[Deck] Armageddon Stax

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Originally Posted by Fred_Bear

Stax does get wrecked by unanswered planeswalkers, no doubt. There is almost no way to combat a resolved Jace or, worse, a Liliana short of Banishing Light/O-Ring. I don't think increasing your 'win' conditions, though, is as effective because it dilutes your Prison versus other decks. If your focus is going to be adding threats, I think MUD or Stompy is a more efficient approach. That's probably where my play style/philosophy differs from yours.

When playing Stax, priority 1 is to slow/lock your opponent. This is ultimately why I prefer 2-5 win conditions, typically diversified (i.e. a manland, a creature, and a planeswalker) as opposed to 10-14 win conditions with 'consistency', i.e. 4-ofs. If I establish a lock, I typically have inevitability that will win. Online I have to deal with a chess clock, and don't have to call a judge for slow play - the opponent can either concede to the lock or try to force me to waste my clock while I attack him 10 times with Magus or 5 times with a Flying Soldier or Batterskull... In paper, call a judge if you are worried about losing to time... I've a lot of times established a lock with Chalice at 1, Trinisphere, Crucible, and a Smokestack at 1 which gets kept in place even against an empty board just passing turn after turn while I find my win condition. It sounds slow, but a win is a win, right?

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So I took this Stax deck to 9th place - didn't crack T8, but I made like $50 at the time:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...r_stax_wi.html

It runs 8 PW'ers, 1 "manland", and an extra 7 ways to tutor for either prison pieces, or win cons. The deck I found to be powerful not because I locked my opponent out, but because I was able to gain a foothold with my prison pieces (The Abyss, Chalice) and finish the game out.

I think Idyllic Tutor is fine - it's both a prison piece (Humility) and a win con (Awakening Zone for now) and is a bit slower, but so flexible for this strategy.

The list I pm'ed you does the same thing - like 8 win cons, and a ton of tutor effects that have the potential to find win cons.

After you imprison someone, you still have to close the game. We both concede that Planeswalkers run rampant against Stax, because they have so many turns to potentially activate. Again, not a problem if you have a good plan to close the game. Imprisoning your opponent is not the same as actually winning. That to me is priority #1, and imprisoning is just a way for you to gain board control in doing so.

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Originally Posted by Fred_Bear

If I'm going to use a 'win' condition in the form of an enchantment (searchable by Idyllic Tutor), why not just run Enchantress? After playing the G/W deck a few times, I think that's the thing, Enchantress is probably a better G/W enchantment-prison deck and has better synergy. And that's where you want to be - with the individual pieces interacting to help one another.

For a Legacy 'Stax' deck, I think it's just like Vintage Shops, the lock is more important than the Smokestack (Shops plays 0 and more recent 'Stax' lists play 2-3). For now, I'm going back to the Armageddon-core of the deck and the list I posted earlier to see where that is lacking... So far, I find it's got good game and three Suppression Field plus three Banishing Lights really slows down decks relying on planeswalkers.

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I don't have an answer to "Why Stax, not enchantress." It can't be answered right now because we don't have a proper list, quite honestly.

Feel free to play what you want to, it's your right as a 'Murican. Go for it. Just as I'm going to play what I want to. I laid out my arguments already, and if you're not interested in brewing, that's fine, too. But Stax is a competitive deck. It's nothing about the meta, sometimes it's about the pilot, but really it's about utilizing the power-level of the cards already printed, and using consistency to leverage that power. Power wins games, but consistency wins tournaments. There is no argument against that, as far as I'm concerned.



As to the guy proposing a "Peace of Mind" deck - put up a Peace of Mind decklist. Kirby's totally right. I'm doubtful as to how competitive it might be, but you'll never know until you try.


EDIT: That UB Stax deck, btw, I finished most rounds in 20 min. I think I went close to time once (I think I lost). It was amazing at the time, for the meta. I could grab a slice of pizza or chicken fingers. Having time to recover is honestly important to keep in mind when you're facing 9+ rounds.

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Originally Posted by frogger42

As to the guy proposing a "Peace of Mind" deck - put up a Peace of Mind decklist.

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As to a decklist, plug in the pieces YOU like but going with peace of mind would probably mean the ensnaring bridge route.

so sad there are only 2 hellbent cards in white and cursed scroll gets locked out by our own chalice.
I had a similar deck way back and used searing meditation and scroll for my win con.

I made this for last night's legacy but got roped into doing christmas "errands" by the wife, so I couldn't play.
between the 4of's and 3of's, juggle what you like and the last few cards were what i had in front of me.


28 lands

3 wasteland
1 God's Eye, gate to the Reikai
4 sea gate wreckage
1 The tabernacle at pendrall vale
2 inventor's fair
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
1 mishra's factory
1 karakas
2 flagstones of trokair
6 plains

32 business cards

4 peace of mind
4 chalice of the void
4 mox diamond
4 crucible of worlds
4 ensnaring bridge
3 trinisphere
3 smokestack
3 armageddon
2 magus of the tabernacle
1 trading post

SB
15 other cards for flavor
but i prefer the helm/leyline of the void, rest in peace transformational sideboard...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by non-inflammable

28 lands

3 wasteland
1 God's Eye, gate to the Reikai
4 sea gate wreckage
1 The tabernacle at pendrall vale
2 inventor's fair
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
1 mishra's factory
1 karakas
2 flagstones of trokair
6 plains

32 business cards

4 peace of mind
4 chalice of the void
4 mox diamond
4 crucible of worlds
4 ensnaring bridge
3 trinisphere
3 smokestack
3 armageddon
2 magus of the tabernacle
1 trading post

SB
15 other cards for flavor
but i prefer the helm/leyline of the void, rest in peace transformational sideboard...

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Hi non-inflammable, thanks for the list. If you want to tinker with it, here are my thoughts. Take them or leave them, but you're here on a public forum, and presumably you're here to take them and learn from them.


So I count 4 win cons in this list, none of which are really breaking the gamestate (ie Goyf, Batterskull). They are:

Mishra's Factory x1 (a 2/2)
God's Eye x1 (potentially a 1/1)
Magus x2 (a 2/6)

(Inventor's Fair does not fetch anything that does damage, not a win con)

In an ideal world, your opponent literally plays nothing. You open with Magus early - Turn 3 (which is avg for this deck). You close the game Turn 13.

How do you win vs 60Island.dec? You will still spend about 15 minutes beating a deck that literally does nothing to you. If they drop a Batterskull, now you're in a race - you need to prison that. Elvish Warrior is also a problem. And if they drop Jace, or Liliana (or Garruk Wildspeaker, any bad Chandra, etc) you cannot deal with that.

I'm sorry if I sound frustrated, but I repeat:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frogger42

Imprisoning your opponent is not the same as actually winning.

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It's not a matter of what the metagame is (you retool a few slots in your deck), or what your opponent does. It's a matter of how you build your deck. How you play it is almost irrelevant, especially if you don't have a competitive deck initially.

I'm a competitive brewer. Which means, simply, I build decks that intend to win against Tier 1 and Tier 1.5 strategies. Not all of them, but enough to get close to T8 in a given tournament. That's what I feel these forums are for: tuning your deck to win. Correct me if I'm wrong.

"Play to win?" No, I'm against that. It's stupid and morally ignorant. But "Brew to Win," that's what I'm about.

Sorry if I'm harsh, but you have to close your games out, here. "Make the opponent scoop" is never a viable option.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by non-inflammable

As to a decklist, plug in the pieces YOU like but going with peace of mind would probably mean the ensnaring bridge route.

so sad there are only 2 hellbent cards in white and cursed scroll gets locked out by our own chalice.
I had a similar deck way back and used searing meditation and scroll for my win con.

I made this for last night's legacy but got roped into doing christmas "errands" by the wife, so I couldn't play.
between the 4of's and 3of's, juggle what you like and the last few cards were what i had in front of me.


28 lands

3 wasteland
1 God's Eye, gate to the Reikai
4 sea gate wreckage
1 The tabernacle at pendrall vale
2 inventor's fair
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
1 mishra's factory
1 karakas
2 flagstones of trokair
6 plains

32 business cards

4 peace of mind
4 chalice of the void
4 mox diamond
4 crucible of worlds
4 ensnaring bridge
3 trinisphere
3 smokestack
3 armageddon
2 magus of the tabernacle
1 trading post

SB
15 other cards for flavor
but i prefer the helm/leyline of the void, rest in peace transformational sideboard...

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I need to make this easier for everyone:

As to a decklist, plug in the pieces YOU like but going with peace of mind would probably mean the ensnaring bridge route.

so sad there are only 2 hellbent cards in white and cursed scroll gets locked out by our own chalice.
I had a similar deck way back and used searing meditation and cursed scroll for my win con.

I made this for last night's legacy but got roped into doing christmas "errands" by the wife, so I couldn't play.
between the 4of's and 3of's, juggle what you like and the last few cards were what i had in front of me.


28 lands


3 wasteland
1 Gods' Eye, gate to the Reikai
4 sea gate wreckage
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Inventors' Fair
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
1 mishra's factory
1 karakas
2 flagstones of trokair
6 plains

32 business cards

4 peace of mind
4 chalice of the void
4 mox diamond
4 crucible of worlds
4 ensnaring bridge
3 trinisphere
3 smokestack
3 armageddon
2 magus of the tabernacle
1 trading post

SB
15 other cards for flavor
but i prefer the helm of obedience/leyline of the void, rest in peace transformational sideboard...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frogger42

"Play to win?" No, I'm against that. It's stupid and morally ignorant.

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totally agree there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frogger42

"Brew to Win," that's what I'm about.

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i enjoy brewing probably more than most MTG players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frogger42

"Make the opponent scoop" is never a viable option.

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"never" is always a viable option...
you have trinisphere in play, smokestack set at 1, crucible of worlds and your opponent has no permanents...


the problem that i saw posed was "how do we get a draw mechanic, try not to dilute the manabase for green too badly and not die to our own tomb activations?"

I answered that question succinctly with no change in the manabase, plays well with smokestack and solves the low-life solution.
the decklist i posted was exploratory but made for the rigors of my weekly legacy gamut.

So I was thinking on the issue of Stax in the state that it is in right now. UB Stax and MUD Stax both seem to get past some issues that we are talking about. UB gains tutors and the use of planes walkers. MUD cuts color, adds generation that counters the increase of cmc, and builds in stompy. Each of these two versions added in their strengths from their own part of the Aether. The focus at the moment is making a build for White Stax other than White Stax Stompy and Armageddon Stax, which from the forum reading I've been doing on the past few days seems to have players less inthralled with the current state of the meta.

I see three different ways to attempt the deck and that is WU WB and WG. Three color deck versions would just be to slow for us to gain early lock pieces and I think we can all agree on that.

WU- amplifies the lock state of white stax, but seems best for aggro decks. ghostly prison and propaganda, magus of the tabernacle and pendrell mists, the moat/humility lock and wheel of sun and moon/energy field lock. This also has cards that work best with artifacts and enchantments which is the permanent base for the deck design. Also there is Narset Transcendent, and with her second ability the tutors become ridicules.

WG- gives us some anti control utilities like choke and dragonlord dromoka and card manipulation like sylvan library. Doesn't seem the best color addition but control decks I think are one of the weak points for this deck and green helps without having to go the route of counter spells mainboards. Stax relies on the opponent being present on the board for interaction and it won't get it for full effect against control decks.

WB- So many control pieces, but I can't think of any actual hard locks. The Abyss and nether void are amazing in the design for Armageddon Stax, but the extra weight of the enchantments I think would require the removal of armageddon. An issue I see with adding Black is the fine line of running into a WB Pox shell build. It also opens the doors to board control that relates well with white while giving deck manipulation white doesn't have.

With this being said I focused on the topic about win conditions needed and planeswalkers.
Kaya, Ghost Assassin
Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Ob Nixilis Reignited
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Vraska the Unseen (Yeah I know GB, but as a 1 of in the deck...maybe useful, especially in the fact we run Moxes)
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath

So these are the usable ones I see that have a way to be used as a win con by themselves given enough time and assist in any particular function. Gideon Jura and his multiple versions are good assault cards, but Im not convinced he can fill in the weak areas the deck has.
Let me know what you think. Im trying to come up with a new design with potential.

Haha, I'm not intelligent enough to figure out how to requote myself here with your responses. But I'm glad we're on the same page as the "Play to Win"ers, and also have a Thirst for Brewing. Just to address the first part of your reply.

As for "make the opponent scoop" - what I said as not a viable option to winning, I guess I have a quick story here:

So storm players are generally on the cutting edge of play skill. In my opinion, anyway. They deal with really complicated math, all the storm players in my LGS are probably the most skilled players, and they know their outs based on what's left in the deck. They really impress me.
So basically, to a Storm player, running 2 Tendrils of Agony, is like riding a bike with training wheels. You only need one to win, and tutor for it, obviously. Basic storm players run 2 (in case it gets exiled) but really, when your 1 Tendrils gets exiled, the Storm player essentially cannot win. They can go through the motions, make you think they can win, but they can't.
Real Storm players have 1 Tendrils, and 1 win con.

This next part pertains especially to Vintage storm players - sometimes they don't even play a Tendrils. Their gameplan is build up enough storm, dodge all the opponent's disruption, then Demonic Tutor (or Infernal Tutor) and then when that resolves, their opponent scoops. They assume they go to grab the Tendrils.

Opponent scooping = viable option.

Except, I know this story. I always ask my Storm opponent to show the Tendrils: play it out. Nobody in my LGS goes free-ballin' with a deck without a win con, because we're all good players and we make them actually win.

Now why might a Storm player not run any win cons in his/her deck? Same reason you never run "training wheels" - it's another slot to build up your storm, either with cantrips or rituals. Makes your deck run a small percentage smoother, but every little number counts, esp in Storm.

Now, your proposed board state:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by non-inflammable

"never" is always a viable option...
you have trinisphere in play, smokestack set at 1, crucible of worlds and your opponent has no permanents...

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Eh, no, I'm going to play it out, guy. Lets see your win con.
Your list almost doesn't run any way to win! If you had 0 win cons, jam more prison effects, what about the opponent who says: "Lets play this out." Why would they say that?
More information. I want to see how you win. I'll SB game 2 against your win con, if I have relevant cards.

And also, a win con doesn't "dilute" your deck. Elspeth plays a weakish prison piece, too. A chump blocker every turn. You play Ghostly Prison with her (or Humility) and suddenly you have a really narrow path to beat the Stax deck. And that's assuming your opponent is placing pressure on you. When your opponent isn't placing pressure on you, what are you doing? Please say you're placing pressure, or outright winning. Because that's the competitive answer.

Moral: Don't run "training wheels," but don't rely on your opponent scooping. Assume your opponent is intelligent, has built their deck correctly, and is smart enough to wait until you win. "Trinisphere, Smokestack, Crucible" - I don't care. Resolve that Elspeth, and I'll scoop. A stalemate is not a win.

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Originally Posted by ghostfire86

So I was thinking on the issue of Stax in the state that it is in right now. UB Stax and MUD Stax both seem to get past some issues that we are talking about. UB gains tutors and the use of planes walkers. MUD cuts color, adds generation that counters the increase of cmc, and builds in stompy. Each of these two versions added in their strengths from their own part of the Aether. The focus at the moment is making a build for White Stax other than White Stax Stompy and Armageddon Stax, which from the forum reading I've been doing on the past few days seems to have players less inthralled with the current state of the meta.

I see three different ways to attempt the deck and that is WU WB and WG. Three color deck versions would just be to slow for us to gain early lock pieces and I think we can all agree on that.

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I think that this is accurate in my experience. Mostly, that "UB gains tutors" especially. Tutor effects and filtering (Sylvan Library, Scroll Rack) are what makes almost every legacy deck viable. The rare exceptions are just straight redundancy (Burn) but both ways solve the problem of consistency. How to make your deck do what it does, in a consistent manner, each game. I'm actually really really glad you said this.

That's why I proposed Idyllic Tutor in Wg. It's a weak tutor, but it does have the potential to either lock your opponent out, or win the game.

And also, I totally agree with the 3-colors are too much theory. 2 is hard enough with Sol-Lands not contributing any mana fixing. Someone would have to solve the shaky manabase, and that person isn't me.

Ghostfire - do you have like 2 Tundras? I actually have a Stax deck that addresses the "which tutors are legacy playable?" part of Stax. If you're interested in goldfishing it / playing it wherever, I'd be happy to send a list. Maybe you can come up with ways to streamline it for your metagame, too.

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Originally Posted by frogger42

Haha, I'm not intelligent enough to figure out how to requote myself here with your responses.

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that took some time for me too, i'm "still" waiting for my wife to get ready to go out.

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Originally Posted by frogger42

So storm players are generally on the cutting edge of play skill. In my opinion.

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mine too.
if i don't play any MB "drag" pieces i should expect to lose quickly and repeatedly to the storm player.
part of my deck building pleasure is building any and every playable legacy deck; storm with one tendrils, too...

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Originally Posted by frogger42

Now, your proposed board state: of trinisphere, smokestack on one and a crucible of worlds
what about the opponent who says: "Lets play this out." Why would they say that?
More information. I want to see how you win. I'll SB game 2 against your win con, if I have relevant cards.

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That's what i'd expect to hear in any competitive environment.
Without slow-play, i would reduce their life total to zero with just a few minutes left on the clock.

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Originally Posted by non-inflammable

That's what i'd expect to hear in any competitive environment.
Without slow-play, i would reduce their life total to zero with just a few minutes left on the clock.

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But when do you go get a soda and a sammich??
*actual legacy concerns*

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Originally Posted by frogger42

So I took this Stax deck to 9th place - didn't crack T8, but I made like $50 at the time:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...r_stax_wi.html

It runs 8 PW'ers, 1 "manland", and an extra 7 ways to tutor for either prison pieces, or win cons. The deck I found to be powerful not because I locked my opponent out, but because I was able to gain a foothold with my prison pieces (The Abyss, Chalice) and finish the game out.

I think Idyllic Tutor is fine - it's both a prison piece (Humility) and a win con (Awakening Zone for now) and is a bit slower, but so flexible for this strategy.

The list I pm'ed you does the same thing - like 8 win cons, and a ton of tutor effects that have the potential to find win cons.

After you imprison someone, you still have to close the game. We both concede that Planeswalkers run rampant against Stax, because they have so many turns to potentially activate. Again, not a problem if you have a good plan to close the game. Imprisoning your opponent is not the same as actually winning. That to me is priority #1, and imprisoning is just a way for you to gain board control in doing so.

I don't have an answer to "Why Stax, not enchantress." It can't be answered right now because we don't have a proper list, quite honestly.

EDIT: That UB Stax deck, btw, I finished most rounds in 20 min. I think I went close to time once (I think I lost). It was amazing at the time, for the meta. I could grab a slice of pizza or chicken fingers. Having time to recover is honestly important to keep in mind when you're facing 9+ rounds.

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Forgive me, as I'm going to bounce around a bit based on all the responses...

I think it's hard to compare some of the different flavors of Prison, especially in the context of the 'Armageddon (or generally white) Stax' thread. There are a number of similarities, though. As you point out, you establish a foothold (in this deck, typically 2 pieces like Armageddon plus Trinisphere or similar) and then win. I agree that you do have to finish your opponent, obviously, but I have had no problems finishing with 3-6 finishers in a deck. I also play solely on MTGO, so I have a chess clock and don't have to care about my opponent's slow play (it only costs him). I would assume in paper, you just need to talk to a judge, but it's never come up for me. When I play, I'm looking for inevitability (on both sides). If I put him in a position where he can't do anything, it doesn't matter if I have 20 win-con, I'm going to win. I'll expand in response to another post later...

The difference between Idyllic Tutor and Intuition should be obvious. Idyllic Tutor could be strong because the format pays attention to artifacts, but not enchantments (seems odd for as long as Miracles has been a top deck). At that point, though, you should play Enchantress. Lock - check, Finishers - check. There's really no reason to play Smokestack when you have access to better locks and taxes. It's a very synergistic deck (and they don't even play Idyllic Tutor). For this deck, Golden Wish would be awesome if it cost W2 and Enlightened Tutor could be good if you can get over the Chalice interaction. I know you are against 'anti-synergy', but with how weak Chalice is right now, Enlightened Tutor may be worth it as a 1- or 2-of. It may be worth testing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by non-inflammable

As to a decklist, plug in the pieces YOU like but going with peace of mind would probably mean the ensnaring bridge route.

so sad there are only 2 hellbent cards in white and cursed scroll gets locked out by our own chalice.
I had a similar deck way back and used searing meditation and scroll for my win con.

I made this for last night's legacy but got roped into doing christmas "errands" by the wife, so I couldn't play.
between the 4of's and 3of's, juggle what you like and the last few cards were what i had in front of me.


28 lands

3 wasteland
1 God's Eye, gate to the Reikai
4 sea gate wreckage
1 The tabernacle at pendrall vale
2 inventor's fair
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
1 mishra's factory
1 karakas
2 flagstones of trokair
6 plains

32 business cards

4 peace of mind
4 chalice of the void
4 mox diamond
4 crucible of worlds
4 ensnaring bridge
3 trinisphere
3 smokestack
3 armageddon
2 magus of the tabernacle
1 trading post

SB
15 other cards for flavor
but i prefer the helm/leyline of the void, rest in peace transformational sideboard...

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Interesting list. I'd be curious to hear how it plays for you. I'd want to see how hard it is to get a lock into place and maintain it. If your focus is Peace of Mind / Ensnaring Bridge, I would drop the Armageddon and I might even go the direction of the colorless stax that put up results a couple months ago (Metalworker Combo Stax). The transformational sideboard also has me intrigued. What would the maindeck look like with the combo? I think the difficulty for game 2 is that any and all hate is in your opponent's deck at that point. Would it matter if you are on the play or draw?

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Originally Posted by frogger42

It's not a matter of what the metagame is (you retool a few slots in your deck), or what your opponent does. It's a matter of how you build your deck. How you play it is almost irrelevant, especially if you don't have a competitive deck initially.

I'm a competitive brewer. Which means, simply, I build decks that intend to win against Tier 1 and Tier 1.5 strategies. Not all of them, but enough to get close to T8 in a given tournament. That's what I feel these forums are for: tuning your deck to win. Correct me if I'm wrong.

"Play to win?" No, I'm against that. It's stupid and morally ignorant. But "Brew to Win," that's what I'm about.

Sorry if I'm harsh, but you have to close your games out, here. "Make the opponent scoop" is never a viable option.

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I don't think I completely agree with your premise. You can build to a point, but you have to playtest and gain a familiarity with the deck. You keep talking about the anti-synergy with Armageddon in Stax, but it exists. I think if you played and gained some familiarity, you would see it. Several of the decks you have piloted to success require knowlege and playskill - not just a good build.

I agree that you shouldn't ever expect an opponent to scoop, but getting to a point of inevitability is basically how Magic is played. You (or your opponent) can continue to play it out, or ask about a win-con, but that's an individual decision.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frogger42

As for "make the opponent scoop" - what I said as not a viable option to winning, I guess I have a quick story here:

So storm players are generally on the cutting edge of play skill. In my opinion, anyway. They deal with really complicated math, all the storm players in my LGS are probably the most skilled players, and they know their outs based on what's left in the deck. They really impress me.
So basically, to a Storm player, running 2 Tendrils of Agony, is like riding a bike with training wheels. You only need one to win, and tutor for it, obviously. Basic storm players run 2 (in case it gets exiled) but really, when your 1 Tendrils gets exiled, the Storm player essentially cannot win. They can go through the motions, make you think they can win, but they can't.
Real Storm players have 1 Tendrils, and 1 win con.

This next part pertains especially to Vintage storm players - sometimes they don't even play a Tendrils. Their gameplan is build up enough storm, dodge all the opponent's disruption, then Demonic Tutor (or Infernal Tutor) and then when that resolves, their opponent scoops. They assume they go to grab the Tendrils.

Opponent scooping = viable option.

Except, I know this story. I always ask my Storm opponent to show the Tendrils: play it out. Nobody in my LGS goes free-ballin' with a deck without a win con, because we're all good players and we make them actually win.

Now why might a Storm player not run any win cons in his/her deck? Same reason you never run "training wheels" - it's another slot to build up your storm, either with cantrips or rituals. Makes your deck run a small percentage smoother, but every little number counts, esp in Storm.

Now, your proposed board state:



Eh, no, I'm going to play it out, guy. Lets see your win con.
Your list almost doesn't run any way to win! If you had 0 win cons, jam more prison effects, what about the opponent who says: "Lets play this out." Why would they say that?
More information. I want to see how you win. I'll SB game 2 against your win con, if I have relevant cards.

And also, a win con doesn't "dilute" your deck. Elspeth plays a weakish prison piece, too. A chump blocker every turn. You play Ghostly Prison with her (or Humility) and suddenly you have a really narrow path to beat the Stax deck. And that's assuming your opponent is placing pressure on you. When your opponent isn't placing pressure on you, what are you doing? Please say you're placing pressure, or outright winning. Because that's the competitive answer.

Moral: Don't run "training wheels," but don't rely on your opponent scooping. Assume your opponent is intelligent, has built their deck correctly, and is smart enough to wait until you win. "Trinisphere, Smokestack, Crucible" - I don't care. Resolve that Elspeth, and I'll scoop. A stalemate is not a win.

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I think the moral of the story is don't plan on your opponent sucking. It's reasonable to not 'expect' an opponent to scoop, but, at the same time, if you want to stick it out while I hit you 10 times with a Magus, go for it. Again, in my experience online, it takes up about 2 minutes of my clock. I would call a judge if your turn takes more than 30 seconds.

Also, Ghostly Prison won't protect your Elspeth. It stops creatures from hitting you - not a planeswalker you control. Elspeth isn't even a weak prison piece without help. I'm not suggesting he's not playable, just not quite as durable as your post makes it sound.

I think you pointed it out earlier, this deck needs a way to be more consistent to make it through a large tournament because there are a lot of games where your opponent can't apply pressure, but you durdle for 10 turns trying to find something relevant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ghostfire86

So I was thinking on the issue of Stax in the state that it is in right now. UB Stax and MUD Stax both seem to get past some issues that we are talking about. UB gains tutors and the use of planes walkers. MUD cuts color, adds generation that counters the increase of cmc, and builds in stompy. Each of these two versions added in their strengths from their own part of the Aether. The focus at the moment is making a build for White Stax other than White Stax Stompy and Armageddon Stax, which from the forum reading I've been doing on the past few days seems to have players less inthralled with the current state of the meta.

I see three different ways to attempt the deck and that is WU WB and WG. Three color deck versions would just be to slow for us to gain early lock pieces and I think we can all agree on that.

WU- amplifies the lock state of white stax, but seems best for aggro decks. ghostly prison and propaganda, magus of the tabernacle and pendrell mists, the moat/humility lock and wheel of sun and moon/energy field lock. This also has cards that work best with artifacts and enchantments which is the permanent base for the deck design. Also there is Narset Transcendent, and with her second ability the tutors become ridicules.

WG- gives us some anti control utilities like choke and dragonlord dromoka and card manipulation like sylvan library. Doesn't seem the best color addition but control decks I think are one of the weak points for this deck and green helps without having to go the route of counter spells mainboards. Stax relies on the opponent being present on the board for interaction and it won't get it for full effect against control decks.

WB- So many control pieces, but I can't think of any actual hard locks. The Abyss and nether void are amazing in the design for Armageddon Stax, but the extra weight of the enchantments I think would require the removal of armageddon. An issue I see with adding Black is the fine line of running into a WB Pox shell build. It also opens the doors to board control that relates well with white while giving deck manipulation white doesn't have.

With this being said I focused on the topic about win conditions needed and planeswalkers.
Kaya, Ghost Assassin
Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Ob Nixilis Reignited
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Vraska the Unseen (Yeah I know GB, but as a 1 of in the deck...maybe useful, especially in the fact we run Moxes)
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath

So these are the usable ones I see that have a way to be used as a win con by themselves given enough time and assist in any particular function. Gideon Jura and his multiple versions are good assault cards, but Im not convinced he can fill in the weak areas the deck has.
Let me know what you think. Im trying to come up with a new design with potential.

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UW - I'm tinkering here. I hadn't thought about Narset, but I think it has a lot of potential. It's much more efficient at creating a lock with a Moat in place. You still need a 'win', as has been discussed, but it gives you quite a clock.

WG - I'm in the boat that I don't think it's good enough to be really competitive, at least in a Stax shell. If you want this color combination, go the road of Enchantress.

WB - I'm not sure what you would gain from W here that U wouldn't do better or B doesn't already do.

As far as planeswalkers go, I think Jace, Tezz (probably a different deck altogether), Elspeth, Liliana, and, maybe, Gideon and Narset are your limits.

W/R which you didn't mention would also have Nahiri which could be interesting in a Stax shell as well...

Hello again Fred_Bear! I wanted to highlight a few things you said:

To sum up, you feel Wg Stax will probably be inferior to Enchantress. I'm suspecting this might be true. But, for me, the only way you can really check this out is to build a Wg Stax, playtest it, get a really rough-working shell, and then compare the two. This is a very minor point about the difference between the two, and not going to decide which one's better either way, but: Stax is capable of running out a prison piece T1 (Chalice, sometimes Trini), and Enchantress doesn't have access to T1 interaction or disruption. I think, without playable lists, this is about the only comparison I can really come up with between the two, but I think there's something to be gained by building Wg Stax, playtesting it a bit, and then comparing the results (and esp playstyle) to Enchantress.
And yeah, Enchantress does have very clear synergy between the pieces, and Stax pieces are more held together by an overarching Prison playstyle (than direct synergy, ie like Affinity for artifacts), I'm not positive which synergy in practice tends to be better! I think it takes playtesting, tbh.

Ghostly Prison doesn't protect Elspeth. Sometimes I say too much and overlook the obvious stuff, haha. But what I wanted to say was: certain prison effects really synergize with your win cons, too, and a wincon like Elspeth can also help you stabilize the board, just like a prison piece. The garbo Awakening Zone again, just feels so boss with Humility! Obv. Magus of Tabby and Armageddon work on the same principle - Tabby is a win con that synergizes well with Armageddon. Batterskull is bonkers for Humility (and coo-coo for Sylvan Library). It stabilizes most Humility board states, and wins you the game. And I like tutors because, again, if they search out a prison piece or a wincon, then you can affect your boardstate optimally - Prison to stabilize, wincon to close.

Golden Wish. Yes, I totally blanked on this card. And to a lesser extent, Living Wish, too. Awesome catch - Golden has a slew of powerful PW'ers to hit up, in addition to random prison pieces like Glare of Subdual.
It's likely more powerful than Idyllic Tutor...? But I.T. gets Humility, too...? And also shuffles your deck for your Sylvan Library...? Playtesting will tell, if you can scrap together a decent Wish board to test with.

My main concern about running I.T. in the first place was to bring some consistency to the deck. I'd try to stay away from Enlightened Tutor, mostly because of Chalice, but also because I'd rather jam 4x of a decent tutor, not 2x. There's so little filtering and finding in Stax!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fred_Bear

There's really no reason to play Smokestack when you have access to better locks and taxes.

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Actually, let me quote you this way:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fred_Bear

There's really no reason to play Smokestack

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HAHAHA, sorry. I just personally HATE Smokestack. It's the biggest durdle ever attempted to play. Storm Crow gets there as fast.

I almost feel like pulling this completely out of context and misquoting you, hahaha. Throw it into my sig. But yeah, play Stack if you want to, I've got a vendetta against this card. Carry on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frogger42

I think that this is accurate in my experience. Mostly, that "UB gains tutors" especially. Tutor effects and filtering (Sylvan Library, Scroll Rack) are what makes almost every legacy deck viable. The rare exceptions are just straight redundancy (Burn) but both ways solve the problem of consistency. How to make your deck do what it does, in a consistent manner, each game. I'm actually really really glad you said this.

That's why I proposed Idyllic Tutor in Wg. It's a weak tutor, but it does have the potential to either lock your opponent out, or win the game.

And also, I totally agree with the 3-colors are too much theory. 2 is hard enough with Sol-Lands not contributing any mana fixing. Someone would have to solve the shaky manabase, and that person isn't me.

Ghostfire - do you have like 2 Tundras? I actually have a Stax deck that addresses the "which tutors are legacy playable?" part of Stax. If you're interested in goldfishing it / playing it wherever, I'd be happy to send a list. Maybe you can come up with ways to streamline it for your metagame, too.

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No I don't have tundra at this time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ghostfire86

No I don't have tundra at this time.

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Nuts. Like Stax and other control decks tend to be unable to swap actual duals for shocklands. Like especially because of Crucible of Worlds - taking 4 from a Hallowed Fountain and Ancient Tomb makes it almost impossible to stabilize.

Anyway, if you can get your hands on 2 Tundras, buying or borrowing, the rest of my list is fairly cheap to put together. If you're interested.

And not to plug, but I do have rev. Tundras for sale, too. If you ultimately want to keep the deck built.

Is the list you mentioned with 3 Supp Field and 3 Banishing Light your current Stax build? If so, mind posting it?

Re: closing out a game, I find that competitive players often scoop when the writing's on the wall. There will always be people who make you play it out so I wouldn't go into any event with 0 wincons, but generally speaking your opponent wants to go to the bathroom or get a snack as much as you do. That said, getting the full Stax lock has been rather rare in my experience, so I tend towards more wincons just to simultaneously land threats and lock pieces and pressure them on both sides. This is another reason I'd love to see your list: if your deck not only depends on getting a hard lock but frequently achieves it, that's something I'd love to see.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frogger42

Golden Wish. Yes, I totally blanked on this card. And to a lesser extent, Living Wish, too. Awesome catch - Golden has a slew of powerful PW'ers to hit up, in addition to random prison pieces like Glare of Subdual.
It's likely more powerful than Idyllic Tutor...? But I.T. gets Humility, too...? And also shuffles your deck for your Sylvan Library...? Playtesting will tell, if you can scrap together a decent Wish board to test with.

My main concern about running I.T. in the first place was to bring some consistency to the deck. I'd try to stay away from Enlightened Tutor, mostly because of Chalice, but also because I'd rather jam 4x of a decent tutor, not 2x. There's so little filtering and finding in Stax!

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So on the topic of tutors, here are my thoughts...

Golden Wish is too expensive and too slow. You need 5 mana plus the mana to cast a 3-4 CMC spell (unless you wait until the following turn). In my opinion, if you can afford that amount of time for 'set-up' it's going to play out as 'win-more' in practice. A wish board wouldn't be hard to come up with and, between the sorcery speed and mana cost, you are going to have to run more mana rocks/lands for ramp which means cutting lock pieces out of the deck. I've not tested it, but based on the games I've played with various Stax lists, that's where it feels it will end up.

Idyllic Tutor is still too slow. This card appears attractive because it's 'only' 3 mana, but it's 3 mana plus 3-4 CMC for the enchantment you grab. There are really only a couple enchantments that are worth grabbing (note Awakening Zone isn't one) and none that provide an immediate win. Honestly, as I've said, to go this route would either (1) push you towards Enchantress (Turn 1 Exploration into Turn 2 brokeness) or (2) make you want to test some sort of Heliod, God of the Sun deck. I don't think that's good either.

Enlightened Tutor has terrible synergy with the preferred Turn 1 Chalice of the Void at 1. After playing the deck again, I'm no longer convinced of this. I think I'm going to run through the numbers and look at some of the percentages, but I don't think the synergy is as bad as it once was. I have played a lot of games where (a) your early Chalice of the Void gets either countered or (b) meets an Abrupt Decay or (c) you don't see a Chalice of the Void until Turn 6-8. Enlightened Tutor also provides some flexibility in that the mana cost is low and can be played on the opponent's turn. Even with a Trinisphere out, the worst case is an instant-speed Idyllic Tutor which speeds you up by about a turn...

Intuition hasn't really been discussed. I understand it requires a splash, but it gets everything and could open us up to quite a few powerful options as well as the consistency we need. I'm torn right now on whether including this would push you into Blue-splash white (for what, though? Armageddon?) or Blue-splash black (for what, though? Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas?). It's an idea anyways... Blue has gotten a lot of tool lately...

I'm going to test a few games with a couple Enlightened Tutor because I can do so cheaply online. I may also tinker a little with Intuition, but I think that will be a steeper learning curve for me.

Inventors' Fair didn't really get a mention as I've found that it's too narrow, too expensive, and would require more artifacts. As it has been, any activation has been to find the Bottled Cloister to give a little kick. I think it works much better in an Ensnaring Bridge deck.

Fred_Bear -

I like that you consolidated basically all of the tutors we've been discussing so far. It definitely addresses issues of consistency with a non-Brainstorm deck, and whichever finisher you go with (Elspeth, Jace, Magus), I think that choice is almost secondary to the choice of Filter, Tutors and Tutor packages. There are plenty of Stax-worthy finishers, but only the handful of Tutors, really.

Golden Wish - I did attempt a WGx deck with Golden Wish. I forget what the exact list was, and I only played it a couple weeks, but the reason Wish is so slow is that it's super color-intensive. The next card it grabs is also certainly color-intensive. In a deck with 8 Sol-Lands, Wasteland, etc etc, I don't think I've ever been able to Wish for anything and cast it that same turn - basically you're looking at WWGG (and some colorless) to get it off the ground.

Idyllic Tutor can let you rely more on your Sol Lands to get stuff out, but optimally, fetching a Ghostly Prison is WW4. Which, in regard to Stax, is actually pretty fine. I think the real drawback is that it's not an instant.

Intuition I've played, and it's easily the most powerful card in my Stax deck, when built right. That it's an instant, unlike Idyllic, means you can hold open U2 during your opponent's turn, fetch something to respond to their play (Jace or Goyf or whatever), and then turn around and lock out that threat during your turn. It's not quite "haste," but it effectively feels like Idyllic Tutor with haste.
Also, the most common item to fetch is Crucible of Worlds x3. That's a U5 casting cost, effectively, which Stax loves. Significantly better than WW4. (Chalice is another hot option, too.) And if you already have Crucible online, your lines of play with Intuition go INSANE.

I try not to fetch things with Intuition that I cannot recur later in the game - Planeswalkers, Enchantments, etc. Only if I can win right on the spot with that kind of card. Academy Ruinsx1 also breaks Intuition in so many ways.

And Fred_Bear, you're aware that I'm also a big fan of Tolaria West. Early Tol Wests you either ditch to Mox Diamond, or run out tapped if you have no Chalice play. Mid-late game, they're lands that double as busted spells - and tap for relevant color. Triple threat.

I guess while I'm at it, the thing I like about Stax is that so many of its lands are also, basically, spells. Wasteland, Inventors' Fair, Tolaria West, even Karakas to some extent. I can basically keep 95% of my opening hands based on "I have mana, I can cast spells" - and manaflooding is fine, especially because that Tolaria West now becomes something relevant. Or the Wasteland tempos your opponent so you see another draw. Delver, Tempo decks don't have this advantage. Neither does Elves, Burn, anything else in the aggro field. They can't afford to manaflood, or manascrew, and are always getting greedy with taking out just one more land for just one more spell. We can do the opposite and still affect the board state.

Running a ton of lands is a good way to beat opposing Wastelands, too. Ha! Just something you'll note while playing the deck, that almost every hand is a keep. Aggressive mulligans are def possible, but totally unnecessary.

It's kind of the same theory when you play Lands.dec. Trick is finding lands that also color-fix while they do relevant things.

Just an idea

http://www.essentialmagic.com/Decks/View.asp?ID=1050347

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ghostfire86

Just an idea

http://www.essentialmagic.com/Decks/View.asp?ID=1050347

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I'm going to say this about the deck: this is actually a really cool, and maybe even really good, idea.

I've never considered breaking Energy Field by throwing it in a prison shell. Most attempts with playing it have been "Let's put it in a Brainstorm deck." I'm going to say, you're absolutely right, here, you want something powerful like Energy Field to be inherently useful, not just useful in a specific situation (only with RiP in play).

So, just to clarify, what I like about this deck is that it uses a prison style way to get ahead - Prison permanents - and that playstyle inherently synergizes with Energy Field, which hates Instants and Sorceries. So: max out your Enchants and Artifacts that do stuff. I'll be honest, I haven't seen anyone take this approach with Energy Field.

I wouldn't goldfish this deck just yet. I do have a couple concerns. Like I said, my strength is actually building manabases. This is what I notice about yours: I don't think you have enough color fixing. If you want to run "splash" colors (ie W1, as opposed to WW) I go off the #s in Tempo decks, specifically for Blue, their main color. So I try to stick to about 14 sources if I want to run things like Rest in Peace, Ghosty Prison, etc. At a minimum.

For cards like Elspeth/Jace TMS, that are color intensive... it's more complicated, of course. Maybe look at Miracles (Counterbalance, Jace are both UU). But I think it really only takes something like 17 sources, and you stand a really good chance of casting your UU stuff mid-late game.

I'm going to make a HORRIBLE suggestion, but these cards are technically legacy-playable: Azorious Signet and Talisman of Progress. Or whatever the UW Talisman is. These might help, but why I don't like them is that they only mana-fix, and don't make great top-decks, unlike Tolaria West, Wasteland, etc.

Also, and this hurts, but Mox Diamond could be Chrome Mox instead. You want U and W, yes, but you also don't want to kill your own Energy Field. This is a "playtest them both" kind of moment. Also, Chrome Mox goes toward your land count, and Mox Diamond doesn't, because you don't recur the lands you discard.

And lastly, also about the manabase: Sol Lands obv work best with artifacts. They also work really well with casting costs like Ghostly Prison and Propaganda. This is the main reason Stax manabases run Chalice of the Void - this is the most powerful card at CMC 2 you can cast in Legacy. It just happens to be a Prison piece. A big part of your deck - Enlightened Tutor, RiP, Energy Field - don't benefit from your Sol Lands. This is something of a smaller point, but consider that if you're sacrificing City of Traitors or taking 8 dmg from Ancient Tomb that you don't need to set yourself back with this kind of manabase.

That said, I think you've got a really great idea here, and even in a Stax manabase, you're right: you don't need to run Chalice of the Void. Experiment the sh!t out of this deck.

I think the easiest way to break Energy Field, with almost no real effort, is to retool Enchantress (which runs almost all permanents, anyway) and jam some # of copies in there. I think your rough build here, though, also deserves a shot and may find it's even more powerful than in Enchantress, and could make it powerful enough to define a new deck.

Some minor spell choices - Ghostly Prison doesn't protect Jace or any planeswalker. (I know, Fred_Bear reminded me, too, haha.) Neither does Energy Field - a dead Jace also kills your Energy Field (big reason why UW Miracles decks stopped running Energy Field). Just swap JTMS with True-Name Nemesis, though... and I think you're onto a powerful new strategy. Maybe even a Jitte, too.

Terminus - maybe make it Moat / Humility? Again, this deck doesn't really like Sorceries and Instants. But it does want something like The Abyss. Or Porphyry Nodes

Or maybe make it a Jitte for TNN. SFM is easily killable, but you might also Tezz the Seeker for Jitte, and for your Helm, too. Just throwing stuff out there.

This is pretty exciting, though! I hope these things I've noticed about your deck helps you brew it!


EDIT 1: Didn't spell Poryphyry Nodes correctly

EDIT 2: Porphyry Nodes is literally impossible to spell

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frogger42

I'm going to say this about the deck: this is actually a really cool, and maybe even really good, idea.

I've never considered breaking Energy Field by throwing it in a prison shell. Most attempts with playing it have been "Let's put it in a Brainstorm deck." I'm going to say, you're absolutely right, here, you want something powerful like Energy Field to be inherently useful, not just useful in a specific situation (only with RiP in play).

So, just to clarify, what I like about this deck is that it uses a prison style way to get ahead - Prison permanents - and that playstyle inherently synergizes with Energy Field, which hates Instants and Sorceries. So: max out your Enchants and Artifacts that do stuff. I'll be honest, I haven't seen anyone take this approach with Energy Field.

I wouldn't goldfish this deck just yet. I do have a couple concerns. Like I said, my strength is actually building manabases. This is what I notice about yours: I don't think you have enough color fixing. If you want to run "splash" colors (ie W1, as opposed to WW) I go off the #s in Tempo decks, specifically for Blue, their main color. So I try to stick to about 14 sources if I want to run things like Rest in Peace, Ghosty Prison, etc. At a minimum.

For cards like Elspeth/Jace TMS, that are color intensive... it's more complicated, of course. Maybe look at Miracles (Counterbalance, Jace are both UU). But I think it really only takes something like 17 sources, and you stand a really good chance of casting your UU stuff mid-late game.

I'm going to make a HORRIBLE suggestion, but these cards are technically legacy-playable: Azorious Signet and Talisman of Progress. Or whatever the UW Talisman is. These might help, but why I don't like them is that they only mana-fix, and don't make great top-decks, unlike Tolaria West, Wasteland, etc.

Also, and this hurts, but Mox Diamond could be Chrome Mox instead. You want U and W, yes, but you also don't want to kill your own Energy Field. This is a "playtest them both" kind of moment. Also, Chrome Mox goes toward your land count, and Mox Diamond doesn't, because you don't recur the lands you discard.

And lastly, also about the manabase: Sol Lands obv work best with artifacts. They also work really well with casting costs like Ghostly Prison and Propaganda. This is the main reason Stax manabases run Chalice of the Void - this is the most powerful card at CMC 2 you can cast in Legacy. It just happens to be a Prison piece. A big part of your deck - Enlightened Tutor, RiP, Energy Field - don't benefit from your Sol Lands. This is something of a smaller point, but consider that if you're sacrificing City of Traitors or taking 8 dmg from Ancient Tomb that you don't need to set yourself back with this kind of manabase.

That said, I think you've got a really great idea here, and even in a Stax manabase, you're right: you don't need to run Chalice of the Void. Experiment the sh!t out of this deck.

I think the easiest way to break Energy Field, with almost no real effort, is to retool Enchantress (which runs almost all permanents, anyway) and jam some # of copies in there. I think your rough build here, though, also deserves a shot and may find it's even more powerful than in Enchantress, and could make it powerful enough to define a new deck.

Some minor spell choices - Ghostly Prison doesn't protect Jace or any planeswalker. (I know, Fred_Bear reminded me, too, haha.) Neither does Energy Field - a dead Jace also kills your Energy Field (big reason why UW Miracles decks stopped running Energy Field). Just swap JTMS with True-Name Nemesis, though... and I think you're onto a powerful new strategy. Maybe even a Jitte, too.

Terminus - maybe make it Moat / Humility? Again, this deck doesn't really like Sorceries and Instants. But it does want something like The Abyss. Or Porphyry Nodes

Or maybe make it a Jitte for TNN. SFM is easily killable, but you might also Tezz the Seeker for Jitte, and for your Helm, too. Just throwing stuff out there.

This is pretty exciting, though! I hope these things I've noticed about your deck helps you brew it!


EDIT 1: Didn't spell Poryphyry Nodes correctly

EDIT 2: Porphyry Nodes is literally impossible to spell

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The mana base I spent almost no time on as of yet. I just wanted something to gloss the list up for initial presentation, and same with the SB. true-name nemesis is a fantastic idea. I was hoping the build with 6 prisons and the winter orb could protect Jace to ultimate and still have the option to bounce creatures and ect.

A cross between enchantments and artifacts leaves enlightened tutor to be the best pick, but will require timing and planning to cast at the end of the opponents turn with knowing you can drop the item after your draw. Control decks love the heads up which sux but trinisphere should help pressure them into deciding how to cast between control or setting their field(all of which is usually 2 cost or less for most of their deck).

Crucible, chalice, and smokestack have all been cut, but I tried to keep it near the prison form.