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I'm also trying out Shining Shoal in the board for the next one as well. As for the Slaver, would be great to see Elspeth at 8, take over, play another Elspeth from their hand...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ectoplasm
And yeah, I still want to work in Tsabo's Decree somehow. Too mana intensive and counter bait, but wouldn't hurt to try it out.
I wish I had a larger Legacy scene in my state so I could test some ideas I have. Has anyone tried to abuse Gifts Ungiven in this deck? Finding room for it wouldn't be hard if you run 3 Fact or Fictions; just cut one of them for a Gifts. (If you run 2 FoFs I'm not sure what you would cut...because I really think you should be playing 2 FoFs!) You can use it along with Tolaria West (which some people already use) to set up Crucible + Waste or Academy Ruins + EE. That seems pretty good and doesn't change the deck at all.
Going a little further, if you run Enlightened and/or Mystical Tutor, you can set up some downright savage Gifts piles.
Like I said, I wish I could test this myself before throwing the idea at you guys. Or maybe the Vintage player inside me just wants to use Gifts in Legacy :tongue:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEATROCKET
The problem with Gifts is the same problem Intuition, it's slooooowww, mana-intensive, and is reliant on the graveyard. While they both are powerful, Fact or Fiction is just better since it's better when you are behind. It also requires you to play green for Life from the Loam, a second Academy Ruins, or a second Tolaria West, which aren't very enticing options.
Quote:
Me, earlier on Intuition:
Often when I was playing the UWg list, I found myself finding half of a lock piece when I had the other in my hand, so Tolaria West would've done essential the same thing.
The "Planeswalker uniqueness rule" doesn't destroy them, it puts them into the graveyard:Quote:
As for the Slaver, would be great to see Elspeth at 8, take over, play another Elspeth from their hand...
Regardless, if you have Elspeth at eight in the control mirror, chances are you are going to win without the Mindslaver.Quote:
704.5j If two or more planeswalkers that share a planeswalker type are on the battlefield, all are put into their owners' graveyards. This is called the "planeswalker uniqueness rule."
What I was trying to say was if they have their Elspeth at 8, it can be a way to take advantage of the Mindslaver should they have another in their hand. Another situation on the long list of things that you could do Post-Slaver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn
The reason that's a little more appealing is because I don't run Vindicate, so I need another outing against Planeswalkers.
I wonder if I could run only 2 EE/1 Disk and make EE #3 into MS. Might go up to 24 lands to support this. Gah.
Why would you have 4 Negates in your sideboard when you could have 3 Negates and a Spell Snare?Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
Well, if we're talking about Game 1, then with that build, you really cant Wish->Tutor and search up Humility, mainly because you dont have one in the maindeck. Also, Spell Snares counter Price of Progress... for those rare few times you only have 4 mana open. Spell Snare also doesn't get Krosan Gripped, unlike Humility.
If he worries about the mirror match, maybe the 3/3 split is enough. I'd probably drop 1 negate 1 etutor (not really useful in this build) for 2 extirpate, and drop that humility for vedalken shackles, which is less dead in mirror matches and is good as 1-of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
SB: 3 [MOR] Negate
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [CNF] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 [FNM] Engineered Plague
Much more solid SB, maybe there's room somewhere for another fof, if he wishes to add jace MD (dropping 1/2 fof).
since goblins, sligh, goyf sligh are our more difficult matchups, would warmth be a useful sb card?
If you really want to dedicate slots to hating red I think COP: Red or Chill would be the superior options.
Sphere of Law probably has the most impact, certainly I like it better than keeping infinite mana open for COP. Chill is pretty sad against goblins and not THAT amazing against burn-y decks unless you draw multiples (it's not like you're going to win a race by slowing them down, you're landstill FFS).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ectoplasm
Probably BEB/Hydroblast are still the best overall since they're randomly useful elsewhere (Dragon Stompy, some storm combo, some loam decks), but if it's burn spells specifically you want to beat (as opposed to goblins), try Sun Droplet.
@Citrus: I said I expect a lot of blue based control which is why I added the 4th negate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
I'm not even completly sure why we are talking about terrible cards like mindslaver in landstill at all. There are better cards I would want to see if we are talking about the mirror in general. In a lot of matches you don't even have academy ruins out b/c of wasteland for the most part, so you want to play cards that will give you the tempo/card advantage because thats all what the mirror is about.
I would not want to pay 6 mana for a spell that doesn't win you the game. Unless you get recurring mindslavers, I don't see how this card is even good, especially in legacy.
Fixed. :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH
Oh and btw Mindslaver is awful. If you're resolving a 6 cc sorcery speed spell with a 4cc acivation cost you're already winning the game..
hmm i guess pulse, well i'm already playing pulse but keeping mana open to pulse when I'm low on life against burn is really annoying and they just wait till I pulse to in response fireblast or pop/ fork reb the crap out of me. Perhaps ajani goldmane is the best after all.. haha after all that card discussion we just end up where we started
That tends to happen a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteshepherdman
nickrit2000
You don't see how this card is even good?Quote:
I would not want to pay 6 mana for a spell that doesn't win you the game. Unless you get recurring mindslavers, I don't see how this card is even good, especially in legacy.
Vintage Lists
Extended Tron var.
As you can see Slavor is a premier control concept in big mana lists format-wide. Now obviously tron and the fast mana of vintage play alot differently then Landstill does. This means that Landstill shouldn't play such a slow card in a format that can end matches with t1 top t2 CB. What I am suggesting is that slaver be placed in the sideboard as a true answer to the mirror match, MUC, and others. The other option is that we play a 3rd decree, but honestly i'm done playing safe cards and honestly I think this is the overall-better choice.
-What are the odd's that an opponent recovers from a Mind Slaver "Crack" in the mirror/ control matchup?
Elfrago
Thats not true at all in the mirror match as well as in other matchups that have 90 stall cards and 3 win conditions. The idea is that you need to find cards that get around their (Window) and think outside the box in order to establish a level of control in specific matchups.Quote:
Oh and btw Mindslaver is awful. If you're resolving a 6 cc sorcery speed spell with a 4cc acivation cost you're already winning the game..
This is why Geoff uses creative intelligance/thinking to win unfavorable matchups. Cards like Lilliana/preacher didn't come from just randomly thinking a card is good (For the most part.)
Also another note:
What does every control deck want in the mirror/ other control matchups?
Answer: Inevitability.
Edit:
Also keep in mind that the red zone is not what dictates the Control Matchup/ its the card quality
Quote:
What I was trying to say was if they have their Elspeth at 8, it can be a way to take advantage of the Mindslaver should they have another in their hand. Another situation on the long list of things that you could do Post-Slaver.
Ah, my bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
You do know why those lists play Slaver? They can play them unfairly, either with their Goblin Welders or Tron lands. If they didn't have either of these, they wouldn't play Mindslaver. Landstill doesn't have either of those. There are other cards you could play sideboard or maindeck that you'd rather play to give you inevitability, while being not completely worthless in non-control matchups, such as Crucible of Worlds, more Decrees, more planeswalkers, Eternal Dragon, hell, even Haunting Echoes.
If you resolve Slaver against MUC, you were going to win already, since:Quote:
What I am suggesting is that slaver be placed in the sideboard as a true answer to the mirror match, MUC, and others.
- You hand 6 lands untapped to cast it, which means most likely Back to Basics is off the table. That card is what the matchup hinges on; if it stays in play landstill is a dog, if not it has the advantage due to Decree, planeswalkers, and Ruins.
- They had no permission in hand, which means they are most likely low on cards in hand, due to the high amount of permission it runs. MUC rarely runs low cards in hand in the control matchup, due to 4 FoF+ 4-6 other draw spells. Any relevant threat will put you ahead in this position.
Normally I don't react to your post because I can't read them, but your post is just empty talk...Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Inevitability, What do you prefer:
On one side Mind Slaver 10 mana to use, 1 shot effect without Ruins. Might win the game on the spot or do very little. If your opponent has a Plainswalker in play and he doesn't have a second you can't do anything with it... he fires all his plowes to a single Factory, so that the others will live EOT. Or Fact or Fiction in response so you can't and uses all fetches EOT.
On the other side
Crucible of Worlds: Making landdrops is vital in the control mirror Wastelock and recurring Mishra's Factory is pretty sick too. A CC of 3 mana and a lasting effect.
Elspeth, Jace, or the Liliana
3 to 5 mana. One gives creatures for free, the second cards and the third makes your opponent discard wich is nice. they all stay in play and two of them got an almost instant winning Ultimate and the third a very good second ability.
Unless you maxed out on Plainswalkers I might look into Slaver and then I would still think, why play this over Sundering Titan. For a mana more you get a quick clock and if you play it well almost an armageddon on the other side an no damage for you. And Sundering Titan is bad already.
Benie
Do you know what I really want in a control mirror?
Anything that slowly grinds card advantage.
More Crucibles, additional Planeswalkers, Fact or Fiction, even Sensei's Diving Top or Dark Confidant. Just throw these on the board, if they stick you will eventually win, else your opponent has one less counter now.
Mindslaver seems very good in the sideboard but if people dont want that, Ajani could work or more Extirpate perhaps.
I'd play Telemin Performance, or even something like Haunting Echoes over Mindslaver in the sideboard if you're looking to crush the control mirror. 5 mana will either win you the game immediately, or put you in a very advantageous and likely winning position. Even then, it's tough to justify dedicating a sideboard slot to either of those alternatives. This Mindslaver discussion is nonsense, in my opinion.