If you feel like valueing people you might want to consider Punishing Fire lists. I really think it is the best Nic Fit version. A great SB, realistic ways to beat Jace, a strong Primeval Titan.Quote:
Originally Posted by CalebD
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If you feel like valueing people you might want to consider Punishing Fire lists. I really think it is the best Nic Fit version. A great SB, realistic ways to beat Jace, a strong Primeval Titan.Quote:
Originally Posted by CalebD
Obviously I agree with Tao here as we've been the two primary developers of the archetype. Fair deck matchups are an absolute joke and with the red cards in the board the combo matchups become quite favorable as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Then what problem matchups does the deck have?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyT
Show and Tell?Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Quote:
Originally Posted by KntrellCL
Well you didn't see sigarda in any standard decks, why have her in legacy?
Nic fit is very different from other decks in that it's a hardcore ramp deck. The combo is a lot easier to get to if you have 5 lands on turn 3.
Name one marginal creature in my build.Quote:
Also, putting too many 1-of you will find yourself with plenty of marginal use creatures in many matches.
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I finally cut off Dryad arbor... think about this... any hand 1 lander with gsz should be an instant mull, so you should keep any hand with gsz and two lands, in this case i rather fetch for veteran explorer than dryad arbor.
...Yes, except for the fact that for vet ex you need a sac outlet and it costs 2 mana to gsz for.
I completely agree, except I'm not sure I'd like to run a wincon that I can't pod or gsz for (you're not usually going to be podding 1-drops, which you need to do to pod into stoneforge)Quote:
Another card i took out was strangleroot geist.Yes, it's could to pod twice but you only get a 3/2 haste which his cost isnt too easy to play on T2, so I replace it with SFM and it has been great. You can put BSkull on play and then pod the sfm away...you can copy bskull with metamorph and get it back anytime you want to copy something else.
Thrun was a dificult cut, but it has the same function as sigarda and i would never trade thrun with pod for thragtusk or sigarda, so I replace it with Murderous Redcap which has been nice to keep some board control, especially against DRS
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfiremc13
1. Nic fit never was standar, so sigarda fits into the deck list... that's why Ive never seen her in Type 2.
2. //Creatures
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Academy Rector He's damn good, but with DRS he seems underpowered
2 Archangel of Thune trades 1x1 with swords, dismember, not gsz-able... you can combo from it, but is a combo very disruptable
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Deathrite Shaman - Maindeckable graveyard hate and alternate ramp source It doesnt fit into the gameplan. This craetures trades 1x1 and any deck with more copies will outplay your single shaman, Ooze does the same work and it can trade 1x1 after he remove some cards.
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks----Just 1? you are playing Pod with Resto angel, you should max out every card with persist and undying.
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sun Titan
1 Thragtusk
1 Restoration Angel
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Spike Feeder Only works with Archangel... on its own is a pretty lame cmc3 since your oponents can cast better spells for that cost (KOTR, Lialiana, Crusher, even loxodon smitter)
1 Necroplasm Totally underpower card
3... I dont see any problema to gsz for veteran if you turn 1 cabal therapy... is a pretty standar play T1 therapy, T2 explorer, flashback and then play a drop 3... in your case a kitchen finks only (witness is not worth it in this turn) or a Pod which you cant activate... leaving it open for removal. Drop 2... is more likely to abrupt decay or stoneforge, etc. Keeping a 1 lander hand with gsz is just awful in this deck full of bombs... dryad dies with deed... also, I think deed with Pod is a nombo... this deck list is not like other nic fits which dont have much more board presence and deed everything away... in pod list you will take a lot of your own cards down with deeds...
4... as I said in point 2... you play a lot of situational 1-of... you should play powerful creatures on their own. That's why you play scavening ooze... it trades 1x1 but he's too good... that's why you dont play KOTR, DRS, Goyfs, all of these cards dont fit into your plan... grind your oponent out of removals. Resto angel gives you a lot of value, has combat tricks, she can take down PWs... save one of your creatures etc... then why play just 1? doing a Bpod into resto angel is just half of its power. SFM is just an idea I got... she is pretty strong at her own... if I draw her or Pod her... I would be more than paid at that moment... pod veteran into sfm, search for 2 lands and a equipment, next turn... if sfm stays in play you have a 2 mana Bskull and a 3cmc creature (sac sfm into finks or witness) or just play Bskull from the hand. Bskull makes every dead draw on late game good (such as Veteran explorer, etc).
Dont take anything of these personal, Im just telling you my experience with the deck and giving you arguments of why those cards seems underwhelming for me. If you dont like my ideas, just dont play the cards Im telling you... but just give it a thought a moment and think everytime how can you make your build better! Im also open to see new cards for BGw Pod lists...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Show and Tell decks are still not great but compared to other Nic Fit versions I'd rather have 4 Therapy, 3 Lilianas and two Thoughtseizes main with 4 REBs, 2 Surgical, 2 Golgari Charm and 2 Slaughter Games in the Side than just 4 Therapy MD and a few mediocre SB cards which is what most other versions can muster up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
Where Fire is worse than other versions is the Nic Fit mirror and decks that use the Stage-Depths Combo. I honestly can't think of any other matchups in which I would prefer a different version.
Is Necroplasm doable in non-Pod builds?
Also, how does this Rector core look to you pros?
3 Academy Rector
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Primeval Bounty
1 Faith's Fetters
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Liliana of the Veil
Rector got really bad with the printing of DRS and RIP, since like 75% of the otherwise excellent matchup fair decks you run into will be running of them. Rector would probably be a DOWNgrade from whatever version of nic fit you are playing now.Quote:
Originally Posted by hymntotourcock
I cant speak as much for Pfire, but for Scapewish, in my testing and in tournament experience, Sneak and Show is actually a positive matchup. You have therapy, REB for early interaction, and if the game drags on you can wish for Slaughter games (usually on sneak attack), or just have 7 lands and kill them. Also, unlike other verions of nic fit, you don't always lose to a resolved Show and tell. If you have prime titan in hand, you untap and win. If they drop emmy, you can untap and wish for innocent blood. Their only "combo" that usually gets you is showing griselbrand, or a sneaking multiple fatties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Omnitell is still pretty terrible, as is storm and reanimator.
In terms of a core rector component that's pretty much it except for personal preference and meta choices. For example I run 0 lilis and recycle instead of bounty as well as main deck moat. In terms of a small scale moat is insane in my meta and I tried bounty out once and was unimpressed then again I have an affection for drawing cards so who knows. In terms of a larger meta moat is probably a sideboard card.
Have you found that your matchups are worse now that RIP/DRS are so common? What does your typical matchup against, say, Deathblade look like?Quote:
Originally Posted by plogan
I ask because I have zero Rectors (and little else of the core), and that's a relatively big chunk of resources needed to get these cards. If I invest more into NicFit (currently GWB), I want to make sure I'm spending wisely.
I considered JundFit with Huntmaster, PFire etc., but that looks even more expensive to build. For the price of 1 Badlands I can get 3 Rector and Nightmare/Bounty and essentially plug them into the list I already have. But is it even worth doing?
Thanks guys, i appreciate the advisement.
The matchups with RIP mainboard are nowhere near fun, but if you can keep the pressure on eventually a deed or a maelstrom pulse will show up, and the issue is also due to RIP also shutting down veteran explorer. Admittedly you just have to go the agro route against miracles with rector (and try and force through thragtusk and sigarda). In term of most deathrite decks people don't actually know how rector works, at least in my experience, which leads to it not being gimped. The main problem I've been running into against deathblade is simply not generating enough card advantage against them. I find the utility of rector to be too much to ignore and if your opponent knows the trick then oh well, but you just go for it, and if they miss the trick then it puts you miles ahead. I've tried punishing fit too and it certainly has a better traditional combo match up, but it felt very straightforward comparatively and after trading for a moat I simply can't get over playing it. In fact I recently jammed it into a miracles deck simply because I had it.
All in all I would say its a play style preference. If you like making sure your opponent never has creature or walkers I would suggest punishing fires, if you want to run some of the most ridiculously unfair cards in the game while also knowing when and how to react to various threats thrown at you then I would suggest rector. At least in my meta I would not play rector without owning a moat, but that's again because I typically play against tribal and BUG cascade 2 or 3 times in a 5 round tournament and it simply shuts down a good 70% of their decks.
Also note that rector is probably the slowest version of the deck and killing people in a timely fashion can sometimes be fairly difficult, the deck tends to do a lot of work to make sure that you won't simply die (instead of working towards winning the game).
Imo Punishing Fire is enough better than Rector that I would say it is worth it, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by hymntotourcock
What are the Punishing variant's strong points (aside from burning everything every turn)? Is the reusable PFire better than reusing Deed (with Sun Titan)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
How does Punishing Fit come out ahead in the attrition wars? (thinking Pox, BUG, Maverick)
Would you consider 3 Marsh Flats a good replacement for Wooded Foothills? Flats allows you to get Badlands and Bayou, and Verdant allows you to get Taiga.
1. Those things are not even comparable. Obviously Sun Titan + Deed is infinitely more powerful. However you can't start doing that on turn 2. Sun Titan + Deed will lock up a game you've already won. Punishing Fires can dig you out of holes as it provides much earlier, more consistent interaction. (Also deals with planeswalkers)Quote:
Originally Posted by hymntotourcock
2. Ahead. Well ahead. It's super easy to grind those decks out with P-Fire and clean up with any given fatty they can't deal with at your leisure.
3. No. Sometimes you want to fetch basics too. Though my current split is 4 Catacombs/1 Foothills/1 Mire
Well, I'm pretty sold. Got some Grove of the Burnwillows on the way!
Also, if you guys don't know about it, check out Pucatrade.com. I don't usually like marketing other people's shit, but that site has allowed me to build pretty decent legacy decks.
I wouldn't call grinding out the Shardless matchup "easy". With early Hymns, Lilianas or Jaces they have a good chance of overwhelming you. But still, I'd much rather play them with Fire than with Rector, so trading is worth it in that matchup, too.
Tao, what's with the 1 Sylvan Ranger in your SB? I'm basically copying your list (with a few budget choices).
I use Qweerios' idea to side out all Explorers and all Therapies against Miracles (you can read the exact SB plans for the matchups in OP or in my signature link). So without any Explorers the deck needs another way to search lands with GSZ.
I also notice you don't play Maelstrom Pulse. Is that a meta call? How do you deal with Batterskull, make them discard it?
It is likely that you can prevent an early Batterskull with either Fire/Decay on SFM or a Therapy. If they get a T3 Batterskull it isn't the end of the world though. You can usually take a bit of damage and fight through it without much problem. Only if they get T3 Batterskull, T4 Jace things get problematic but that is not likely going to happen.
If it goes to the lategame Batterskull isn't that relevant if you have your stuff going. Mystic is always dead then because of Punishing Fire so if you kill the token once or twice with Deed/Decay/double Fire and force them to spend 8 mana (or prevent it from attacking with Thrun) you should be able to take over the game.
One way to get rid of it for good is to Deed for 5 at the end of their turn, force them to return it to their hand and then Therapy it away. But usually that is not necessary.
Rector: as a 1-of doesn't hurt, if either your opponent doesn't play drs, or you kill it, or they tap out.Quote:
Originally Posted by KntrellCL
Thune: Obviously I'm not going to pod into the combo if my opponent has mana open and is playing a removal-heavy deck.
DRS: I want it to eat removal, and if it doesn't then it's a great alternative ramp source with other relevant abilities.
Finks: I only really want it as a 1-of, it's not good vs everything and I can pod/gsz into it.
Feeder: It's useful life gain, chump blocking, and counter transfer without angel.
Necroplasm: Good board wipe, synergizes with feeder and thune and dredges for value.
3. GSZ for explorer is not bad, just sometimes you want to find arbor more and play necro, finks, or feeder on t2, resto/redcap/rector on t3, etc.
4. I have many powerful creatures in this deck, and they are all 1-ofs to maximize the options you have when playing gsz or pod. I run 3 of each, remember. In some circumstances rector or redcap will be better than angel and I want to be able to have that option.
As someone who hasn't played Punishing Fire before, it's taking some time for me to realize the power of it. It should read more like this:
Opponent gains 1 life, PFire deals 4 damage to a creature. That's just outrageous.
As I work more toward a complete list, I'm wondering if 4 SDT is necessary. I think 3 top 3 Abrupt Decay would be a better suit to my meta full of Shardless, DnT, Delver.
Also what creatures are you primarily recycling with Volrath's Stronghold? Is this a kind of replacement for the Sun Titan/Eternal Witness effect?
I think 4 Tops is the right number. I just want a Top in play in every game in every matchup. It maximizes your odds of triggering an Explorer. Filtering away Titans and Thruns early on and Therapies, Lands and Explorers in the lategame is great in general. Same for finding SB cards in G2/G3.
In this version Top works well with Liliana. It puts hand cards on the board which helps you to empty your hand so you can use Liliana's +1 ability if you can't get Fire/Grove to work. Top is also amazing against decks that play Discard. I don't mind playing with an empty hand and a Top in play, especially if Liliana ticks up.
If your meta is full of these decks you might want to cut a different card for the 3rd Decay. Maybe Kessig Wolf Run or a Liliana.
Volrath's Stronghold is at its best when combined with Phyrexian Tower (Two Towers). You can Primeval Titan for those two lands. Tower protects your creatures from Swords to Plowshares and you can conveniently use the two black mana to activate Stronghold. This works especially well with Eternal Witness and Thragtusk. Thragtusk + Tower + Stronghold is pretty great in general. If the game goes super late then Witness + Tower + Stronghold (+ Deed/Decay/Discard/Ooze) gives you inevitability against almost anything in the format. Doesn't happen all that often but I played Witness on Stronghold quite a few times in testing to make sure I can keep recurring forever.
Congrats to CRich3 for making a mothership article!
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...aily/deck/1329
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
"Lastly, I must mention the trio of Sensei's Divining Tops. It's nice to see the card outside Counterbalance decks, and with all the shuffling, this deck is a nice fit for it. "
Can't tell if joke or not
With LSV? He's just recycling old material.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I sense a Recurring theme hereQuote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
Some of these puns are downright pernicious. You should undergo some therapy =)Quote:
Originally Posted by hymntotourcock
I'd listen to Arianrhod. He's a Veteran with this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Hi all! I've been meaning to proxy this deck. Any major changes since HoneyT top8'ed with this deck?
These jokes are punishingly bad.
So, as I've stated earlier I'm working within a budget and therefore trying to make some saving edits where possible (namely duals). I'm working off Tao's list, and I wanted some suggestions within my edited version. Obviously shock duals are inferior, but they're available if I need them in dire situations. I feel like there should be 2 Mountain in the deck to protect against Port shenanigans but I'll get there after testing. I've also cut SDT to 3 (all i have) and added a 3rd Abrupt Decay. I really want to stick Sigarda in here solely for GSZ but realize getting her from your hand into your library takes a lot of work and is not really worth it. Shame, I love that card.
Does Primal Hunter not belong in here? At least in SB for control games? I haven't played this yet, but it feels really light on creatures. Then again, it is a control deck isn't it.
EDIT: How does Tajuru Preserver sound in the SB? Pox is still a deck I run into.
2 Bayou
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Punishing Fire
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Sylvan Ranger
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
So I recently picked up this deck (im in between wish fit and punishing, I have both able to be built) and im wondering about something: Huntmaster of the Fells.
I've had people question why the hell im running it and all I can say is that its a good value creature and basically gives us a free body and is a good midgame target. Am I really missing anything with him, as I feel like I am?
In Scapewish, you operate under the assumption that given time, you will win the game because you just need to assemble a lethal land count and a Scapeshift. Huntmaster buys you a ton of time against fair opponents by being at worst two blockers and a little lifegain, while usually eating a removal spell plus doing some other stuff, and it sometimes just randomly takes over the game if you can flip it a couple times. It's also one of the better threats against combo since it gives you a token to sacrifice to Therapy and then applies additional pressure with the threat of flipping. My ideal gameplan against combo is to Therapy once or twice, then stick a Huntmaster to clock them or resolve a Slaughter Games to disrupt them further; the other big bombs in the deck are way too slow against combo.
I can't really speak for why the Punishing Fire deck wants it but I imagine it's for similar reasons, that it's a really good value dude that threatens to flip and take over.
/barn regarding the jagermeister in Scape.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrIggins
For P-Fire, Hunts is actually arguably a little better, even. Hunts doesn't flip very often in Scape; without complete control of a game and/or at least one Sensei's Divining Top, it's too challenging to reliably keep him bouncing back and forth to break games open with him. In P-Fire builds, though, you have the Punishing Fire engine, which synergizes very, very well with Huntmaster, and ensures that he's flipping on-demand.
I thought similar to what you both have said, I was doubting it as the people I talked with are some of the better players and they gave me a :eyebrow: :really: look when I mentioned Huntmaster.
I knew that Huntmaster played well with therapy. Im going to assume that since they dont follow this deck (its not even a blip in the mid-atlantic where I play), they dont know that he is a playable card in this deck.
How is the Shardless BUG match-up. It seems like it would be a battle of who got the most value out of their stuff.
For Scapewish, it's a literal bye. I think I've lost 1 match vs Shardless when I was on Scape, ever -- he curved out DRS->Lily->Jace with double Force while I mulled to 5. Otherwise, it's a joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by kavaki
For P-Fire, I dunno, since I haven't actually played that variant. I would imagine that it would be fairly easy as well, since you can kill all of their things, Titan is better than their deck, and you have a solid plan vs planeswalkers. But, I know Tao and Tim have both said that it's a bit closer than that, and I'd trust their opinion significantly more on P-Fire than mine, since mine is just based in theorycraft while theirs are from actual testing.
I always find it funny when you say this because the first time I played against it I lost horribly. I've since beaten it basically every time but that first time against Kevin Jones at an NELC he hit Agent into Visions 4-5 times during the match, it was really bad. But I agree that barring them having the nuts or you bricking out completely it's a very good matchup. When they're casting Agents into low-impact stuff and you're casting Thragtusks and Huntmasters, they can't do a lot. It's awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
And Kavaki, get used to those looks. You'll get one the first time you cast a Thragtusk and most times you cast Huntmaster, but you can generally ignore them and just kill them with your cards that "aren't Legacy playable." :wink:
Scapewish..... I know it uses Scapeshift, and I assume by the 2nd part that you win a wishboard out of the side. I also assume that someone broke down the pros and cons of both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
My question is which one would do best in a more open meta with a slight lack of combo? (I see more aggro and control variants than combo, but not enough to say there is little combo.)
I hate Thragtusk because I heard so many people wine about him and it started to annoy me. I dont play standard as a rule (people call legacy names, but when you can go control+c, c+v a list and get 2nd out of 90 people with it, with no experience..... yeeeeeaaaaaa.) Anyways, while I may hate him because of whiney people, I know how good he can be. At worst, he makes aggro spend a couple extra turns erasing his legacy. At best, he wins you games easily. 5 mana gets me a 5/3, 5 life and a 3/3...... yea, that sounds good.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrIggins
Personally I think Scapewish is more powerful because it always has the possibility of going "oops I win" while still being able to grind out games. Punishing Fire is a bit more consistent because it gets to play more fetches, so its opening hands are better and it's less prone to having the wheels fall off, but you're less likely to be able to just win and you'll have to grind out opponents pretty frequently. It depends which you feel more comfortable with. Personally I love the raw power of Scapewish and the difficulty many opponents will have with effectively interacting with your plan, and I feel a bit less comfortable as a player playing decks that will usually have to grind out opponents game after game, but it comes down to preference and playstyle IMO. I think the decks are probably at about the same level overall. If you care about such things, I believe Punishing Fit is the only one to top 8 a StarCity open, but I know Arianrhod and I (and others) have had success with Scapewish at smaller events with fewer rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by kavaki