[Deck] Dredge

I don't really know what people are complaining about. Beating dead horses and such. What the hell of a dead horse can we be beating if the deck we refer to isn't even legal yet? Because a card in it hasn't even be printed? Think about it, it makes no sense.


And I'm also saying we don't need DR to win game 1. Still, why are we beating dead horses if people want to keep their DRs, a card that has been a central part of all Dredge decks in the past and if we have no single piece of evidence yet that a list w/o DR can work as well. Afaik, noone outside Germany has ever placed with a DR-less list.



Also, looking at the different Lootings-LED lists people have posted so far, they're very similar (another reason why I don't understand the complains). The DR-less list with a 4-off of everything. Mine's the same except -1 Ichorid, -1 Putrid Imp, +1 Gold land, +1 DR (just for the sacrifice outlet).



A different thing: Vandalize has a good point in that Nature's Claim could be problematic LED lists. I was thinking that as well. I'll probably test Chain of Vapor in those slots again. On the one hand it's way easier to cast and on the other hand it's pretty good in the current metagame anyway, bouncing Reanimator dudes or buying you another turn against Ooze or KotR and such.

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Originally Posted by Izor

I don't really know what people are complaining about. Beating dead horses and such. What the hell of a dead horse can we be beating if the deck we refer to isn't even legal yet? Because a card in it hasn't even be printed? Think about it, it makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

We DO NOT need Dread Return (a.k.a DR) to win the Game 1, because Dredge, as a deck, does that more than often with only Bridge from Below + Ichorid. The Dread Returns ARE IN SIDEBOARD, to make POST-BOARD matchups a little easier.

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Stuff like this doesn’t need to be said anymore. I’m not talking about Faithless Looting. I don’t know why your mind would go to the card that hasn’t been printed.

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Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth

@ Jares

Maybe people still win with PImps and stuff and no Phantasmagorians in the main, because they don't want to change a running system. Dredge is good at was it does. Maybe PImp lists are outdated but still very good. People don't like to risk new things because they could turn out to be bad. :cool:

@ Hollywood

Winds of Change Mainboard is pure awesomeness. I like. :laugh:

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It's true that it's difficult to challenge what already works, which is why a lot of effort (and responsibility) is required of us whenever we try to affect this kind of change. Hollywood's list looks like it's progressing very well. The development of this Hybrid List looks promising.

@Hollywood
I find Winds of Change very fun and interesting because of the randomness that it forces upon an opponent's hand. Have you tried testing it alongside Burning Inquiry? That might not be the best configuration, objectively speaking, but that sounds like it could be crazy!

Kind Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

One of the most powerful plays this variation has is the DDD plan first turn, and the second turn into Breakthrough-Winds awesomeness. When you play Winds, you really want to chain dredgers, so that is the reason for the inclusion of Shambling Shell and Darkblast. (A split for Ichorid and improved Phantasmagorian activation purposes.)

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I like that you added 2 more dredgers in your list, but could you please expound on this statement:

• (A split for Ichorid and improved Phantasmagorian activation purposes.)

I personally would have gone with 2x Shambling Shell, as I have not been a fan of Darkblast, and maximizing the Ichorid and Nether Shadow triggers is always a good thing.

Kind Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

My updated list, for reference:

[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[1x] Shambling Shell
[1x] Darkblast

[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Breakthrough
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Winds of Change
[3x] Phantasmagorian

[2x] Dread Return
[1x] Angel of Despair
[1x] Flame-Kin Zealot

[4x] City of Brass
[4x] Gemstone Mine
[3x] Undiscovered Paradise

//

[4x] Nature's Claim
[3x] Coffin Purge
[3x] Ancient Grudge
[2x] Ray of Revelation
[1x] Dread Return
[1x] Iona, Shield of Emeria
[1x] Undiscovered Paradise

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A few comments on the list:

• I like that Winds of Change essentially took the slot of Careful Study, as the dual-purpose of CS as a discard outlet has become less relevant given that you're already using the Discard Phase for that.
• I was under the assumption that Phantasmagorian was an automatic 4-of to maximize the probability of getting 2 in the GY. Could expound on why you cut the 4th one?
• I can see that you've also cut the Sphinx of Lost Truths. I believe that that also allowed you to take out 1 DR, maybe to give room to the 2 additional dredgers?
• I like that you have the 4th Undiscovered Paradise in your SB, though I'm wondering if you've had any trouble with having 4 copies of the card. Maybe having a singleton Tarnished Citadel (in the SB, replacing the Undiscovered Paradise) might have its benefits?

Cheers,
jares

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Originally Posted by Anusien

Putrid Imp is far better at fighting Tormod's Crypt than Phantasmagoria. Its existence is not new tech from the time of Feldman's writing, for example.

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Please stop pretending you know what you're talking about and go back to SCG and write bad articles for scrubs where you belong.

As far as Dread Return is concerned, I don't think it's a question of whether or not Dread Return is "needed" game 1 in order to win the game but what are you doing with your SB space? If you're not trying to address hate thru' 1cc removal vs Leyline of the Void or additional business vs Tormod's Crypt etc. and you're not SBing hate for Reanimator than you can probably do whatever you want to your MD and converge with other lists via. your SB.

In my mind tho' the question isn't what your MD should or shouldn't be, it's what your deck should be game 2 and how to properly retro-engineer your MD for game 1 in order to maximize your effective SB space vs hate or given match ups. So many configurations just "work" because Dredge is overpowered game 1 that we could argue preferences forever, you guys are better off spending your energy on figuring out what to do game 2 and then working your way back to your MD.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

you guys are better off spending your energy on figuring out what to do game 2 and then working your way back to your MD.

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I agree with this, as this sounds like a more productive way of going about how to configure a Dredge build, given that we'll be playing with some subset of the SB in 2 out of 3 games. Unfortunately, though, there might not be enough effort being exerted towards playing with (and around) the SB.

Kind Regards,
jares

Hey Hollywood...

Just a question... How often do we actually WANT to reach more than 1 Land in the Hybrid List? Yeah, sometimes we can hardcast Moebas and Shadows, but my point is: Why not maxing out Paradises and cutting, lets say a City in the main. I mean... if we always only need 1 land, Paradise is better. Also assume G2: Opp starts with LLotV, we draw to 8, Paradise, go -> EOT Natures Claim, 6 cards -> our turn, bounce Paradise, draw card, DDD. Sounds good.

4 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Dread Return
2 Elesh Norn
1 Sphinx
1 Iona
2 Tarnished Citadel


This is my current test setup for Looting Dredge SB, the one that works the best so far. As always, 2 Elesh Porn are against the mirror.Last Slot is kinda flex, just don't know what to pack and why. I feel Purify or such things are very weak with the 8 Gold Lands, don't really know what to do against Extraction as I find that card not as good as people make it.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

4 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Dread Return
2 Elesh Norn
1 Sphinx
1 Iona
2 Tarnished Citadel


This is my current test setup for Looting Dredge SB, the one that works the best so far. As always, 2 Elesh Porn are against the mirror.Last Slot is kinda flex, just don't know what to pack and why. I feel Purify or such things are very weak with the 8 Gold Lands, don't really know what to do against Extraction as I find that card not as good as people make it.

Thoughts?

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May I request a reference for your MD?

I'd like to hear why you find Surgical Extraction to be not as good as advertised. I somewhat feel the same way to some extent, as I would personally be more concerned if I were to see the old school Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, and Relic of Progenitus being played.

Kind Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by jares

May I request a reference for your MD?

I'd like to hear why you find Surgical Extraction to be not as good as advertised. I somewhat feel the same way to some extent, as I would personally be more concerned if I were to see the old school Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, and Relic of Progenitus being played.

Kind Regards,
jares

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As stated above, my maindeck is the 4-off-everything-no-DR-list. Though I might give in to Izor's Idea and cut 1 Ichorid for 1 Dread Return.
I don't care much about extraction because of it being a strictly worse Extirpate imo. Sure they can play 2 a turn through Snappy BUT you can actually react to it, making them pay 4 life to exile 2 cards. As with LED dredge, I am happy with getting Snapcaster Extracted because of the game will actually be over before anything happens. If it shows to be a problem, I just cut my Grudges for some purifys, I think.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

4 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Dread Return
2 Elesh Norn
1 Sphinx
1 Iona
2 Tarnished Citadel


This is my current test setup for Looting Dredge SB, the one that works the best so far. As always, 2 Elesh Porn are against the mirror.Last Slot is kinda flex, just don't know what to pack and why. I feel Purify or such things are very weak with the 8 Gold Lands, don't really know what to do against Extraction as I find that card not as good as people make it.

Thoughts?

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I think it looks good.

I personally don't like the 2nd Elesh (do you think it's necessary, especially with the Sphinx?), but I agree with your other choices. I'll also run Chains over Claims, 3 Grudge and the 14th land.

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Originally Posted by Izor

I think it looks good.

I personally don't like the 2nd Elesh (do you think it's necessary, especially with the Sphinx?), but I agree with your other choices. I'll also run Chains over Claims, 3 Grudge and the 14th land.

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1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite would likely be enough. I've also never tried playing Sphinx of Lost Truths without FKZ - is it absolutely necessary in the SB? Maybe an Angel of Despair might be more useful for utility.

Adding 1 DR in the MD will also free-up room in your SB (I use the same configuration), but given that you're planning to go with the beat-down route and not with the combo-esque finish in your MD, I wouldn't recommend cutting the 4th Ichorid - I'm not sure of what else you can cut from your list though. Any other candidates?

Kind Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by jares

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite would likely be enough. I've also never tried playing Sphinx of Lost Truths without FKZ - is it absolutely necessary in the SB? Maybe an Angel of Despair might be more useful for utility.

Adding 1 DR in the MD will also free-up room in your SB (I use the same configuration), but given that you're planning to go with the beat-down route and not with the combo-esque finish in your MD, I wouldn't recommend cutting the 4th Ichorid - I'm not sure of what else you can cut from your list though. Any other candidates?

Kind Regards,
jares

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As far as I know Hokus deckbuilding, he would -1 Ichorid +1 DR maindeck, and +1 Ichorid -1 DR in the sideboard. So it wouldn't make a huge difference at all.

About 2 Elesh Norn: In a heavy Aggro meta, you can't afford to dredge 45 cards and not hit your Elesh. It would suck that after your Breakthrough against GW/x Maverick, you can't still find your Elesh because the deck shitted on your face, especially if they have a sickened Knight waiting for you.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

As far as I know Hokus deckbuilding, he would -1 Ichorid +1 DR maindeck, and +1 Ichorid -1 DR in the sideboard. So it wouldn't make a huge difference at all.

About 2 Elesh Norn: In a heavy Aggro meta, you can't afford to dredge 45 cards and not hit your Elesh. It would suck that after your Breakthrough against GW/x Maverick, you can't still find your Elesh because the deck shitted on your face, especially if they have a sickened Knight waiting for you.

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I also used to have 3x Ichorid in the MD, and 1x in the SB. Eventually, I put all 4 in the MD because a friend noticed that I was siding in the 4th one in all of my game 2's anyway. Also, I got convinced that I should maximize Ichorid whenever I'm not planning to go FKZ+Sphinx, because that usually means that I'll need to go through more turns to close-out the game, which naturally translates to more Ichorid triggers. In the worst case, the extra Ichorid will can just be extra Ichorid fodder too. What I'm thinking though, is that it's very difficult to cut a slot from all the other MD inclusions, so Ichorid might really be the best choice. Have you guys considered any alternatives?

On the 2 Elesh, that sounds pretty fair. I guess I rarely dedicate any SB space against Aggro decks because Dredge can handle those deck types fairly well. I do have 3-4 Firestorm in the SB, though, so that might be as good as having 2x Elesh (which can also double as an uncounterable discard outlet).

Kind Regards,
jares

Sphinx will most likely not make the cut.
2 Elesh are needed here- in my meta there is an insane amount of Dredge players, good ones, too(one of them a pro tour regular). Necro and Felidae play in the same Metagame, e.g., as does Brot_ohne_Kruste and some other people(Dennis Rosinski, Timo Schünemann, Julian Hecker) who designed the so-called "German List", LEDless dredge as we know it.
Plus I expect the deck to be played more after Looting.
@Vandalize, you almost have it right. Yeah I will most likely play -1 Ichorid +1 DR main, but I will never play Ichorid SB I think. It just does not belong there imo, it is a waste of space. What will come in is the 3rd Citadel over 1 DR and Hypnotist over Sphinx, at least for further testing. Maybe some Razers or Terastodons/Primi/Angels, don't know yet.

Just went 3-1 @ SCG Open LA Legacy Challenge (4 Rounds)

I was offered the split but I opted to play it out because I didn't care much for the prizes. I wanted the 4-0 xD

My List:

4x Bridge from Below
4x Careful Study
4x Breakthrough
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Dread Return
2x Firestorm
1x Darkblast

4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Putrid Imp
4x Gogari Grave Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Stinkweed Imp
1x Tireless Tribe

4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
2x Tarnished Citadel

SB:
4x Fearie Macabre
4x Nature's Claim
3x Ancient Grudge
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Angel of Despair
1x Chain of Vapor

Round 1 Vs. Reanimator (2-1)
Round 2 Vs. Zoo (2-0)
Round 3 Vs. U/R Delver (2-0)
Round 4 Vs. Punishing Maverick (0-2)

I may add in more details tomorrow.

I think the mainboard is fine and the reason I'm rocking Firestorm main is because of the G/W Maverick matchup. Little did I know Punishing Maverick has a lot more game. xD

Anyway the only thing I would change is instead of 4 claim I would run 4 chain and then a singleton Nature's claim or maybe just make it a 3rd Firestorm.

I'm beginning to think Leyline is a myth and no one in fact runs it but I'll respect the card enough to have a board for it. I just think that right now Chain is a lot more versatile than claim and has other applications (in other matchups) than simply bouncing leyline. I'll still have the Grudges for the Crypts and Relics.

Im going to sleep its late.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

Sphinx will most likely not make the cut.
2 Elesh are needed here- in my meta there is an insane amount of Dredge players, good ones, too(one of them a pro tour regular). Necro and Felidae play in the same Metagame, e.g., as does Brot_ohne_Kruste and some other people(Dennis Rosinski, Timo Schünemann, Julian Hecker) who designed the so-called "German List", LEDless dredge as we know it.

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I didn't realize that the meta was that dense in your area. In comparison, I do see a fair amount of Dredge in our meta, but with all due respect to those players, there are only a few that I would really worry about.

With a meta that dense, wouldn't it be worthwhile to play Leyline of the Void? Do any of you still use that card in anticipation of a mirror match (and also for Reanimator)?

Kind Regards,
jares

@ Que
Could you report us about your Reanimator match?
I'm really interested in, how you won.

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Originally Posted by K1w1

@ Que
Could you report us about your Reanimator match?
I'm really interested in, how you won.

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+1 here



@ Jares
Leyline of the Void isn't even a card. I mean it does not win the game and thats not that good for a 4 mana spell in Legacy. With a list that runs lands I lost exactly once in my life to Leyline, at GP Amsterdam( the guy who placed second with Canadian-ish)
So no, I won't play it, and don't expect to run into it and if I do it will most likely not do anything. Thanks for the advice tho.:)