Printable View
Well i guess you already own them then ;) I kind get my fingers on them so I will have to do without and 3-4 birds instead :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorondor
Should work just fine i think.
Is there any logic behind me running 2 confidants and 2 phyrexian arenas or is that just plain silly?
Bob vs. Arena
It can be summarized in a very simple way:
If the purpose of the card is to draw cards, play Arena;
If the purpose of the card is to be versatile (2/1 body, carry equipments, draw cards, bait removal, etc...), play Bob.
The reason why I chose Arena over Bob is because of inevitability. We all know how fast an unanswered Bob can swing a game in your favor. Well, Arena is virtually unanswerable by most Legacy decks, or put differently, won't be answered before it has generated enough card advantage to leave your opponent at a deficit because enchantment removal is more scarce than creature removal.
I play both SDT and Arena for a few reasons:
SDT filters draws along with shufflers (GSZ, SFM, Fetches, KotR) thus offering greater card selection and quality. I believe any non-combo, non-tempo driven, non-blue decks should all play a few Tops, there is no reason not to. Also, the reason why I play an equal amount of Tops and Arenas is because they stack together and assure you both quality and quantity of cards. The outcome of the two cards is similar to Bob + SDT minus the Bob flip constraints (revealing and losing X life), the vulnerability of the engine, and the 2/1 body.
SoFI vs. SoLS
SoFI is generally played for its effect while SoLS is generally played for its protections. Jitte is usually superior to both against aggro decks when you have enough dorks to get it online. However, SoLS is a great tool against Control decks in a threat heavy list (20+ creatures IMO). The reason why I play SoFI instead of SoLS is because my list is very threat light, therefore the recursion ability isn't likely to trigger. Another reason is because I can't really abuse Jitte without Bobs. If I played Hierarchs instead of Birds I probably would change SoFI for Jitte. As it is now, SoFI is generally equiped on creatures that are not removal-worthy until the equipment is attached (AKA: Birds and Lingering tokens). The SoFI triggers are very powerful effects, and the protections are just extra. Also, SoFI won't be destroyed by another copy of SoFI...
I couldn't have said it much better myself.
SOLS is still very good though, but SOFI allows you to muck MoM and other small creatures, with the added advantage of then drawing a card.
I like Arena, but for the reasons listed above, I'm playing Confidant. If I were playing Arenas you have to be playing Birds, since you're in the more control section of a Rock deck.
-Matt
I'm debating whether to put Moxes in my deck or not. I love the fact that I have the potential to play Bob or SFM on turn one. The only drawback is that it sucks drawing it late game or opening with only 2 lands without a BoB. After watching Ian's stream on his Legacy gameplay, he sided out Moxes in certain games. One match up I remember Ian siding out Moxes is against Miracle Whip. I understand that it's typical to side out the Moxes when you're playing against red decks and/or boarding in Deed. Are there other times when you should board out Moxes?
I would like to clarify why I board out Mox first. It's not a matter of if they'll be destroyed. Your Mox are just as vulnerable games 2 and 3 as your non-basics (especially if you're running SFM). The reason I board out the Mox against decks like Stoneblade and Miracle Whip (That match's boarding strategy was a good example of poor boarding as I assumed that my opponent was a Stoneblade deck) is because I have time to interact with them without needing my colors ASAP. The chance of them interacting with my lands is very low and they should typically never beat me out of the gates (even at 1 land per turn). Because of that, Mox are not needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angels
In situations like Canadian Thresh (Rug Delver) I leave them in. I know my opponent will have some number of Ancient Grudge available to them, if they've seen my list, but I can't afford to worry about that vs Submerge. The Mox in that match operates as Forests that have anti Submerge tech written into them.
Against Nic Fit, I'm expecting them to be able to Ramp me anyway. I'll be fetching for Non-basics and assuming that my opponent will resolve and kill a Veteran Explorer. If they don't, I have my manabase covered already. The Mox would only be used here to push those 1st turn plays which I can't count on sticking around. The board will most likely be swept at some point.
Against Sneak Show I leave them in. First turn Thalia or Bob is very strong and warrants a counter. That means I'm getting at least 1 card from their hand. In this match, Liliana is the Key. It's not that she's going to kill Griselbrand before he draws 7. It's that they need 2 cards in order to be able to win. Liliana keeps hand sizes from growing without actual draw spells (more than cantrips). Baiting reduces their hand size and that is the point of the match. Who cares if they have 4 mana if they have to, not only draw the Sneak Attack (SnT requires 2 cards in hand) but they also have to draw the Creature.
I also leave them in against maverick. I don't mind risking them playing some type of Artifact removal. They'll typically hold it for the Equipment (Mainly Jitte) if they can. That being said, 1st turn Bob/Library post board typically leads to tons of removal (as the deck changes into KILL EVERYTHING mode).
As far as red decks go, I'd probably leave them in. Moon effects (Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon) are real things. Additionally, Price of Progress hurts a lot when you can't fetch basics. Mox provides a little bit of ease on both fronts. Being able to make the correct color mana and stealing some value away from price is extremely useful. Yes, you open yourself up to Smash to Smithereens but, I'd say it'd most definitely worth the risk.
Thank you Ian! I look forward to watching more of your streams and reading your reports. I have been a rock fan since Gen Con 2005.
Does someone have a URL for Ians games with his ROCK deck? I would very much like to see it in action.
Regarding Phyrexian Arena vs Dark Confidant, would it be weird to use 2 of each?
I'm not the controllish type (trollish type though, HAHA! ehem....) but still thinks that Ph. Arena seems very good. I dig the way you put it, Qweerios - DC for more of an aggro version, but mostly they are played as a 4-off.. So would 2 be weird? (haven't tested yet.)
There's a link in my signature. Click Youtube.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neffy
What do people feel is the right number of lands to be playing with Mox Diamond? I may be able to get my paws on 1 or 2 for my next event
Usually, a deck playing 4 Mox Diamonds plays 25-27 lands, so if you're running 2-3, I wouldn't run less than 23-24.
-Matt
I feel like 23 is the bleeding edge minimum if running 3 Mox Diamond (pretty standard number if running Mox at all). And with our utility lands being dead draws sometimes (not dead as in useful, but dead as in non-mana producing or CIPT like Bojuka Bog), in addition to running a fair number of 3cc spells (KotR, Vindicate, Liliana), I always am looking for room to run a 24th mana-producing land.
If I can only get my paws on 1 or 2 Mox Diamonds, is it even worth playing?
I've never been a fan of mox and never used it, but I think having just 1-2 is a waste of slots. You want mox to accelerate your first turns, and having 1-2 will turn in not having them in your opening hand, thus losing the boost advantage they provide. On top of that, you will end up topdecking them mid-late game, when they only serve as goyf food.
But I may be wrong, because, as I said, I've never played a mox build.
Lets say that ones style of play and wallet content does not fit the Mox Diamonds and you want to play birds instead. Should you go for 3 or 4?
I am currently trying out three since i dont wonna draw them late game and still have 2 GSZ to tutor for them.
I like the thought of having at least a few birds to equip swords on, but four seems too many for me.
Your thoughts?
I'm finding myself more and more wanting to replace Vindicate with Maelstrom Pulse. Yes, I understands Wasteland+Vindicate has the potential to landlock someone out of the game, but those times are far more rare compared to staring at my opponent 2-3x of something that is just silly (Goyf, Delver, Lingering Souls tokens, etc). Other than not being able to hit lands, I don't see the drawback of Pulse over Vindicate.
At this point in time, Pulse > Vindicate. I've switched and liked it. There's been a few times where they have a Goyf and so do I, which has been awkward, otherwise it's been fine.
For mana acceleration, you should play 3. If you're going to play it, might as well have it often enough to draw it.
-Matt
It's worth it if you can find the room for them. Cutting/Adding anything changes your deck. It may be small but it counts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrislegend
The application of the Mox is incorrect here. If you're only using Mox for that first turn play, you're probably using it incorrectly and should replace them with something else. Mox should be there to deal with color requirement issues, not ramp. It's a way to fight Blood Moon, Submerge, Wasteland, and other annoyances. Using it as Ramp is about as good as playing Exploration without a way to maintain the stream of lands (Crucible or loam to name a few).Quote:
Originally Posted by comandantenorton83
To me this seems fine. Wallet aside, Birds are fine (odd, 'is' would be the word to use here...). They're just fragile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neffy
Give it a shot. I've been with Pulses for a while. It's been very good for me, even helps deal with Iona (random). I think I've convinced Matt to play just the Pulses at. He can give you his opinion if he see's your question. Anyone still playing Vindicates have an opinion for him to keep them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
I could see running Vindicates if you're constantly running into situations where you're blowing up your own crap, or situations where you never want green out because you fear Submerge and you don't have fixing out.
Narrow, but I guess it could be an issue.
I'm running 3 Pulses 0 Vindicate atm and have had no problems. The thing I hate about playing against Submerge is we're so green heavy (at least when I play, I'm usually Oozing, so I'm fetching Green often), so it's hard to avoid Submerge situations, even if I were playing with fixing. I heart the green mana too much.
-Matt
i am still using vindicates over pulse, this may be due to 2 reasons
first: i got no pulses (shame on me), and
second: my build, which is more focused on mana-denial, which means i am using a 4-mox build with 2 loams, hymn to tourach and vindicate (still tinkering though)
IMHO vindicate = pulse in most situations, but which one gives you more value depends mostly on your build, mine prefers vindicate, thats for sure, but for less aggressive builds pulse might be the right choice, but i do not have an idea, since i allways used either EE or Deed as addition to vindicate, so i can only speek for my build
hopefully you understood what i wanted to say, since i am a bit drunk i do not know if my english is still fine^^
good night guys^^
I understood. With your build, it makes sense :)
-Matt