[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

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Originally Posted by beezy

Gonna be playing TES at SCG Minneapolis this weekend, first legacy tournament in about 5 years. Any tips or suggestions as to not completely flame out?

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Blue decks -

- If they only way they can stop you is Force of Will, go for it unless you can go off next turn with protection (discard spell or Silence)
- Play around Daze if you can

Non-Blue decks -

- If they have discard, play out artifact mana ahead of time

Other combo decks -

- Be faster, use discard to slow them down, use Silence to timewalk during their turn

In general -

- If you can Ad Nauseum and you're say above 12+ life, go for it otherwise...
- If you can EtW for 10-12 goblins early (first three turns), go for it otherwise...
- Use Past in Flames, Ill-Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns to re-fuel your hands
PiF good when lots of Dark Ritual effects in yard and/or cantrips
IGG good when you have artifact mana and ideally Tutor/Wish in yard
DimRet good when you don't have much yard and/or you're playing against non-blue

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Originally Posted by Royce Walter

Are you Greg? I posted a quick recap of my match - es yesterday.

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Yup! Just wondering of you were planning on doing a longer treatment. Thanks for posting the matchup notes though.


Davelin - the problem is that their hate comes down turn 2 and you can't respond to them playing a land. Silence is used primarily as time walk, not mind twist like in the storm mirror.

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

One thing there is to talk about is the boarding plans against Elves. Game 2 against Anderson at the invitational I absolutely wanted Silence over the anti-hate in my hand. i wish I had someone proficient at elves around me to test against.

After talking to Anderson briefly afterwards I asked if he's ever seen silence used against him post board to which he replied "No, I'm usually just used to making a dork turn one then dying before I untap" which sounds about right to me. Certainly a silence walk until turn 3 will win storm the game a majority of the time.

How often will that happen? Well you have to have double silence (on turn 1 and turn 2) then the kill on turn three. This line is more susceptible to being on the draw as turn 1 discard can get through making me think that if it is in fact worthwhile it is better on the play than the draw perhaps.

Honestly I don't even think hatebears out of elves is that big of a deal as teeg generally slows down their ability to Hoof us and tutor for creatures and we can easily find chain/decay under their lessened pressure. It's the hands of turn 1 discard into turn 3 hoof for lethal or near lethal where the bounce/decay doesn't do so much.

I'm going to spend some games tonight testing silence vs traditional boarding, noting whether or not things are more effective on the play. I'm inclination is that silence is useful on their turn 2 especially if they are on the draw but maybe not otherwise.

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Keep us posted. I have been feeling quite similar as of late.

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Originally Posted by phazonmuant

Yup! Just wondering of you were planning on doing a longer treatment. Thanks for posting the matchup notes though.


Davelin - the problem is that their hate comes down turn 2 and you can't respond to them playing a land. Silence is used primarily as time walk, not mind twist like in the storm mirror.

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I don't have a lot else to say, although I can go more into detail about my round 3 vs Nick now that I can't sleep.

Game 1 I mull to 6, play 2 LEDs and a Volc, pass. On turn 1 I probe him seeing Silence, Burning Wish, Petal, lands, don't remember what else. I tap a Volc to Brainstorm on turn 3, and mid-Brainstorm my hand is Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Gemstone Mine, Lotus Petal, 2 Silence, with an Underground Sea, 2 LEDs, and (tapped) Volc in play. I think (though I can't remember for certain) that he probed me on his turn 1 or 2 and knows about the Infernal Tutor and Dark Ritual. Since I have no hand disruption and am now Brainstorm locked, I have to bait his Silence, so I put back Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor on top, play Gemstone Mine, Silence. He tanks, casts Silence in response. At the time I thought I had punted by not playing my Petal first since he can now (theoretically) go off on his turn and I don't have Silence mana up, but he told me afterward that if I had played the Petal it wouldn't have sold the bluff. On his turn, he Wishes for Therapy, Therapy naming Infernal Tutor, sees that my hand is Lotus Petal + Silence, and from there I untap, draw Infernal Tutor, cast Ad Nauseam, win fairly easily.

Game 2 I mull to 5 on the draw, and on Turn 2 he Therapies me, sees I don't have Silence, and Empties for 10 goblins. He chooses not to flashback therapy since it slows his clock down by 1 turn, and if I had ripped an LED I would have won, but I didn't get there.

Game 3 I mull to 6 and have a Silence, we both play out artifact mana and cantrip for a few turns, and I have 2 Silence, Tutor, Brainstorm, some lands and an LED in play. On my end step he casts Dark Ritual and I'm forced to let him resolve Ad Nauseam since he can just cast it on his turn if I Silence (drawing it naturally? I wonder what it feels like to be Bryant). He flips a lot of cards (0 Silence) and stops at 2 life. I upkeep Silence, he discards to hand size and passes the turn with 2 Brainstorm in hand (no unknown cards in his hand). This leaves me in an interesting spot. There are 32 cards left in his deck, 4 of which are Silence, and he can dig 4 cards deep with 2 Brainstorms on my turn for a Silence (no fetches in play), leaving me with a 50/50 chance of him effectively "having" Silence. I can either Infernal -> Wish -> Grapeshot and flip a coin hoping he bricks, or Brainstorm for disruption. I choose to Brainstorm, thinking that I have a pretty good chance to find more disruption, and I miss, pass the turn and upkeep Silence him again. Unfortunately this just puts me in a worse position than the previous turn, as he's now one draw step closer to a Silence, but I'm obviously dead if he untaps, so I have to go for it. He Brainstorms twice in response to the Tutor, and shows me the hand full of blanks.

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Originally Posted by Royce Walter

I don't have a lot else to say, although I can go more into detail about my round 3 vs Nick now that I can't sleep.

Game 1 I mull to 6, play 2 LEDs and a Volc, pass. On turn 1 I probe him seeing Silence, Burning Wish, Petal, lands, don't remember what else. I tap a Volc to Brainstorm on turn 3, and mid-Brainstorm my hand is Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Gemstone Mine, Lotus Petal, 2 Silence, with an Underground Sea, 2 LEDs, and (tapped) Volc in play. I think (though I can't remember for certain) that he probed me on his turn 1 or 2 and knows about the Infernal Tutor and Dark Ritual. Since I have no hand disruption and am now Brainstorm locked, I have to bait his Silence, so I put back Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor on top, play Gemstone Mine, Silence. He tanks, casts Silence in response. At the time I thought I had punted by not playing my Petal first since he can now (theoretically) go off on his turn and I don't have Silence mana up, but he told me afterward that if I had played the Petal it wouldn't have sold the bluff. On his turn, he Wishes for Therapy, Therapy naming Infernal Tutor, sees that my hand is Lotus Petal + Silence, and from there I untap, draw Infernal Tutor, cast Ad Nauseam, win fairly easily.

Game 2 I mull to 5 on the draw, and on Turn 2 he Therapies me, sees I don't have Silence, and Empties for 10 goblins. He chooses not to flashback therapy since it slows his clock down by 1 turn, and if I had ripped an LED I would have won, but I didn't get there.

Game 3 I mull to 6 and have a Silence, we both play out artifact mana and cantrip for a few turns, and I have 2 Silence, Tutor, Brainstorm, some lands and an LED in play. On my end step he casts Dark Ritual and I'm forced to let him resolve Ad Nauseam since he can just cast it on his turn if I Silence (drawing it naturally? I wonder what it feels like to be Bryant). He flips a lot of cards (0 Silence) and stops at 2 life. I upkeep Silence, he discards to hand size and passes the turn with 2 Brainstorm in hand (no unknown cards in his hand). This leaves me in an interesting spot. There are 32 cards left in his deck, 4 of which are Silence, and he can dig 4 cards deep with 2 Brainstorms on my turn for a Silence (no fetches in play), leaving me with a 50/50 chance of him effectively "having" Silence. I can either Infernal -> Wish -> Grapeshot and flip a coin hoping he bricks, or Brainstorm for disruption. I choose to Brainstorm, thinking that I have a pretty good chance to find more disruption, and I miss, pass the turn and upkeep Silence him again. Unfortunately this just puts me in a worse position than the previous turn, as he's now one draw step closer to a Silence, but I'm obviously dead if he untaps, so I have to go for it. He Brainstorms twice in response to the Tutor, and shows me the hand full of blanks.

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In game 2 did he have EtW main? If he did, isn't it typical to side it out in the mirror?

He had to wish for Empty. I'm pretty sure he boarded the same way I did, -empty +therapy.

I apologize in advance because The legacy pimp thread is probably the place I should be putting this question. Butttt I recently just finished making my list Non foil Japanese and the white boarder on my diminishing returns is killing me. does anyone have contact information for a good artist for alters or have an altered Japanese diminishing returns they are willing to part with? I have seen a few photos of bb altered ones as well as full art. Any help or points in the right direction would be extremely appreciated. Thanks Troopers.

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Originally Posted by Royce Walter

He had to wish for Empty. I'm pretty sure he boarded the same way I did, -empty +therapy.

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Hey Royce, grats on your T8! I was the kid sitting next to you at table 1 who pulled over a chair to watch you play haha. Your deck was sick and you played so well. I probably should have said Gerard was playing stifle when you asked me what he was playing, oversight by me I guess. Good finish nonetheless and good luck in the future!

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

That one isn't quite fair because you can still use the cantrips drawn with DR. My issue is that you simply don't HAVE to gamble for a DR Hand which privides enough Black and Blue mana at the same time to find the kill aside from a thousands of possible combinations which just leave you dead in the water like a a hand with multiple Tutors, Cantrips and lands or a Brunch of Rituals but only a single Brainstorm.

I thought that seeing 9 cards guaranteed with a PIF loop should be more than enough to find one of 4 Infernals, 3 Wishes or an EtW (not counting finding additional cantrips off Ponder/Brainstorm.

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But that is why I am arguing for DR because you its not a sure thing you will see 9 cards. In my rush to post i messed up on the math. With only one shuffle effect after PiF you would brainstorm first then you would Ponder only seeing 1 new card unless you took 2 bad cards with probe (ie lands, chrome mox, empty the warrens, ad nauseam, or infernal tutor) so in reality you may only see a total of 7 cards though in the reverse of ponder then brainstorm you may see a total of 9. DR is a much better play here yes you give interaction but you are given 7 new cards and a full set of LEd's cantrips in the deck not running for the one LED cause you hit IF or hitting BW and no other rituals to go off cause you only have BBB/R/U left in pool. Pif is the wrong play here actually run the scenario through several times going for DR and then do the same going PiF and you will see that DR is just better. Now i am not arguing that you should use DR over PiF every time but given the situation DR is the correct line of play.

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Originally Posted by maritlage

But that is why I am arguing for DR because you its not a sure thing you will see 9 cards. In my rush to post i messed up on the math. With only one shuffle effect after PiF you would brainstorm first then you would Ponder only seeing 1 new card unless you took 2 bad cards with probe (ie lands, chrome mox, empty the warrens, ad nauseam, or infernal tutor) so in reality you may only see a total of 7 cards though in the reverse of ponder then brainstorm you may see a total of 9. DR is a much better play here yes you give interaction but you are given 7 new cards and a full set of LEd's cantrips in the deck not running for the one LED cause you hit IF or hitting BW and no other rituals to go off cause you only have BBB/R/U left in pool. Pif is the wrong play here actually run the scenario through several times going for DR and then do the same going PiF and you will see that DR is just better. Now i am not arguing that you should use DR over PiF every time but given the situation DR is the correct line of play.

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Can you please add some much-needed punctuation to your response? I am having a very difficult time trying to read it.

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Originally Posted by maritlage

But that is why I am arguing for DR because you its not a sure thing you will see 9 cards. In my rush to post i messed up on the math. With only one shuffle effect after PiF you would brainstorm first then you would Ponder only seeing 1 new card unless you took 2 bad cards with probe (ie lands, chrome mox, empty the warrens, ad nauseam, or infernal tutor) so in reality you may only see a total of 7 cards though in the reverse of ponder then brainstorm you may see a total of 9. DR is a much better play here yes you give interaction but you are given 7 new cards and a full set of LEd's cantrips in the deck not running for the one LED cause you hit IF or hitting BW and no other rituals to go off cause you only have BBB/R/U left in pool. Pif is the wrong play here actually run the scenario through several times going for DR and then do the same going PiF and you will see that DR is just better. Now i am not arguing that you should use DR over PiF every time but given the situation DR is the correct line of play.

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Stop at this part here. Why on earth are you brainstorming first?

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Originally Posted by maritlage

But that is why I am arguing for DR because you its not a sure thing you will see 9 cards. In my rush to post i messed up on the math. With only one shuffle effect after PiF you would brainstorm first then you would Ponder only seeing 1 new card unless you took 2 bad cards with probe (ie lands, chrome mox, empty the warrens, ad nauseam, or infernal tutor) so in reality you may only see a total of 7 cards though in the reverse of ponder then brainstorm you may see a total of 9. DR is a much better play here yes you give interaction but you are given 7 new cards and a full set of LEd's cantrips in the deck not running for the one LED cause you hit IF or hitting BW and no other rituals to go off cause you only have BBB/R/U left in pool. Pif is the wrong play here actually run the scenario through several times going for DR and then do the same going PiF and you will see that DR is just better. Now i am not arguing that you should use DR over PiF every time but given the situation DR is the correct line of play.

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I will not start a basic tutorial how to dig for a 7-off with BBBRUUU, 2 probes, Ponder and Brainstorm. To Brainstorm before Ponder is total nonsense.

Edit: You Probe, Probe, Ponder, brainstorm, throw back anything that isn't mana, Tutor, Wish or Ponder, play out all your mana and Wish/Tutor/ponder into the kill. Hell, you could even keep a Land + Ponder #2+ Brainstorm #2 + xxx afterwards and still win (EtW at this point is deadly in one swing).

Edit 2: if you somehow brick you have still the option left to flashback PIF either later or next turn

It does't matter if DR is in 6 outta 10 cases "better" than PIF as long as the remaining 4 cases guara-damn-teed lose you the game, all because of the variance the deck and DR has. I'm not even talking about SSG and pyroblast

Yah not casting can trips in the correct order cost me a match at SCG ATL

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I will not start a basic tutorial how to dig for a 7-off with BBBRUUU, 2 probes, Ponder and Brainstorm. To Brainstorm before Ponder is total nonsense.

Edit: You Probe, Probe, Ponder, brainstorm, throw back anything that isn't mana, Tutor, Wish or Ponder, play out all your mana and Wish/Tutor/ponder into the kill. Hell, you could even keep a Land + Ponder #2+ Brainstorm #2 + xxx afterwards and still win (EtW at this point is deadly in one swing).

Edit 2: if you somehow brick you have still the option left to flashback PIF either later or next turn

It does't matter if DR is in 6 outta 10 cases "better" than PIF as long as the remaining 4 cases guara-damn-teed lose you the game, all because of the variance the deck and DR has. I'm not even talking about SSG and pyroblast

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So let me get this straight; what you are saying is you are willing to gamble on hitting basically 1 of 3 BW left in the deck. You are willing to gamble on hitting 39 other cards that do not win the game but to gamble on a whole new seven for you and your opponent for the win is completely wrong because it gives your opponent a whole new seven. And please explain how you can win with a sorcery speed deck when your opponent can caste a moon effect or just win out right with grindstone. Also if we brick as does our opponent we are still up the creek with out a paddle because all it takes is a swing from the Figure of Destiny and the 2 painters for 6 damage. Now if we brick on the PiF using all our cantrips that is 10 damage all together. Plus one mountain means we are taking 12 damage. On top of all this the OP did not state their life total to begin with but with the board state described I am betting it is not at a good number so one swing does us in. So the "DR Roulette" as you say is a no go but gambling hitting the right combo of cards to win on the spot when 39 are a dead cause to you except in the most extreme cases is okay. DR is just amazing here PiF is not even in the game.

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Originally Posted by maritlage

So let me get this straight; what you are saying is you are willing to gamble on hitting basically 1 of 3 BW left in the deck. You are willing to gamble on hitting 39 other cards that do not win the game but to gamble on a whole new seven for you and your opponent for the win is completely wrong because it gives your opponent a whole new seven. And please explain how you can win with a sorcery speed deck when your opponent can caste a moon effect or just win out right with grindstone. Also if we brick as does our opponent we are still up the creek with out a paddle because all it takes is a swing from the Figure of Destiny and the 2 painters for 6 damage. Now if we brick on the PiF using all our cantrips that is 10 damage all together. Plus one mountain means we are taking 12 damage. On top of all this the OP did not state their life total to begin with but with the board state described I am betting it is not at a good number so one swing does us in. So the "DR Roulette" as you say is a no go but gambling hitting the right combo of cards to win on the spot when 39 are a dead cause to you except in the most extreme cases is okay. DR is just amazing here PiF is not even in the game.

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It's the same gamble finding one of a three-of with the DimRet as well but instead of hitting 39 other cards...you're hitting on ~55 other cards. Yes you may get IT + LED in the 7 new cards, but that's not a very high chance too. Don't forget we also need storm to finish off the opponent. PiF gives us easy access to more storm, DimRet doesn't necessarily. DimRet is a much higher variance play.

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Originally Posted by maritlage

DR is just amazing here PiF is not even in the game.

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For PiF to work out, you need to find an answer in 9 cards.
For DR to work out, you need a good new hand AND for the opponent to not get a new hand that disrupts yours. I don't think this is as likely as you seem to think it is.

I am never thrilled to cast DR, because there's always the possibility that it won't work out. This is not the same thing as saying that I only cast it as a last resort. It's a gamble, but sometimes it's a the best gamble out of available options. Sometimes it's not.

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Originally Posted by sconnell

For PiF to work out, you need to find an answer in 9 cards.
For DR to work out, you need a good new hand AND for the opponent to not get a new hand that disrupts yours. I don't think this is as likely as you seem to think it is.

I am never thrilled to cast DR, because there's always the possibility that it won't work out. This is not the same thing as saying that I only cast it as a last resort. It's a gamble, but sometimes it's a the best gamble out of available options. Sometimes it's not.

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Yes no one is ever thrilled to cast DR unless you are playing dredge and you need to time walk them a turn to get the win. But on the same token you are forcing your opponent to have answers or lose. Yes I will admit that DR can lose you the game but every one seems to think that PiF is just the auto win here, unless my reading comprehension has gone the way of the dinosaurs, which is not the case. From my own experience playing and having a friend help me understand where I could improve my play I received an extra 4 turns for using DR. We all know this is not the with mono-red painter in this board state. We need to win now or never so DR though it may brick allows for lot more wiggle room then PiF. This is because the LED's can be cracked for any and all colors including 6 U 3 R leaving us with one untapped gold land for black 4 U and 1 R after DR as one combination of color or my afore mentioned combo of U/BB/RR or U/B/RRR the list goes on. Also we have not made a land drop this turn freeing up even more mana to cast what ever we may draw.

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Originally Posted by maritlage

So let me get this straight; what you are saying is you are willing to gamble on hitting basically 1 of 3 BW left in the deck. You are willing to gamble on hitting 39 other cards that do not win the game but to gamble on a whole new seven for you and your opponent for the win is completely wrong because it gives your opponent a whole new seven. And please explain how you can win with a sorcery speed deck when your opponent can caste a moon effect or just win out right with grindstone. Also if we brick as does our opponent we are still up the creek with out a paddle because all it takes is a swing from the Figure of Destiny and the 2 painters for 6 damage. Now if we brick on the PiF using all our cantrips that is 10 damage all together. Plus one mountain means we are taking 12 damage. On top of all this the OP did not state their life total to begin with but with the board state described I am betting it is not at a good number so one swing does us in. So the "DR Roulette" as you say is a no go but gambling hitting the right combo of cards to win on the spot when 39 are a dead cause to you except in the most extreme cases is okay. DR is just amazing here PiF is not even in the game.

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No,

- you have BBBRUUU available
- you have 4 Virtual cards in your hand after resolving your cantrips
- among those cantrips is a Brainstorm to throw away cards which may brick your hand
- You may see more cards via cantrip chains after the Probe/Probe/Ponder combo (aka another Ponder)
- you have to find either one of the 4 Infernals (turned on by Brainstorm) or one of 3 wishes.
- PIF creates a lethal amount of goblins so EtW is another card to consider for cantrippin into
- PIF guarantees seeing 9 cards out of 39 with options for more
- DR guarantees seeing 7 out of 49 with the option to remove several Wishes/Infernals on resolution
- in both cases, PIF and DR, you'll likely lose if you fizzle
- don't slap me with Moon effects or Grindstone off the topdeck as an argument after suggesting giving your opponent 7 free cards
- DR is best used turn 1 or 2; not as a panic button

I strongly believe that PiF > DR.

Every time I ended up using DR, most of the stuff I was looking for was exiled as the 10 top cards.
Cantrip order is quite essential here as well.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

No,

- you have BBBRUUU available
- you have 4 Virtual cards in your hand after resolving your cantrips
- among those cantrips is a Brainstorm to throw away cards which may brick your hand
- You may see more cards via cantrip chains after the Probe/Probe/Ponder combo (aka another Ponder)
- you have to find either one of the 4 Infernals (turned on by Brainstorm) or one of 3 wishes.
- PIF creates a lethal amount of goblins so EtW is another card to consider for cantrippin into
- PIF guarantees seeing 9 cards out of 39 with options for more
- DR guarantees seeing 7 out of 49 with the option to remove several Wishes/Infernals on resolution
- in both cases, PIF and DR, you'll likely lose if you fizzle
- don't slap me with Moon effects or Grindstone off the topdeck as an argument after suggesting giving your opponent 7 free cards
- DR is best used turn 1 or 2; not as a panic button

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Lem,

I agree with everything you say here but your last statement has me thinking more since this hasn't been how I've been using it. If I'm in a situation where I can DimRet turn 1 or 2, then I'm usually casting EtW for 8-10 goblins. I've been using DimRet more in situations like this i.e. mid-game, my hand has been whittled down because of counters/discard/mis-firing earlier. Can you clarify more on situations where you would want to DimRet turn 1 or 2 instead of firing off some goblins or crafting our hand for another turn?