[Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

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Originally Posted by Scott

This only applies to Welder MUD, but my go-to SB card against BUG and the Liliana decks being discussed would be Blood Moon, as it's never dead against those decks, and has broad application against the field.

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Yes Blood Moon may even be a reason to play Welder MUD. If your field is filled with lot of triple color control, lands and fast combo. Otherwise, or in an unknown meta, i would prefer the more consistent and reliable mana development of mono brown with Cloudpost and focus on Ugin.

Okay, another idea that may or may not go anywhere. I was wondering if Rage Extractor could be a viable card for MUD. This card easily addresses the match up against BUG as Phyrexian Mana cards often dodge Abrupt Decay and you can shoot the damage from Rage Extractor on Liliana regardless of whether the card even resolves. For it to work, you'd need a critical density of Phyrexian Mana cards (which also pressures your life total quiet a bit). Here are the once that I think are worth looking at:

Phyrexian Metamorph
Rage Extractor
Slash Panther
Pith Driller - Probably not
Moltensteel Dragon
Porcelain Legionnaire

I think it would really add up quickly.
Rage Extractor into Phyrexian Metamorph 4 damage
Moltensteel Dragon -> 12 damage

The trick is to play only with the cards that are good without Rage Extractor. I have done very well both with Metamorphs and Moltensteel Dragons before. The other cards I have no experience playing with.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Okay, another idea that may or may not go anywhere. I was wondering if Rage Extractor could be a viable card for MUD. This card easily addresses the match up against BUG as Phyrexian Mana cards often dodge Abrupt Decay and you can shoot the damage from Rage Extractor on Liliana regardless of whether the card even resolves. For it to work, you'd need a critical density of Phyrexian Mana cards (which also pressures your life total quiet a bit). Here are the once that I think are worth looking at:

Phyrexian Metamorph
Rage Extractor
Slash Panther
Pith Driller - Probably not
Moltensteel Dragon
Porcelain Legionnaire

I think it would really add up quickly.
Rage Extractor into Phyrexian Metamorph 4 damage
Moltensteel Dragon -> 12 damage

The trick is to play only with the cards that are good without Rage Extractor. I have done very well both with Metamorphs and Moltensteel Dragons before. The other cards I have no experience playing with.

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I like the idea and in the past I wondered about it as well. Porcelain Legionnaire and slash panther are good enough to be played in vintage in some versions of MUD, although the former because is an asnwer to lodestone golem and ignot chewer mainly.

I agree that we should play only cards useful on their own, and for this very reason I have to point out the Rage Extractor itself is not good on its own (at least not the first copy, but the others are marginal too): this can be an issue.

Nevertheless I'm intrigued by the idea: do you already have a build?

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Originally Posted by kingtk3

I like the idea and in the past I wondered about it as well. Porcelain Legionnaire and slash panther are good enough to be played in vintage in some versions of MUD, although the former because is an asnwer to lodestone golem and ignot chewer mainly.

I agree that we should play only cards useful on their own, and for this very reason I have to point out the Rage Extractor itself is not good on its own (at least not the first copy, but the others are marginal too): this can be an issue.

Nevertheless I'm intrigued by the idea: do you already have a build?

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This worries me as well. I mentally compare Rage Extractor to Smokestack, which does nothing the turn it comes into play and costs 4 mana. It doesn't look very promising when you compare it like this. On the other hand, being able to switch to a burn strategy without compromising on the threat density sounds appealing. I especially like the fact that once Rage Extractor comes down, counter magic doesn't protect the control opponent anymore. The problem with burn was always that if they burn your creatures, they are not pressuring life totals. A Rage Extractor would not suffer the same fate because after Rage Extractor comes down, every 'burn spell' is an immediate threat, or every immediate threat is a burn spell.

I don't have a list yet, but I'll brew this week. I lean towards the red splash stompy skeleton for sideboard options, Blood Moon, Moltensteel Dragon and Rage Extractor since I think the Phyrexian damage can add up. Perhaps some one with more experience running 12 post could provide some insight into the level of explosiveness and life gain of the mono colored build.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

This worries me as well. I mentally compare Rage Extractor to Smokestack, which does nothing the turn it comes into play and costs 4 mana. It doesn't look very promising when you compare it like this. On the other hand, being able to switch to a burn strategy without compromising on the threat density sounds appealing. I especially like the fact that once Rage Extractor comes down, counter magic doesn't protect the control opponent anymore. The problem with burn was always that if they burn your creatures, they are not pressuring life totals. A Rage Extractor would not suffer the same fate because after Rage Extractor comes down, every 'burn spell' is an immediate threat, or every immediate threat is a burn spell.

I don't have a list yet, but I'll brew this week. I lean towards the red splash stompy skeleton for sideboard options, Blood Moon, Moltensteel Dragon and Rage Extractor since I think the Phyrexian damage can add up. Perhaps some one with more experience running 12 post could provide some insight into the level of explosiveness and life gain of the mono colored build.

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While Rage Extractor and Smokestack both do nothing the turn they comes into play, the former needs phyrexian mana cards to do something, while the latter is a lock on its own, so I don't think they can be compared (and smokestack doesn't see much legacy play anyway).

But still I like RE, at least on paper!

I played the posts mana base both in Eldrazi-ramp and in MUD: if you get the draw of double cloudpost double glimmerpost (consider vesuva in the equation) AND the opponent doesn't have a wasteland, by turn 4 you have 10 mana and gain 7 life, which is huge. However this scenario doesn't happen as frequently as in Eldrazi-ramp because in MUD there is no way to tutor for lands.

There are many times when you draw a couple of tombs/cities/caverns and a lone post which is poor in the early game.

However I think that the posts mana base is a nice improvement for MUD because in the mid-long game it's natural to draw some posts, and it's another way apart metalworker to drop bombs (although this is somewhat unrelated to the current topic).

But I don't think is enough reliable to mitigate the phyrexian damage or to ramp regulary in the first turns, unless you don't play some tutors and deck manipulation yourself.

If you're still not planning to run Chalice then you can run Expedition Maps.

Chalice is one of the main reasons to play the deck.

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Originally Posted by potatodavid

Chalice is one of the main reasons to play the deck.

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Yeah, I was under the impression a turn 1 chalice was one of the best plays the deck can do?

Against creatures, the best card to play is Triskelion . You can knock out 2-3 creatures with it, like Delvers and Pyromancer and his troops. It can also come down and knock out planeswalkers since it damages the player. It's a construct and uncounterable with Cavern of Souls. You can abuse it with Goblin Welder. The other option if you want to play a lower mana cost is Serrated Arrows, which has been discussed. Esperzoa has yet to be tested much, but there are many cards you can abuse counters with such as Chalice of the Void. Maybe someday we'll see an unbanning of Tolarian Academy .

Speaking of crazy cards,

This is my prediction.. MUD will go blue to play this and cut the Cloudposts mana. This new card has been spoiled in MTG Origins

Day's Undoing - 2U
Sorcery
Each player shuffles their hand and graveyard into their library then draws seven cards. If it's your turn , end the turn.

This is like a Memory Jar effect. Finally... should MUD go Deep Blue for this?

Definitely not in MUD. For the same reason why MUD skips Ancestral Recall in vintage.

You know it's a Timetwister right

It's a Memory Jar for 3 that lets you keep all your draws.

I don't even really understand why they didn't just unban Memory Jar instead

Vintage MUD skips that one too. :-)

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Originally Posted by Troll_ov_Grimness

Against creatures, the best card to play is Triskelion . You can knock out 2-3 creatures with it, like Delvers and Pyromancer and his troops. It can also come down and knock out planeswalkers since it damages the player. It's a construct and uncounterable with Cavern of Souls. You can abuse it with Goblin Welder. The other option if you want to play a lower mana cost is Serrated Arrows, which has been discussed. Esperzoa has yet to be tested much, but there are many cards you can abuse counters with such as Chalice of the Void. Maybe someday we'll see an unbanning of Tolarian Academy .

Speaking of crazy cards,

This is my prediction.. MUD will go blue to play this and cut the Cloudposts mana. This new card has been spoiled in MTG Origins

Day's Undoing - 2U
Sorcery
Each player shuffles their hand and graveyard into their library then draws seven cards. If it's your turn , end the turn.

This is like a Memory Jar effect. Finally... should MUD go Deep Blue for this?

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My first thought was a blue build with Tezzeret the Seeker and splash a combo like painter/grindstone or thopter/sword.

I played Esperzoa in Vintage years ago. There was a really nice blue deck that ran Mana Drains, Esperzoa, Mishra's Workshops and Elsewhere Flask, bouncing the flask for card advantage, sacking the flask to counter Wasteland and using the flask to get double blue for counter mana. Elsewhere Flask is a nice trick against Price of Progress.

If we're to splash blue... I'm think Sea Stompy with Mulldrifter, Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet, Illusory Angel. Those can go under the Cavern too. I like that Elsewhere Flask, quite a neat card. Also blue adds two taxing effects with the splash:
In the Eye of Chaos
Chill for burn decks

Blue gives what we need just let's take vintage experience - Thoughtcast, and new Timetwister, both gives good refill.

We need locks and mana acceleration which is worst then vintage - no moxes, sol rings or mana crypts and no shops.

Here is my first thought about new build:

4 Trinisphere
2 Mox Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 New Timetwister
4 Phantasmal Image / Copy Artifact
4 Thoughtcast
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chalice of the Void
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Mox Opal


After first testing I think to bump lands count (many mulligans) to 21-22 with some manlands - Factories ? - Many times locked game totally.

Bye staff of nin, welcome http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/...8412617914.png

EDIT: Sorry I read it wrong it doesn't draw cards like staff. We keep Staffs.

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Originally Posted by fogxanic

Bye staff of nin, welcome http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/...8412617914.png

EDIT: Sorry I read it wrong it doesn't draw cards like staff. We keep Staffs.

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Yeah this card is bad outside of 4 EDH decks.

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Originally Posted by darkgh0st

If we're to splash blue... I'm think Sea Stompy with Mulldrifter, Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet, Illusory Angel. Those can go under the Cavern too. I like that Elsewhere Flask, quite a neat card. Also blue adds two taxing effects with the splash:
In the Eye of Chaos
Chill for burn decks

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If you are serious about a blue splash, none of those cards would work without dropping Metalworker, and that's not happening.

Here's the list of blue cards I'd play in MUD

Thoughtcast
Etherium Sculptor
Faerie Mechanist
Master of Etherium
Master Transmuter
Phyrexian Metamorph
Sharding Sphinx

And the only card I think that may ultimate make the cut is Phyrexian Metamorph.

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Originally Posted by Mockingbird

If you are serious about a blue splash, none of those cards would work without dropping Metalworker, and that's not happening.

Here's the list of blue cards I'd play in MUD

Thoughtcast
Etherium Sculptor
Faerie Mechanist
Master of Etherium
Master Transmuter
Phyrexian Metamorph
Sharding Sphinx

And the only card I think that may ultimate make the cut is Phyrexian Metamorph.

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I'd go for master transmuter and metamorph. Also Power artifact for the infinite mana with grim monolith. You can use the mana with staff, hellkite or umbral mantle, although my testing with the latter proved it is too narrow of an effect.

Making a blue brew is on my list, though I'm leaning towards using:
Upheaval
Stroke of Genius
Prosperity
Hive Mind in the sideboard with Pact items

I'm focusing on a stompy build right now without Forgemaster and trying to finish the sideboard. I'm also contemplating on breaking Winter Orb out with Tangle Wires and taxing effects.

For sideboarding, while most would pick Tormod's Crypt, what are people's thoughts on Relic of Progenitus?