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I thought so too, but Preacher targets the player, not the creature, and since it was his creature, hexproof didn't apply. Thats how they explained it. I will research it more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Edit: okay, after researching, i agree with Finn. This was a bad ruling. I will point it out next thursday.
Hexproof (This permanent can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control.)
You still control the ability.
Agreed. Bad ruling. He still would have lost, but this is important for future matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lejay
See, this is why you're in my list of top 5 players. The matchup is abysmal, even post board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lejay
Ok Dan, this being true, could I tap my Preacher when the opponent attacks, have him select the Angel Token and give it to me, and then I take only 2 damage from the Geist? The Angel would just leave the game, unable to block because it comes in tapped?Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Thanks,
Dave
DavidHernandez: Yes, you take just the two. Nothing you can do about the angel being tapped. Even if something gives all his creatures vigilance, that thing is tapped when it hits the battlefield.
monovfox: It won't be quite like Lejay says. We have plenty of classic taxing tools. We just aren't using them all because that deck is not dominant. Other opponents may not have the means to deal with it, but we certainly do.
A single Thorn of Amethyst would be pretty close to ideal here along with the standard Enlightened Tutor package. Their removal suite is not deep. They have the bare minimum. When I have several targets that all must be handled that deck just crumbles. In fact, I have generally not been having nearly the trouble others have been having. It is likely because the format is not what it was in Strasbourg, yet so many players are holding that build as the model. The discussion also brings to light just how narrow Mindbreak Trap is. You don't see me running that card. This is the current build I have posted at Salvation:
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains
4 Mother of Runes
1 Judge's Familiar
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
Sideboard
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Rest In Peace
2 Aven Mincensor
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Cataclysm
Game one still sees a lot of cards with nothing to disrupt, but the sideboard is very helpful.
-4x Phyrexian Revoker
-4x Swords to Plowshares
-1x Stoneforge Mystic
+2x Enlightened Tutor
+2x Ethersworn Canonist
+1x Thorn of Amethyst
+2x Oblivion Ring
+2x Aven Mindcensor
This is not even in the realm of specialized hate either.
My point wasn't that the match-up is unwinnable, because it is and probably more than you think. I was talking about the long-term best move. :)
Sure seems unwinnable whenever I've played it. QQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lejay
I've played 3 games vs. it and have seen another DnT player play 3 games vs. it. Though both of us lost 2-1, the matchup is not unwinnable. It just takes practice and maybe more Oblivion Rings/Leonin Relic-Warders in board. Per the OmniHalls player I've played against, he stated it was the toughest matchups all day for him (other than Merfolk which he lost to).Quote:
Originally Posted by monovfox
Resource denial is key. Wasteland is not as good as Port here. Thalia is great but can be played through. Canonist is even better as it slows them down more. The combination of Thalia and Canonist on board can be game. With a Thalia or Canonist in play, an Oblivion Ring or Leonin Relic Warder put in via Show and Tell is often game. The typical Cunning Wish response to the Ring/Warder triggers with Thalia in play (4 mana for SnT, 1 for Cunning Wish, 1 for Trickbind) requires them to have 6 mana. With Canonist in play, there is no response allowed at all.
They will of course wish for answers but that buys us a turn or two to continue attacking, hopefully for game.
Having trouble picking between this deck and Maverick (4color Punishing). Due to the cards I have I will have to spend more or less the same amount of money to invest in either. Anybody care to elaborate the pros and cons about either decks? I want a deck that will be good in the long run, regardless of the meta changes. Meaning that even when the meta shifts, I'll still have at least even chance against most other decks. :cool:
I don't know for sure, but unless Mav posts good results against Elves, Jund, 12Post, or French Omniscience, I don't know why you would go with Mav. D&T is at least a bit favored against Mav and pounds pretty much everything else, including all the decks that say they beat Mav. I see quite a few references that lump their D&T and Mav matchups together. Big mistake. These guys who prepare for Mav and figure they know how to face D&T are easy pickings.
You can't just pick up the deck and expect to succeed though. Playing with Mav and figuring you understand D&T is just as foolish.
Took my own hybrid version of D and T to a local 80 player tournament last night... made it to top 5..
23 lands (3 ports,3 waste)
4 mom
4 stoneforge
4 phyrexian revokers
4 dark confidant
2 spectral lynx
2 serra avenger
3 Mirran crusader
1 flickerwisp --- I lacked the 4th crusader hence the wisp)
Spells
4 vials
1 batterskull
1 sword of fire and ice
1 jitte
4 stp
3 lingering soul
sb:
4 thalia
3 Rip
1 relic
1 enlightened tutor
2 perish -- thought this would work well vs mav or green decks
2 duress
2 cabal therapy
------------
Round 1: Bant
I win 2-1 Don't remember how.. but lynx proved to be very very useful
Round 2: RIP Helm control.
I win 2-1:
1: Lynx goes all the way.
2. lost due to combo
3. Won with therapies leaving him with nothing. He also mulled to 6 I think
Round 3: RIP Helm Control
1: Win with revokers and more creatuers
2: Lost due to terminus and pyroclasm to combo
3: Almost lost due to energy field.. good thing I found Wasteland in time as I don't really have any disenchant effects.
ROund 4: Death and taxes - a team mate.
Won 2-0..
Round 5- Shardless bug I built the deck around shardless but its all theory, since I have no real playtest vs shardless
Lost 0-2
He has answers to everything even when I had perished him 2 x...I think hes draws were super natural..
Round 6- Nicfit
Won 2-1 With revokers on sensei and deed..
Round 7... Shardless bug again
He gave me the win (politics).. since he can afford the loss, and I couldn't.
End up being number 1 in the swiss, with a 6-1 record
Semi- combo
Game 1: I had no idea what his deck was, and I put him on show and tell, I keep revokers in hand just incase he drops griselbrand as I already had a karakas in play...to my surprise he combos out
Game 2: I mull to 5 but got a Mom thalia land land stp hand which finishes the game in a quick fashion
Game 3: I put a thalia which gets abrup decayed... Then I put in a revoker naming LED.. He goes down to 16... I put down grave hate in relic of progen, and had RIP in hand... Sadly I had to go as it was late and I still had work the next day..> Gave him the win.. He said he could have comboed out 3 turns after since he looked at the top cards of his deck.. I said, it depends if I don't draw anything significant in 3 turns, from another revoker, to discard, tutor or thalia...Means he will be down to 10-12 before he forces himself to combo out.
Ended up top 5..
Revokers were great all day.. And I almost found no need for thalia maindeck, as there are too much Deathrites floating around...
Isn't conceding in return for some kind of payment against the rules?Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
I think soo.. but anyway, it was all in my favor so I didn't really care much for the politics ... As I have no real testing vs shardless
What do you take in and out against shardless in normal D and T anywa
Yes. It's one of the big no-nos that gets you DQ'd, heh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
Lost my post due to log in time out....
Used a ported modern version of the deck and faired 4-2-1
20 lands (4 ghost quarters, 3 waste)
4 Thalia
4 mom
4 arbiter
3 militant dryad
3 revoker
3 flicker
2 stonecloaker
2 Mirran
4 avenger
3 mindcensor
4 vial
4 PTE
Sb
3 leyline of sanc
2 rip
2 canonist
2 oring
2 g prison
2 relic warder
2 timely
R1 merfolk 2-0
R2 esper blade 2-0
R3 Uwb control 2-1
R4 dark maverick 1-1
R5 punishing nic fit 0-2
R6 elves 0-2
R7 rug 2-0
Highlights: kind of unexpected in our meta. Hoses fetch lands and search effects. Arbiter + mindcensor makes people cry add wasteland and ghost quarter for the win.
Lowlights: SB not optimized for the meta. I hate GSZ in maverick,nic fit and elves. Somehow they are able to GSZ and kill me. I also hate scryb ranger.
Took third with this build:
Deck: Death and Taxes 6-9
Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard
Creatures:27
4 Mother of Runes
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Preacher
Spells:11
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Batterskull
Lands:22
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
8 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:15
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Disenchant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Gilded Drake
4 Rest in Peace
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Preacher
Again, Preacher was MVP, coming down on a Show and Tell and then stealing the 7/7 Griselbrand. Gaddock Teeg was awesome all night. Rest In Peace/Surgical Extraction ended the night for Dredge.
I found that I needed better (or more) answers for Show and Tell this time. I guess there are just some matches where the other guy combos off on turn one and there isn't anything you can do. That being said, I have to make sure my opening hand includes a Preacher (to steal for the win) or a Revoker (to stop Sneak Attack). I may pull the Oblivion Ring. I'm finding that my best defense is to have a creature-based hate-card in my board.
Canonist in the main was great. Maindeck Teeg was great. I didn't miss the Arbiters and I didn't miss the Flickerwisp.
EDIT: Everyone knows D&T took 2nd at SCG St. Louis, right? http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/53059
Dave
Nice list.
I haven't seen Sword of War and Peace being used in this deck before. Did you do it mainly for the protection?
Abetman, i was having some problems against GSZ too, Maverick and Elves were boarding something like Harmonic Sliver-type effects, you should use Grafdigger's Cage, that's AMAZING against Tin Finss, Dredge, Reanimator, and also GSZ(which is really bad for us).
Deals with Natural Order out of Elves' lists as well. I think it's a pretty solid 1-2 of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oreia