[Deck] Burn

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Originally Posted by troopatroop

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Vexing Devil
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Forked Bolt
3 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Daze
2 Sulfuric Vortex

3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
4 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest


I think burn without delver isn't really trying, and blue offers alot more than just brainstorm/delver. Daze is wonderful, and Snapcaster -> Price is quite good against the field atm.

does anyone have any thoughts about opening up to blue? What does Mono Red really GIVE you these days? It's actually a fairly cheap splash...

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You might want to post that in the UR Delver thread.

@JPettie Man, Burn does play Fireblast. The deck couldn't care less for its lands.

The new Boros Charm should definetely replace Flame Rift, which is as awful as a spell can get. Don't forget that it can double-strike an Hellspark Elemental or a Vexing Devil, which is also good damage, and protect your permanents from destruction (that's pretty irrelevant, actually).

EDIT: This is what my list will be, after Gatecrash release:

Lands [20]
4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Plateau
5 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

Creatures [11]
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Vexing Devil

Spells [29]
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Boros Charm
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
3 Skullcrack

SB: 3 Disenchant
SB: 3 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 Shattering Spree
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Pyroblast/Pithing Needle

I think it is criminal that we are having a discussion about adding white to burn because of the Buros Charm, and leaving out Lightning Helix.
Skullcrack is bad. SKullcrack will be good in Standard, not in Legacy. If you are going to add a spell because it negates an ability for your opponent to gain life, then you are going away from what Burn wants to do.

People look down on Burn players because our decks are proactive, not reactive. We rarely really have interaction with our opponents, unless they get a jump on us with a problematic creature that we have to deal with. We basically tap mountains and deal an average of 3 damage per mountain tap. It doesn't mean we are any worse or less skilled in Magic then the people who play Force of Will, and Brainstorm. If you add Skullcrack then you have to wait to cast it to maximize the value if the card, and that is not what Burn does, Burn wants you to do the 3 damage. Burn does not want you to pay an extra mana to do it. Otherwise you might as well play Thunderbolt, or Incinerate.
Lightning Helix is good because because for two mana you get a 6 point swing, that you never have to wait to cast. Lightning Helix also lets you target a creature, which is kind of huge for us.

4 goblin guide
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 rift bolt
4 lava spike
4 fireblast
4 price of progress
4 flame Rift
4 boros charm
4 lightning helix

I may take out one fireblast, one price of progress, and a flame Rift so I can add in

4 path to exile

then add the lands, which I could care less about
10 fetch,
4 plateau
3 mountain
2 plains

Flame Rift is awesome, I used to be against it, but I love it. I saw first hand how awesome it was a few weekend ago in Columbus. I opted to play Dragon Stompy, instead of Burn. I was hopeful that I could hit a lot of good match-ups, (I did not, I actually hit all bad match-ups) with the exception of my first round opponent playing Burn. It was game two, I had him dead on board, I knew he had a Fireblast in his hand with two mana to sac and a Flame Rift. (Obviously I did not "Know" this, but the poker player in me had him on that hand. I had an arc slogger in the board, and he had a goblin guide. I was at ten, he was at 6. I had no mana available. he attacked me with his Guide, I knew if I blocked with my Slogger his only line was to firebast the Slogger to give him another turn. I also knew if he did not have what I thought that the game was over. I blocked, he fireblasted the Slogger, I drew a Gathern Raiders, and he scooped. I also had a Jitte on board and a Chalice of the Void at one. If i wasnt aware of the deck, maybe I dont block. It has happened in reverse, while I was playing Burn. I attacked with the seemingly pathetic 2/2 and my opponent let it slip, and I won. Flame Rift makes those plays possible. (also my opponent revealed to me Flame Rift, after the match) that was game three.

game two went as I forget the exact details, but at the end we were both at four, and my opponent was dead next turn. I knew the game was mine. I knew the match was mine. He played a Fame Rift. He forced us to a third game, and possible fourth game. Otherwise the match was mine. Ultimately the match was mine, but Flame Rift gave my opponent a chance where other Burn spells would not.

If you would afford me another Pro Flame Rift story. I was playing Burn (usually do) against enchantress. I got game one, just raced him before he was able to play Solitary Confinement.

Game two, he pre-gamed Leyline. I used Goblin Guide, and Hellspark to get him within eight. He was chump blocking with Argothians, I drew a Cave-in (I sideboard them) cast it, he took 2, to get him to 6, I attacked with two guides, he blocked one. He had two Chill's out at this time. I passed turn. He did a bunch of things that Enchantress does. he drew Solitary Confinement, but was unable to play it. He was forced to pass turn. I top decked a Flame Rift, and won the game, and the match.


I like Path to Exile. There are a lot of times in a match that we have to deal with creatures. Not all the time, but enough times that it is a problem, Path to Exile makes it easier to deal with those creatures. It also fetches lands for your opponent. A good opponent would go for a basic land, if it was an option, but opponents who do not think that far ahead in the game, might go for a nonbasic land, which just adds fuel for Price of Progress.

There is good reason to not run path to exile and it has been beaten to death but the general gist is that the games you lose cause you had path in hand and not a burn spell outweighs the games you lose because you had a burn spell but needed path. Also wanted to mention that they can't get non basics if you path.

Edit: Even if it did, you shouldn't evaluate a card based on your opponent making the wrong play.

Yeah the only time you would want to path anything would be if it had a jitte equipped or against batterskull, but in that case you would probably just be better off with artifact hate like smash to smithereens. I would say it would be good against creatures with life link as well but those are few and far between. The only thing I could think of would be like Baneslayer Angel (which no one runs). Rhox War Monk can still just be killed with burn spells. Path is just wasted spots i.m.o. As for skull crack... ehh no. It's a decent s/b card I guess, but I still probably wouldn't run it there. My s/b is almost all combo and artifact hate.

4x Mindbreak Trap
4x Surgical Extraction
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Smash To Smithereens
1x Shattering Spree

I've had the same s/b for the last year or two and don't plan on changing it anytime soon.

ugh, I did just flake on Path to Exile not being able to fetch non basics. I would still run it. There are always times I need to kill off a creature. (this does not need to be argued, just how I feel on all the matches I have played. (the same argument, about puling a Path when you need a burn spell can be made for creatures, and lands.) might as well only run burn spells and as few lands as you possibly can, if you are going to use that logic.

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Originally Posted by iamfrightenedtoo

ugh, I did just flake on Path to Exile not being able to fetch non basics. I would still run it. There are always times I need to kill off a creature. (this does not need to be argued, just how I feel on all the matches I have played. (the same argument, about puling a Path when you need a burn spell can be made for creatures, and lands.) might as well only run burn spells and as few lands as you possibly can, if you are going to use that logic.

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Your clearly struggling to use logic and so theres no point in arguing with you. The LOGIC in running lands is so that you can playing your spells, and yes, EVERY deck tries to plan as few lands as it possibly can. I dont know how to put this to you, but if a deck can hit its curve with 18 lands, its not gonna run 24. And if its a control deck and its fine with 22 lands, its not gonna 30. EVERY DECK runs as few lands as it possibly can. This has got to be one of the most idiotic posts Ive ever seen. Why post a list and state your reasoning when you turn around with a whining post of "don't critique my list, this does not need to be argued, it hurts my feelings." If you came to the source, youre looking for discussion, if you dont want to argue/discuss, your wasting your time. I shouldnt have expected anything more from someone suggesting path to exile in the burn thread though... Im done.

Edit: Guess im not done... no shit the same argument can be made about pulling a burn/land/whatever spell when you need a path, if you'd bother to read we stated the opposite happens MORE FREQUENTLY. This means that the scenario where you dont want path happens more than where you do. I never said that there isn't a case where you would want path.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

You might want to post that in the UR Delver thread.

@JPettie Man, Burn does play Fireblast. The deck couldn't care less for its lands.

The new Boros Charm should definetely replace Flame Rift, which is as awful as a spell can get. Don't forget that it can double-strike an Hellspark Elemental or a Vexing Devil, which is also good damage, and protect your permanents from destruction (that's pretty irrelevant, actually).

EDIT: This is what my list will be, after Gatecrash release:

Lands [20]
4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Plateau
5 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

Creatures [11]
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Vexing Devil

Spells [29]
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Boros Charm
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
3 Skullcrack

SB: 3 Disenchant
SB: 3 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 Shattering Spree
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Pyroblast/Pithing Needle

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To say something like we don't care about lands because of our essentially last cast spell to win a game requires sacrificing mountains is very hard to swallow. Then again the only thing worse to say would be that Flame Rift is as awful as any spell gets. First off, and before I dissect your deck choices, lands are of few in our deck to begin with being burn and we need to hit them, not for them to be destroyed by a wasteland and set us back a turn because essentially that one wasteland destroying our Plateau we are now losing three damage done to them every turn because we lost a land to cast a one for three spell. Flame Rift is a two for four, and at that it is a one color dependent cast spell, making it an all-star in a one color deck that depends on damage being dealt to someone every turn, especially when someone is at eight and you have a Fireblast to follow. Now you want to replace a staple in our burn decks because it doesn't damage ourselves as well, and because it has two other abilities that have to be put in a perfect situation scenario to even be useful. It also relies on having the addition of white in our deck, and when they wasteland your Plateau and you can't cast your Boros Charm, I will be laughing my way to the bank when I can cast my Flame Rift and I am never afraid of Wastelands just winning the game for my opponent. I know everyone wants to get excited and hope for things to be great for Burn from a new set, especially around spoiler time, but another addition like Skullcrack, which is worse than Flame Rift and costs the same amount, along with having the better option of just playing Sulfuric Vortex which is ten times as good as Skullcrack, is just foolish. Just as a ending tip, and maybe you just don't want to like or accept my opinion but I would not be playing Barbarian Ring in a deck with Grim Lavamancer emptying your graveyard to even be effective, it will become a dead card and get destroyed by Wasteland. I would also think about the effect of drawing something like a Vexing Devil on turn 4-5, when an opponent can literally choose to let it get into play and not do four when if it dealt four, for example: Flame Rift (being drawn over Vexing Devil), would have won you the game, and a turn in Legacy can mean a loss, especially for a deck that falls off very fast late into the game, like Burn. I can see how Vexing Devil can be an awesome turn one, along with the likes of a Goblin Guide, but it doesn't have any effect late into the game when any just straight damage spell would win the game for us. Anyway, I wish everyone the best of luck and I like thinking about changes to Burn, but I will always offer my constructive criticisms and hope they are taken in a fashion that shows I don't mean any harm with them.

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Originally Posted by Atikin

Your clearly struggling to use logic and so theres no point in arguing with you. The LOGIC in running lands is so that you can playing your spells, and yes, EVERY deck tries to plan as few lands as it possibly can. I dont know how to put this to you, but if a deck can hit its curve with 18 lands, its not gonna run 24. And if its a control deck and its fine with 22 lands, its not gonna 30. EVERY DECK runs as few lands as it possibly can. This has got to be one of the most idiotic posts Ive ever seen. Why post a list and state your reasoning when you turn around with a whining post of "don't critique my list, this does not need to be argued, it hurts my feelings." If you came to the source, youre looking for discussion, if you dont want to argue/discuss, your wasting your time. I shouldnt have expected anything more from someone suggesting path to exile in the burn thread though... Im done.

Edit: Guess im not done... no shit the same argument can be made about pulling a burn/land/whatever spell when you need a path, if you'd bother to read we stated the opposite happens MORE FREQUENTLY. This means that the scenario where you dont want path happens more than where you do. I never said that there isn't a case where you would want path.

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I would agree with the statement that the situation occurs when you want a burn spell to just end out a game over anything else, and adding things into an already strong drawing deck, for example: Vexing Devil, Path to Exile , completely distorts our chances of winning games as Burn. As Burn, our every draw, even our starting seven, has to be just right to beat out decks that play very powerful cards. We want the most efficient drawing and acting deck in terms of things like Grim Lavamancer against heavy creature metas, and Sulfuric Vortex against heavy life gain decks. We can go on and on about how great a card would be in the Burn deck, but in the end, if it isn't just straight damage for effective cost, it just doesn't cut it, especially round one of a best of three match.

wow there needs to be an age requirement for this thread.
Nothing hurts my feelings, its Magic the Gathering, grow up kid. I was simply stating you need not waste your time responding (in a hypothetical argument) about adding white to Burn, because Atikin said

"Atikin
There is good reason to not run path to exile and it has been beaten to death but the general gist is that the games you lose cause you had path in hand and not a burn spell outweighs the games you lose because you had a burn spell but needed path. Also wanted to mention that they can't get non basics if you path."

But what do I know? I just read....try it. Logically if we were having an argument about something, and you tell me we have beaten an object to death, then likewise I am going to state my final opinion, and let you know you need not reply....

and no, I was simply being sarcastic, about running the fewest possible lands.....possible..... You cant live your life saying "Well this card is bad because you might draw it when you need something else." Otherwise, just run something else. but you are probably 12 so why bother even talking.

I happen to often find myself saying, "man, I wish this was a Path to Exile right now, instead of card x." Probably happens twice every 4 rounds. Maybe that is not enough to add a Path to Exile in a boros deck, maybe it is,IDK, but talking about it, is the point of this.

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Originally Posted by iamfrightenedtoo

wow there needs to be an age requirement for this thread.
Nothing hurts my feelings, its Magic the Gathering, grow up kid. I was simply stating you need not waste your time responding (in a hypothetical argument) about adding white to Burn, because Atikin said

"Atikin
There is good reason to not run path to exile and it has been beaten to death but the general gist is that the games you lose cause you had path in hand and not a burn spell outweighs the games you lose because you had a burn spell but needed path. Also wanted to mention that they can't get non basics if you path."

But what do I know? I just read....try it. Logically if we were having an argument about something, and you tell me we have beaten an object to death, then likewise I am going to state my final opinion, and let you know you need not reply....

and no, I was simply being sarcastic, about running the fewest possible lands.....possible..... You cant live your life saying "Well this card is bad because you might draw it when you need something else." Otherwise, just run something else. but you are probably 12 so why bother even talking.

I happen to often find myself saying, "man, I wish this was a Path to Exile right now, instead of card x." Probably happens twice every 4 rounds. Maybe that is not enough to add a Path to Exile in a boros deck, maybe it is,IDK, but talking about it, is the point of this.

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Either way, these arguments are of no value to the Burn thread, if it is about someone being called a kid or any age requirements. Feel free to state any opinions, that is what we have at the end of the day, free speech. I just don't find the use in insults and repetitive statements within a completely constructive and open thread.

I would like to point out that in my opinion steppe lynx is without any doubt superior to vexing devil . Let's examine the two cards in differenti moments of the game :

Early game(turn one) : if we play a vexing devil turn one, our opponent will make him die because he can't afford to have a 4/3 creature attacking him on the next turns. Steppe lynx has the same power of vexing devil if we play a fetch (4/5) but she doesn't let our opponent have a choice. She can be killed by a removal , but if our opponent has a removal will surely let vexing devil resolve then kill him.

Mid-late game: they're both bad topdecks. vexing devil will resolve then be killed / blocked like steppe lynx.

So if you're planning a white splash for boros charm or anything else, please don't play vexing devil , play steppe lynx. The only negative aspect of the lynx is that she needs fetches to be strong and forces us to play a number of fetches that goes from 12 to 14 .

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Originally Posted by LeoCop 90

I would like to point out that in my opinion steppe lynx is without any doubt superior to vexing devil . Let's examine the two cards in differenti moments of the game :

Early game(turn one) : if we play a vexing devil turn one, our opponent will make him die because he can't afford to have a 4/3 creature attacking him on the next turns. Steppe lynx has the same power of vexing devil if we play a fetch (4/5) but she doesn't let our opponent have a choice. She can be killed by a removal , but if our opponent has a removal will surely let vexing devil resolve then kill him.

Mid-late game: they're both bad topdecks. vexing devil will resolve then be killed / blocked like steppe lynx.

So if you're planning a white splash for boros charm or anything else, please don't play vexing devil , play steppe lynx. The only negative aspect of the lynx is that she needs fetches to be strong and forces us to play a number of fetches that goes from 12 to 14 .

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Oh god, time to nip this in the bud now. Steppe Lynx is AWFUL. Do not play it, it is only good if dropped on turn one and if you play at least 12 fetches. I played the card in Sligh Zoo and absolutely hated it (Vexing Devil hadn't been released). If I put the deck back together I would absolutely play Devil instead, it's a far better card and is also red. If you're going to splash white, do it for Lightning Helix, Boros Charm, or for god's sake even something like Jotun Grunt, but don't do it for Steppe Lynx.

Could you give some reasons for your statement that lynx is worse than devil ?
Sure lynx needs about twelve fetches ,but apart from this she is better than vexing devil.
i think i don't have to repeat what i said in my last post, but if there is something wrong in my logic please let me know

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Originally Posted by LeoCop 90

Could you give some reasons for your statement that lynx is worse than devil ?
Sure lynx needs about twelve fetches ,but apart from this she is better than vexing devil.
i think i don't have to repeat what i said in my last post, but if there is something wrong in my logic please let me know

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Just based on theorycrafting:

The general gist I get is it has the same weaknesses if not more than devil, and very few advantages. Burn wants every card to count and deal damage regardless of the situation. If you look at the most successful lists, every card (bar lavancer) can do unconditional damage to the face. The problem with devil is that if it isn't dropped on turn 1 or 2 you'd usually rather have a lava spike. Alongside that, a starting hand with devil basically forces you into a play that you might not always want to take, which is to drop the devil ASAP.

Now looking at lynx, its even more restrictive than devil (and most lists don't even run devil, I don't). First off, if you aren't running fetches it plain sucks, but that's not a big deal. Both are bad top decks, even If you draw a fetch after lynx it's not any better than drawing a devil in the same scenario. There's also the obvious that it sucks at blocking. Digging further, if you dont play it by turn 2 at the latest, it'll usually average out to a 2/3. Even if you drop sphinx on turn 1 the most it gets in for on turn 2 is four, same as devil. If you drop it turn 2 it could potentially hit for 6 next turn, but this is pretty much the only positive I see to this card. You also have to remember that it forces you into a play(not fetching) that you might not always want to take. So even the best case scenario has its drawback. Beyond the best case scenario, it's almost strictly worse than devil.

Basically, very rarely will it better than devil, and even devil has been cut for the most part.

I explain more clearly my point of view. Both devil and lynx are cards that want to be dropped turn one, otherwise they're bad.
But if you drop a devil turn one, your opponent can simply decide to take 4 damages and put it in the graveyard. If you drop a lynx turn one, your opponent is forced to face lynx attacking on the next turns, and lynx will hopefully be a 4/5 for at least two attacks.
Aniway, i don't run lynx nor devil, but i think that if you're splashing white and you would run devil, you should run lynx instead.

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Originally Posted by LeoCop 90

I explain more clearly my point of view. Both devil and lynx are cards that want to be dropped turn one, otherwise they're bad.
But if you drop a devil turn one, your opponent can simply decide to take 4 damages and put it in the graveyard. If you drop a lynx turn one, your opponent is forced to face lynx attacking on the next turns, and lynx will hopefully be a 4/5 for at least two attacks.
Aniway, i don't run lynx nor devil, but i think that if you're splashing white and you would run devil, you should run lynx instead.

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If mono red doesnt run devil, i dont see why we would splash and run what youre arguing is an equivalent or slightly better (which its not). If you swing with lynx on turn 2 for four, thats basically the ideal scenario. And devil would have burned them for four anyways. I recommend you just run it and see what we are talking about if you don't believe the arguments we have laid out. Lynx is bad, plain and simple. Even if you manage to convince yourself it's equivalent, we dont run devil so we wouldn't run lynx. Whats the point in splashing for cards that the mono red list already doesn't run.

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Originally Posted by Atikin

If mono red doesnt run devil, i dont see why we would splash and run what youre arguing is an equivalent or slightly better (which its not). If you swing with lynx on turn 2 for four, thats basically the ideal scenario. And devil would have burned them for four anyways. I recommend you just run it and see what we are talking about if you don't believe the arguments we have laid out. Lynx is bad, plain and simple. Even if you manage to convince yourself it's equivalent, we dont run devil so we wouldn't run lynx. Whats the point in splashing for cards that the mono red list already doesn't run.

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Is it possible to run Blood Moon in a Jund/RUG/BUG infested meta?

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Originally Posted by JJ-JKidd

Is it possible to run Blood Moon in a Jund/RUG/BUG infested meta?

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Yes, and it can be very efficient against a lot of decks, even as just a one of when you sideboard.

I side board Blood Moon, it is massively powerful. Of course it has to resolve, but if it does, Jund/RUG/BUG usually cannot recover.
The best part about it, is the look on your opponents face, after it resolves, and they cant play spells. Probably the same look we give on a first turn Chalice for one, and a second turn Chalice for two.

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Originally Posted by iamfrightenedtoo

I side board Blood Moon, it is massively powerful. Of course it has to resolve, but if it does, Jund/RUG/BUG usually cannot recover.
The best part about it, is the look on your opponents face, after it resolves, and they cant play spells. Probably the same look we give on a first turn Chalice for one, and a second turn Chalice for two.

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Im currently working on an SB that looks like this:

3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 blast effects
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Blood Moon
4 graveyard hate of which, I cant think of yet. (suggestions?)

Any thoughts?

Thanks!