What about a package of Submerge, Misdirection, and/or Divert to fight Zoo? Those seem like they give you the most bang for the, er, mana, even beyond Blue Blasts and Swords/Path.
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What about a package of Submerge, Misdirection, and/or Divert to fight Zoo? Those seem like they give you the most bang for the, er, mana, even beyond Blue Blasts and Swords/Path.
Forge-tender sounds terrible. Sure, it blocks all day against goblins, but to say a 1/1 beats is just not right. It may be good to carry jitte, but that's about all it's good for.
im personally of the opinion that a guy who can carry a jitte that they can only remove with 4 cards in their deck who happens to not be a great candidate for those 4 removal spells is pretty good.Quote:
Originally Posted by tivadar
Sorry, but this isn't angel stompy. If equipment was a permanent fixture of Merfolk then this might be good, but it's not. It's *very* questionable whether Jitte should even be run. And are you putting this guy mainboard, or are you wasting sideboard slots for him? Honestly, if you want a good pro-red creature that only has one white in the casting cost, try weatherseed fairies or sea sprite (or thermal glider if you really want him to block).
Or even better, run Mother of Runes, who at least can block against other spot removal. Mind you, I'm not necessarily advocating any of these. I think you need a very strong reason to run any non-merfolk in merfolk, and a 1/1 with pro-red doesn't make the grade in my book.
I dont run jitte. And im aware that a 1/1 isnt exactly huge. But it also essentially counters a firespout. Which is really relevant because if they can force that through on turn 3-4 it ruins your day.
If he's just a 1/1 Pro Red, he'd be a piece of shit, but he functions as a lot more than that.
He's basically a better alternative to BEB. He'll block Kird Ape all day and carry Jitte against Zoo up until you need him to protect a Lord where he counters a removal spell.
So he'll function as a BEB on Kird Ape until you need something better where he functions as a straight BEB that you don't need to stay untapped for.
Against Goblins, he's an answer to turn 1 Lackey that turns into an answer to turn 2 Instigator or anything else, like BEB. He won't stop the CIP triggers on Ringleader or, to a lesser extent, Matron, but you'll never get the opportunity to make that play anyway if Goblins has a Vial. If you run Jitte, then he'll also carry/protect Jitte.
BFT sacs to stop Firespout at any time, whereas holding U open to counter is clunky, and he applies some pressure to Landstill.
Then BFT comes in against Ichorid as Cursecatchers 5-8 (or however many you'd want to run).
I don't think BFT is necessarily better than BEB, but honestly, it's a tough call. I actually agree with you on a lot of the points you make here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
I feel like BFT is just really well-positioned right now, when you think about it. Firespout is probably the sweeper spell that's having the biggest rise in the metagame right now, since most people seem to agree that Supreme Blue is one of the best Counter/Top lists right now, and he's good against that.
I'd agree that he's probably better vs. Goblins than BEB, since he answers turn one Lackey, and he answers Piledriver, which is traditionally a huge fucking problem for this deck to deal with (and something BEB can't touch).
I think Zoo would probably be the match-up where he's weakest, since he can't actually trade with any of the creatures they run, and they don't have that many red creatures. He does, as you point out, hold off their Kird Ape, and he also protects our lords from most of the spot removal they run. Also, he protects us from Price of Progress, which is a lot more nasty when you're running a splashed list of Merfolk.
The fact that BFT comes in against Ichorid, I feel, is the real place where there's room to argue that it's better for our sideboards than BEB/Hydroblast. And something that Forbiddian didn't point out, is that BFT is actually much much better than Cursecatcher in this match-up, because whereas Cursecatcher's ability requires him to have a target (ie an instant or sorcery on the stack), BFT needs no target, he can just auto-sac himself whenever.
Anyways... I'm a little excited over the little bugger; I had actually considered him before but he didn't seem as good to me until Firespout started gaining popularity. I probably wouldn't play more than two copies though.
So, right now, my blue/white sideboard looks like:
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Path to Exile
3 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 OPEN SLOTS
...One thing that stands out to me is that I have no actual blue spells in the sideboard. Does this seem a little weird to anyone else? Also, does the presence of the 2 BFT's mean I could cut either -1 Relic or -1 Crypt? I feel like I need at least a couple slots of dedicated graveyard hate for other match-ups, but right now I feel like I might be wasting sideboard space to have 5 slots for the Dredge match-up.
Thoughts? The main question to me is what to put in the open slots. So far, I have creature hate covered between 4StP/4PtE, and I have graveyard hate pretty well covered. I'm wondering whether people still find Pithing Needle to be worthwhile in the present meta-game? I think it's a pretty awesome catch-all, but I'd like to hear how people are sideboarding these days.
Hello all,
Just want to update you guys all being a merfs player aswell on what happened after a 59 man tourny was held in our place.
Sad to say but all the players who used merfs got crushed to the grounds... there where 5-6 merfs the best finish was 3-3 the rest was very poor...
As for myself i played white winnie and finished with a 4-2 record which was not good enough to grab me a top 8 slot.
the tournament meta was:
40% goblins
20% blue control (thresh variants, landstill, walker, etc.)
10% rock
10% combo (ant, ichorid, dark depths, dream halls, etc.)
20% random decks (dragon stompy, parfait, white winnie, green stompy, zoo, etc.)
Like one of the posts i've read somewhere, i think playing merfs right now is not such a good idea, even against favorable matchups before is not good anymore, blue control decks are packing in sweepers main and some sideboard cards to stop aggro decks.
As for Burenton Forge Tender, yes she's a good card on its own and helps the ichorid matchup but i would rather use absolute law as it proctects all my creatures longer than BFT.
Before when i used to play merfs i don't find it hard to play against ichorid, we could easily disrupt there lands, if you have main echoing truths bounce tokens and go for the kill, and countermagic to counter key spells.
As for jitte running 2 main for me was really good
If the meta was 40% Goblins, I don't think it's too hard to elieve Merf players scrubbed out. Especially assuming that most of them were probably running a mono blue version.
im curious what the folk faithful will think of this somewhat overcomplicated but also interesting sideboard plan.
Qty ED Name Cost Type Rarity Color
// Lands
2 U Tundra Land - Plains Island R Lnd
2 R Volcanic Island Land - Island Mountain R Lnd
4 REW Wasteland Land R Lnd
4 ST Island Basic Land - Island C Lnd
3 ON Flooded Strand Land R Lnd
3 ZEN Scalding Tarn Land R Lnd
//\\
// Creatures
4 SHM Cursecatcher U Creature - Merfolk Wizard U U
4 A Lord of Atlantis UU Creature - Merfolk R U
4 LRW Merrow Reejerey 2U Creature - Merfolk Soldier U U
4 LRW Silvergill Adept 1U Creature - Merfolk Wizard U U
4 M10 Merfolk Sovereign 1UU Creature - Merfolk R U
//\\
// Spells
4 DS AEther Vial 1 Artifact U Art
4 AL Force of Will 3UU Instant U U
4 NE Daze 1U Instant C U
4 OD Standstill 1U Enchantment U U
2 BOK Umezawa's Jitte 2 Legendary Artifact - Equipment R Art
4 R Lightning Bolt R Instant C R
//\\
// Sideboard
0 CNF Path to Exile W Instant U W
0 LRW Burrenton Forge-Tender W Creature - Kithkin Wizard U W
0 CS Jotun Grunt 1W Creature - Giant Soldier U W
0 R Red Elemental Blast R Instant C R
0 ALA Relic of Progenitus 1 Artifact C Art
this list is clearly intended to beat a few specific decks (zoo in particular) while maintaining most of the things that give us good match-ups. i recognize the loss of stifle hurts the combo match-up but its not like we dont have anything else for them and bolt can be rather unexpected in g1 against ANT.
False. I like BFT, but don't overestimate him. Cursecatcher is slightly better (and CERTAINLY not "much much [worse]"), because it can also help counter the sac effect, which is generally a part of a sorcery that they'd like to use against you as well.Quote:
The fact that BFT comes in against Ichorid, I feel, is the real place where there's room to argue that it's better for our sideboards than BEB/Hydroblast. And something that Forbiddian didn't point out, is that BFT is actually much much better than Cursecatcher in this match-up, because whereas Cursecatcher's ability requires him to have a target (ie an instant or sorcery on the stack), BFT needs no target, he can just auto-sac himself whenever.
There are four ways their creatures get into the yard:
1) Cabal Therapy.
2) Dread Return.
3) Ichorid endstep trigger.
4) Combat.
1) Cursecatcher can help counter 1 and 2. 2 Especially is important, as they can sometimes play around one daze or one Cursecatcher.
4) Probably kills your guys too. Blah blah intervening if, you win.
3) Is the only situation where BFT is actually better, and there are many, many outs against that. One important one is Swords to Plowshares. If you can Swords the Ichorid, they can't do this, reducing them to only methods where Cursecatcher is as good or better. Another out is any periodic yard-burning effect, because they need at least two bridges for it to be effective.
And then Cursecatcher can also stop Breakthrough or Careful Study straight off. You'll generally use it for bridge burning, but there's the option. Oh, and it's a 2/2 with a lord, 3/3 with two lords, etc. taps shit to Reejerey, pitches to Force of Will....
BFT is functionally identical to Cursecatcher, but if you want to split hairs, Cursecatcher is a little better. Especially with new Dread return target of choice, Iona, it's still very possible to lose even if you burn all their bridges.
You'll notice that one of the big strengths of white is that it provides the best sideboard options. Blue spells really just aren't as good. I haven't run a blue spell in NoGoyf's sideboard in a very long time. It looks imbalanced, but there aren't really ANY good board cards in blue. Annul... Mind Harness... Chill... I think the best card is BEB, and I think it's been established that if you could possibly run BFT, then you run BFT over BEB.Quote:
So, right now, my blue/white sideboard looks like:
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Path to Exile
3 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 OPEN SLOTS
...One thing that stands out to me is that I have no actual blue spells in the sideboard. Does this seem a little weird to anyone else? Also, does the presence of the 2 BFT's mean I could cut either -1 Relic or -1 Crypt? I feel like I need at least a couple slots of dedicated graveyard hate for other match-ups, but right now I feel like I might be wasting sideboard space to have 5 slots for the Dredge match-up.
I don't really understand Pithing Needle very much. It does... things... but it doesn't do any one thing very well. When I board cards in, I'm always looking to accomplish a specific goal, in spades. I know that Pithing Needle does... things... but I can't think of a single matchup where it would really be that superior to the card you're taking out. Merfolk doesn't run a lot of cards that are dead weight in any matchups, so the board fluff should be cut and your sideboard should just be a seething pit of hate.
If you're looking to add three more cards, you could go: -1 Relic, +2 Enlightened Tutor, +2 Thorn of Amethyst. Obviously I think that's a good play for NoGoyf, but it effectively adds 4 bombs against Storm combo and an extra card against Reanimator or Ichorid.
First of all, the formatting is....Quote:
Originally Posted by yadda
Well, anyway. Red adds nothing at all. There is absolutely no reason to open up a hand and see: Burrenton Forge-Tender, Lightning Bolt, Lord of Atlantis, and need to somehow fetch out TWO non-basic lands against Goblins (or any deck with Wasteland -- or any deck without Wasteland, you can still easily get color screwed when you only have 8 color sources of each off-color, and 6 of those are overlap so you might have to choose).
You're NOT RUNNING SWORDS TO PLOWSHARES! Is Lightning Bolt actually better than Swords?
So sideboard, you get REBs. Honestly, splashing a whole color for a maindeck card that's a very questionable "upgrade" from Swords and then REB sideboard gets a definitive pass from me.
This deck is historically extremely strong against blue decks anyway. Not that there's a reason not to grind your heel into them (I say: kick 'em while they're down!!) and make the win percentage even higher, but there are other matchups that could really use the board slots.
Other than that, I can't really comment. If you take out Bolts, turn them into Swords, you're back onto like the main white splash route, but I can't imagine that stretching your mana base is going to help you against decks running Price of Progress.
Regarding BFT: Ugh, sorry, I was reading the wording wrong. I thought it was "prevent all damage a red source would deal to a single target". I see the point now. And yes, he is an interesting choice.
And yes, I also don't see the point of splashing red for bolt and REB. Outside of the mirror, when is REB that useful? And now you've gone and weakened the manabase to the point where you'd almost just be better off playing Zoo. I'm sure there are some advantages, but red seems like the color I'd want to splash least here. Black at least has some good removal and discard options.
@yadda: There is no reason to bother testing a list that does not include Mutavaults. You may win some games, but the inevitability between Mutavaults and Standstill are a key function of the deck. If the opponent ever discovers that you are not playing Mutavaults, he has no reason to break the Standstill unless you are out in front with the only creature or have a Vial.
@Forge-Tender wielding a Jitte: Are there actually people who still think Jitte is a good choice?
@Pithing Needle: One of the more common targets I want removed is an opposing Vial. You have access to white. Just go with a Disenchant effect.
I asked this above, but it seems no one noticed. Submerge, Misdirection, Divert? All three of these look like they would provide significant tempo boosts in the Zoo matchup. However, I haven't actually played the matchup, so does it turn out that in practice they actually suck or something?Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
Divert is very bad. It might look decent, but there's no time to stay open the first few turns. It can't protect your first lord (unless you wait around, and even if you do, they're going to probably hold burn until you reveal a second Lord in that situation, so they get even more burn out of their guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
They're still going to get 4-9 damage out of Nacatl or Kird Ape before you can Divert the first burn.
And late-game, they can just pay for it. Particularly if they suspect it at all, it's not impossible for zoo to wait until turn 3 to cast the first bolt if you've only played, like, a Cursecatcher and a Lord of Atlantis.
Misdirection represents a tempo boost, and it can be used to kill their early creature and leave you time to take initiative (and even follow up with Standstill). You'll never be able to divert into Standstill. If you're splashing White, a weak ass-substitute like Submerge is just not necessary. I never playtested it because it looked too narrow, but it might work against Zoo or Tempo Thresh.
@Finn: I also don't like Jitte much in this deck, for reasons we both already know. I think BFT could still be good sideboard tech though, if only because he does something in sooo many match-ups. It needs testing, but as far as theorycraft it seems like a solid card for us.
As far as a Disenchant effect, does Seal of Cleansing seem like the best option (in white) to you? I really wish the kicker on Dismantling Blow wasn't so goddamn expensive...
Also, should I really drop the Pithing Needles entirely? I really like them against EE, manlands, Deed, fetches, etc. But maybe their effect is just a little too random.
One more thing: do you really find EIGHT fetch-lands necessary to get consistent mana with a splashed list(?!?!)? Wouldn't like... Six... be enough? Or no?
@Illissius: Submerge and Misdirection are both solid spells. I even like the idea whoever suggested a few pages ago of running one Misdi in the main as sort of a wild card/pseudo FoW number five. Divert is ok, but less solid than either of those teo imho. But in my mind, splashing white gives us better replacements for all three of these cards. Also, I just wanted to say word up because I myself am 1/4 Hungarian. So cheers to that.
@Forbiddian: Lrt me rephrase: BFT is better than Catcher vs Dredge at one thing, and one thing only. That thing is burning Bridges from their graveyard. Clearly I wasn't questioning that Cursecatcher has the additional utility of countering their spells, so you're right Catcher is still better agqinst them overall.
I'd try to run 12 white sources if possible.
It's slightly harder to keep your coloreds up, since suddenly your lands are attacked by stifle and wasteland, whereas before if you draw 2 Islands, you're good.
I'd try to work brainstorm into the list if you're running fetches already. It's so broken endgame. You can almost always shuffle up 2 extra lands or an endgame Vial or other trash, so the card quality advantage is huge.
Adding brainstorm IMO dilutes the deck too much. Yeah its broke late game but early game its a dead card cause you dont wanna leave mana open and the deck really doesnt want to go to too late of a game.
As far as the SB, I actually really like needle. Yeah it doesnt have one superb purpose but its so versatile against things that are amazing vs us that its worth it. Especially against EE as also of decks are running ways to recur it. Also, needleing top is HUGE as top and a basic can find them basics to stay in the game.
Agreed. I think aNother big part of the problem with adding Brainstorm is it assumes you're running fetches. And if you're running fetches, you're probably splashing, which means that most likely you just don't have any open slots.
Maybe in like... A mono-blue list with fetches? (See, it just doesn't really make sense unless you're running a list that's drastically different from the accepted norm of how this deck is built.)