Those are very good choices brent. I've always had a soft spot for haunting echoes and have had it cast on me, not fun at all. I think both telemin performance/haunting echoes are much better than mind slaver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
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Those are very good choices brent. I've always had a soft spot for haunting echoes and have had it cast on me, not fun at all. I think both telemin performance/haunting echoes are much better than mind slaver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
I'd say performance only looks good because the BB cost of echoes is such a backbreaker in a deck playing at most 3 black sources. The power levels in a deck like this aren't even in the same ballpark. Echoes says "if I resolve this I win" whereas performance says "if I resolve this I get a random creature and mill a few cards."
To me though, none are worth running. Fact or Fiction, Crucible, Planeswalkers, DoJ, and even to some extent eternal dragon are all stronger choices that have wider uses than the "oops, I win" 1-of. Cute idea, but largely a waste of a slot imo.
So, question here. What is one to do against combo when the opponent plays 3 successive Orim's Chant/Silences (1 FoW'ed, 1 Negate'd). Was playing a Doomsday deck last night and the dude had 3 in his hand before going off. They just kept coming :cry:
I actually searched the thread and "Doomsday" comes up three times, one post in 2008, twice in the past 3 months without elaboration. Can anyone shed some insight on what to do against this?
Last night, I briefly considered some random options in head, some of which are probably moving slightly backwards in this deck's evolution and will be scrapped in the next few posts. However, I'm considering some of the SB slots that I had which were not used last night, hindsight is 20/20.
1) Misdirection in the SB. This seems like a solid choice, tbh, messing with their Chant and flipping it to them. Not sure if it would have made a significant impact in this case.
@ rockout: if you could get my brain churning on this card, that would be golden :)
2) Runed Halo in the SB. It seems like it would be good for all intents and purposes, naming either Orim's Chant / Tendrils of Agony to allow me to use my counters to deal with the other (when I refer to the latter, I mean in terms of countering Doomsday, etc). Can be Wish --> Tutored for.
3) Ethersworn Canonist in the SB. Honestly, +3 Negate against Combo didn't help (as mentioned above). I did win a Belcher matchup (LOL?) with the same configuration, but honestly, that deck fizzles too much anyways, although I did lose g1. Props are, of course, that it can be tutored up, like Runed Halo.
4) Counterbalance. If someone wants to refresh me on why this isn't run in the SB, that would be great. I tried to search everything I just mentioned, but since it returns results on the said deck, it's hard to pinpoint discussion.
...yeah, that's about it. Thanks in advance for any insight.
There are many storm combo players that uses doomsday, ad nauseam and igg-loop in the same list, one copy of each to search the best for each moment or to play against the deck they are facing. You can find them in the Ad Nauseam Tendrils thread now in DTB Section
Your problem wasn't the fact you got raped by doomsday, but the fact that he somehow got 3 chant effects in his hand.
The best thing to do against combo (imo) is to just sandbag counters, and personally I like having some meddling mages side that can screw around with them as well and put them on some kind of clock at least.
The way I look at my wish side board is this: I have 1-2 flex slot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbid-
This is what I usually run: 14 cards plus a meta slot
3x Engineered Plague
1x Shackles (This is the "4th" Plague)
2x Extirpate
1x Path to Exile
1x Enlightened Tutor
3x Negate
1x Pulse of the Field
2x Relic
When I cast cunning wish, probably 70% of the time it's going for extirpate or e tutor for humility. I have yet to wish for path or negate but I'm sure that will happen eventually. I just think e tutor for humility is better than wishing for path.
The 2 "flex" slots are the 2nd extirpate and the 1 card I didn't name. I've been told the 2nd extirpate is worthless, but eh I like it. These flex slots change from tournament to tournament and can range from chant, crucible, 3rd doj, warmth, cop red, moat, lilianna, 4th negate, shining shoal (my newest tech), volcanic fallout (different color build than UWb, obviously) to 3rd relic.
I have yet to test misdirection but the way I see it is this: Why go for misdirection when your blue cards are the only thing that matters in the combo matchup g1. G1 you can just go for either pulse/negate. G2 you board out your wishes anyway because everything comes in because we have so many dead cards. Pitching blue cards to anything that isn't force seems bad to me. Granted misdirection is hilarious in the mirror when you can misdirection vindicates to protect your elspeths/other stuff. Still not really solid on it but if it works for you run it.
Sorry for double post: We were talking about Telemin's Performance in the control mirror. LS v LS. The only creature people run are clique/e dragon and many people don't run those anymore. Even if you can only mill half their library that is going to put you in an extremely good position for the rest of the game. Hmm, its going to atleast deserve some testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
Isn't it kind of narrow to sideboard just for landstill mirrors? I mean, at least haunting echoes hits rock, countertop etc just as hard.
Thanks for the prompt response :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
My SB is pretty close to yours, actually. I always put in Crucible in your Shackles spot but I didn't need it last night (again, hindsight 20/20). I run 3 Paths so I can side those in against Aggro and the such. And no, I've never wished for Path or Negate either. Weird.
My logic really with Misdirection is that it's an emergency "oh shit" button that can be played with an alternative mana cost, ie, not tapping your lands. I'm not sold on it because I haven't been testing it, but there were times last night where I could have bought time /// won if I could have Misdirected rather than sandbag counters.
Time to MWS with some friends, I guess.
And @ Ectoplasm: Yeah, MM is definitely a choice, but of course I've been busy trading the ones I get as trade stock for other stuff. You think Runed Halo would be better? Again, Enchantments can be tutored up with ET (as well as the Canonsit), so it seems appealing.
I like runed halo but the thing about MM's is that they can stop alot of other decks as well :) Same with Canonist, they rape stormcombo but do pretty much nothing against other decks (except stupid red burn perhaps)
IMO run Halo only if you need more than 4 meddling mages.
Runed Halo is a great silver bullet as a 1-of if you have ways to go and find it quickly. It's ok as a topdeck but really not as valuable. The thing about Runed Halo that is kind of unique is that it can be deployed proactively before the threat or reactively after it has landed in the case of a permanent.
I've won games with Runed Halo naming Tarmogoyf or Nimble Mongoose and obviously it's a great out against Progenitus, since you cannot be dealt damage by him once named and since his Pro-everything means nothing because Runed Halo does not target him.
Good ant players kick the shit out of stupid land still players who think 4 pieces of aggresive disruption is going to do the trick. Your decks arn't made to handle combo/ or fight it; so just sacrifice the rare match up that it is and move on.
-Moss
Runed Halo, BTW, is very good early game disruption against ANT but it quickly loses value later on - since they're going to bounce it before they go off after resolving Ad Nauseum. It's excellent naming Duress early on though, since they become much more nervous about trying to resolve Ad Nauseum without a peeky first.
Except for the damn deck runs orim's chant, mystical tutor, and duress, so probobly not.
It does work early on, to give you maybe a 4 turn window after you land it on turn 2. Then it's done and you need to have something else going.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Orim's Chant isn't as devastating as Duress. You counter chant and they still have to wonder what is in your hand. You counter Duress and then they chant and then you're screwed because odds on having 3 counters are so low they'll go off without thinking about it twice.
What Runed Halo does for you early is cut off Duress completely. It's like having a constant counter in the hand fighting over a few turns. Then it begins to lose effectiveness as they sculpt their hand in response to it and so you need to find something else.
I've been recently considering 3 Extirpates in the SB again. The only reason being that Extirpate wins the control mirror very well. You can rip off their win-conditions/counterspells. It also deals with a matchup that's not favorable, being Ichorid. One single Extirpate is all you need to timewalk Ichorid for many turns (StP their creaturebase) and extirpate bridges.
Extirpate might give you a little edge over the combo matchup as it screws up their Mtutor and against multiple chants, you can extirpate them away if they want to go off with multiple chant protection. The only reason why I brought this up again is because I've been playing 3 Extirpates in my BUG Trinket Painter list, and it's been good. For the aggro matchups, you don't really need to use them so that isn't a problem. It should help the control mirror and combo decks with Chant.
I don't know why Landstill players are trying to find silver bullets in the mirror.
1) You would have to board at least two to reliably get it during the mid-game where you want to cast such a spell.
2) Every silver bullet mentioned is terribly inefficient. Against a deck known for its countermagic, you'll be hard-pressed to resolve said threat, especially post-board.
The way to beat a control deck is relatively simple. You either get better mana than your opponent or you gain card advantage beyond what your opponent is getting. Control decks are too good at controlling the board and the stack once they hit four mana. You need cards that gain incremental advantages and just grind your opponent down. Crucible is probably the best single card against the mirror or Jace Beleren. A third Decree is also very strong in the mirror but leaves you open to your opponent catching up on card advantage while you're improving your board state.
Secondly, against combo decks my boarding plan of 3 Ethersworn Canonists and 2 Negates has been crushing combo. Ethersworn Canonist is amazing against combo because it either slows the game down to a point where you've accumulated enough mana to cast multiple counterspells a turn or bottlenecks the combo player's resources because they had to use them to get rid of the Canonist.
My sideboard looks like this:
1 Extirpate
1 Jace Beleren
1 Planar Void
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Negate
2 Path to Exile
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pulse of the Fields
2 Ethersworn Canonist
My mainboard looks like this:
3 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Wrath of God
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Sensei's Diving Top
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Humility
1 Crucible/Vedalken Shackles
3 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
I like Joel's list but it doesn't fix the problem I've been experiencing lately. I have no problem stopping my opponent's from killing me but I can't reliably get a threat online when my window's open. I added a third Decree and I'm hoping that's enough.
I've been reconsidering 3 extirpates too, due to the meta here shifting towards controllish again. Here's what I'm testing atm:Quote:
Originally Posted by crz87
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Tundra
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [UG] Plains
1 [UG] Swamp
2 [UG] Island
// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [AP] Vindicate
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [A] Counterspell
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [MOR] Negate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
A few points:
-I admit I hated 3 elspeth, but all of my landstill playing friends suggested me to give the 3rd a try. They were right, and it's amazing. First, we want to see it always and early: 2 is not enough for this sake. Second: the 3rd copy allows not only less investment to keep her alive while she's on the board, but also less counter investment to put it on the field. Third: not dead vs any MU. Fourth: better impact in the mirror than doj (they just put EE@0 and doj's gone), due to our superiority having vindicate + extirpate to get rid of our opponent's elspeth without wasting a copy of ours (and EE to get rid of doj, and 5-7 swords to get rid of mishra's). It pushes the opponent better than doj. Five: less dead that doj in most MU's. (Though, incidentally, I love doj). [qoute]A third Decree is also very strong in the mirror but leaves you open to your opponent catching up on card advantage while you're improving your board state.[/quote]A 3rd Elspeth is better.
-less artifact-centered build, so out etutor from the sb for a free space (no humility or such to tutor for g1, no relevant stuff to take immediately g2). Better replaced with an extirpate.
-more solid sb: shackles is amazing as plague#4/path#3, crucible for the mirror, loam, merfolks, etc. (better than a singleton jace), 2 relic to pair with extirpate, 3 extirpate to pair often with negate.
-I always wonder if 2 extirpate may better be 2 orim's chant...
In the appropriate matchups Orim's Chant buys you a turn, Extirpate often wins the game. I just don't see a real comparison between the two. If there was a game-winning combo to protect with chant it would raise the value some but when I had a singleton chant in the sideboard for CWish I almost never went to get it and when I did go for it I lost sometimes anyway. If the opponent plays poorly then chant can win also, as in if they wait until the last second deep in the stack to pop theirs then you can go get yours and essentially have twisted them for most of their hand and storm count. But that kind of combo player you will roll over anyway, chant or no.Quote:
Originally Posted by gustha
@hitman82: I'm not saying that we need to consider the mirror like it's crucial, but I think that of all the suggestions raised against the mirror (Mindslaver, etc), those are cards that don't do much in the other troublesome matchups and takes awhile to implememt.
The control matchup should be won with good decisions on what to counter, and card advantage. If you pack 2 FoF and they don't, if you pack 2-3 Decrees and they don't, you already won. If they do pack these, then you need to know how to play against them and when to resolve yours. Extirpate is really handy because it can single-handedly cut them off 4 FOWs or 3 EEs, 2 Elspeths, giving the mirror an edge.
My main reason for exploring it again, like I said in my BUG Trinket Painter build is that it crushes Dredge. Extirpate gives you a huge edge against:
- Ichorid
- Aggro Loam (much winnable now)
- combo (better chances now, especially the Chant builds)
- mirror
Other less relevant decks:
- 43 Lands
It's still situational card, but I might even see it relevant against Merfolks if you get to FOW their vial and extirpate that away or their LoAs.
I thought about Chant in the Wishboard and it's horrible as what FoolofaTook said. I'd rather have a Stifle to stifle a lethal Tendrils than wait for them to build up for a kill again. But Stifle/Chant are both super dead if they resolve chant against you.
I used to play 2 Extirpates in the SB, and sided both in against less conventional matches e.g. Dreadstill. My philosophy is that if i can nullify their Dreadnoughts entirely, then I'm dealing with a crappy deck that plays 4 Goyfs, which are no matches against my 15 removal MD. The power of Extirpate is that in the right matchup, it really shines as a resource stifler, and shores the matchup in your favor as you no longer have to deal with that particular card anymore. Being uncounterable is just huge and you catch your opponents off guard e.g. when they're cashing SDT to draw a card etc