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sh*t happens, just try to rebuild your list
I would be terrified to cast ad nauseam from any life total with this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
Because of what? The one-of EtW? Remember the BW lists? And you needed to find one more ritual to have mana for your BW->awesomeness so it's not like you were better with BW than with EtW main.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Gatz
It plays like this:
a) Turn-1 hand? Go for EtW.
b) Turn-2 hand? Go for EtW or go for PiF or go for AdN and stop when you're ready to go for EtW/PiF/ToA.
c) Turn-more hand? Kill with PiF.
AdN is tertiary engine.
Ad Nauseam is a Bad Engine. Everyone, who Knies this de l will know this. It's what Carsten Kötter says and Even Timo Schünemann and Ari Lax call it the worst win-con.
Move it to the SB, Cut a Lotus Petal and a Discard spell for cantrips and/or a Second PIF, Play some Basics and start having success as Long as you cantrip Good enaugh.
Wait. What? :tongue: Sorry, but I still don't get that sentence after reading it three times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asgar
But it's true that Ad Nauseam Tendrils is a bad Ad Nauseam deck.
TES is already a lot better, though TES also prefers to win through a natural spell chain.
If you want a good Ad Nauseam deck, try my "BR Opal Storm" deck.
It works a bit like Belcher, only with protection main deck.
Here it goes: (Stop reading if you want to play proper Storm!!)
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Great Furnace
4 Badlands
2 Blackcleave Cliffs /14
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Diamond.
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame /28
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize /7
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
2 Ad Nauseam
2 Empty the Warrens /11
Side:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Past in Flames.
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Burning Wish
1 Grapeshot
1 Thoughtseize
3 Shattering Spree
4 Pyroclasm /15
Extra 4-drop and 2-drops that aren't tutors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
This is something that I've seen a lot of, and it kinda makes me cringe every time. Comparatively speaking, Ad Nauseam is our worst engine, but it is not a bad engine. Yes, it occasionally whiffs, but you can't deny that it's value remains as something we can always do if our grave gets attacked against Past in Flames or if we simply haven't the resources to tutor chain. It's also our most practically hard-castable option, from my experience, so if things go awry, we can always sit back on an Ad Nauseam. It's a very good backup plan, and it's quite decent on it's own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asgar
Also, having read the past few pages, I've become very confused and frustrated. Particularly concerning Sensei's Divining Top. The interaction with Lim-Dul's Vault is cute, to be sure, but the card is slow in its very nature. ANT is already slow(er than other storm decks), but that's because it proactively protects itself with discard to make it more consistent than other storm builds. According to my understanding, SDT slows the deck down even further without offering enough value to offset said consequence. Have I missed something?
QFT.Quote:
Originally Posted by bjholmes3
Greetings,
Iñaki.-
Nope, you didn't. And because the decks becomes slower and slower with every iteration, suddenly new Problem occur which were previously solved by speed (DRS 4 example) and peeps reconfigurate the deck again to beat those cards with a lot of reactive changes which do nothing to actually advance the gameplan aka make it even slower.Quote:
Originally Posted by bjholmes3
That's a downward spiral.
Well, hell. Do what storm used to do: Get frustrated, find a way to combo faster, and just win that way. Hate is helpful, but when it becomes too much, speed up.
-ABC
One other thing that I don't like to see is Empty the Warrens. Amassing an army of goblins loses much of its threat value after turn one, not to mention that it is yet another card that is just slow(er) by nature. Furthermore, it's more answerable by traditional sideboard options. Think about it; exempting commonalities, Tendrils is hated by Leyline of Sanctity-type effects, and is more vulnerable to taxing, I suppose, since a non-lethal Tendrils is arguably less valuable than EtW. Now, EtW is not only another off-color card, but is hated by mass creature removal and the fact that your opponent is not dead. The fact that Warrens is better on lower storm counts is not that big of a deal, as giving the opponent at least 2 more turns to do things is not the best of ideas. As for hate, Tendrils hate overlaps mainly with Burn hate, whereas Warrens hate overlaps with Elves! hate and Weenie variant hate. Which of these is more likely to be found abundantly in your opponent's Sideboard? Also, given that this is Legacy, many decks will laugh at your two turn post Warrens clock. Hardly the insta-win that Tendrils is.
You totally miss the forest for the trees.Quote:
Originally Posted by bjholmes3
EtW found it's way into ANT for the same reason TES runs it for a year: lower stormcount needed to kill, cheaper (manawise) than AN or PIF, not graveyard-dependent.
Many decks like RUG Delver can't interact with a resolved EtW game 1 and opponents bringing in Mass-creature hate against a Spell-based deck are plain stupid because all those cards are dead if you go for AN/PIF/spellchain. EtW puts the opponent for games 2&3 in a difficult position do decide if and how much creature removal they keep to be not 100% cold to EtW.
It's like playing Belcher.dec and arguing against Goblin Charbelcher because the opponent can board Artifact-removal or Pithing Needle ignoring that those cards are dead against the EtW-plan of Belcher
Perhaps my traditionalism is interfering with a good opinion on EtW, but do bear in mind, I'm referring to people who have suggested replacing Tendrils and/or AdN with Warrens. Including Warrens as a supplement to the deck is an entirely different matter than making it the focus.
Empty the Warrens is actually much better than Ad Nauseam against tempo strategies. It is also random sweet against certain combo decks when you have a Therapy hand. I have put in 150+ hours with this deck and have replaced my Ad Nauseam with Empty. It lets me run 2 Grim Tutors comfortably main which makes my Past in Flames better. This has been discussed a ton in the last 6 months or so. You really just need to play different versions of the deck in the current metagame and make a judgment for yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by bjholmes3
Without AN you can indeed throw all the Arguments about the 3cc and 3 damage of Grim concerning AN-flips overboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
But that's no news to me. As i suggested cutting AN months ago because of the issues of being a tertiary engine which fails too often because of the slower nature of ANT (aka loosing more life) and the higher average cc, I was called stupid, 'Cause "AN is still sooooo good". Kinda satisfiying like the predictions that TES and ANT develop towards each other in several elements
There is one little argument which probably is missed when Ad N will be cut - Speed - you can't mostly kill turn 1-2 which mean you will be dead vs other combo decks which can do that, second argument is about life from cards so Ad N for value where your life doesn't matter or your opponent can't deal you final dmg this turn, I strongly suggest just keep ad N even in sb for those MU.
Note also that EtW is much easier answer then lethal Tendrils - EE, Pyroclasm, Plague, Golgari Charm are very common sb cards.
To fight vs hatebears you have two roads:
- have answers vs them (bounce/removal)
- combo out faster before they came on table
Let get scenerio fightning vs Dark Maverick - you have 1-2 turn before first hatebear hit the table, you can tutor single card with 5 mana floating:
what would you cast:
- EtW for 6
- Ad N
The best +EV play will be Ad N bacause you can:
- draw answer vs hatebear
- end the game right there
EtW way have chance to fizzle since he could sb EE/Plague or just fight with SFM/Batterskull,
Someone will ask also about PiF route - sure but in g2 it will be much harder fight with additional dynamic hate like surgicals.
Why the heck do you seriously think your opponents would board creature removal against a storm.dec??
Everytime I read such things I know why some storm isn't more successful. Even some pilots don't have a clue about how the deck works. Depressing
They can have dead so much dead stuff anti-token sweepers are a good idea. Better to play a marginal card than a blank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I usually don't win with Empty more than once in the same round. If you don't play it game 1, they are not going to think you have Empty in your "ANT" deck. If you do play it game 1, they might board in some bad cards for it.
People come up with awkward situations where they say they want to cast AN, but I will say that I never want to cast AN with no mana floating in ANT.
Speed - Empty is actually faster than AN, in that you can go off more often turn 1 before the opponent casts discard, Deathrite, or holds up countermagic.
@Lemnear: I've always been a big advocate of this as well and have been on no Ad Nauseam since January. Glad more people are coming around (sort of… I like the surprise factor of Empty…).
Maybe because people are not that stupid as you think? One Rough/Tumble or Golgari Charm or Pyroclasm or whatever is not going to dilute their deck and if you really think that EtW is that sweet against tempo decks, than why should they miss that fact and lose to it repeatedly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
This thread makes me wanna vomit.
Jep, because topdecking 1/2-offs after getting dismantled by Cabal Therapy and flashback via Goblin tokens is a relyable strategy to battle EtW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
The best you can do is prevent EtW. Fighting it after the goblins are on the field is pretty hopeless from the perspective of a Tempo deck
Because I've watched them do it. However, it's fun when they do and don't draw their 1-of, then lose to my horde of 1/1s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
So we are worried about a one-of here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
I suspect my point to have been misunderstood. You see, should Storm go the direction some suggest and ditch AdN and add all the other goodies, should that become the standard deck, people will begin to sideboard for that changed deck. In all truth, they can't really know if you're going to switch wincons on them, but that was always the case. See, I just want to make the point that, if the deck evolves as some have recommended, the consequence is that people will start to adjuct their boards accordingly, and it is much easier to be prepared for an EtW swarm than it is to be prepared for the other wincons this deck provides. As things stand, replacing AdN or Tendrils or whatever works because that is an unusual metagame call and people are unprepared for it. Should this continue, surprise will not be on your side, and people will be much better equiped to deal with you because, as I've mentioned, they will have less competition for SB slots.
Coming from complete theory, I understand your point… However, when you say things like "replacing AdN or Tendrils or whatever" it makes me feel like you don't understand the point of Empty the Warrens. NOBODY is replacing Tendrils. Empty is an alternative gameplan to Past in Flames or natural tutor chains and gives you options within the game based on your opponent, their opening hand, and your opening hand. Unfortunately people have been "hating out" Ad Nauseam for some time now, and their hate is efficient creatures that attack. If people want to slam a bunch of cards that are specifically good against goblin tokens, that is perfectly fine with me, and it really won't affect how good the deck is against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by bjholmes3
Oh, my mistake. I thought people were actually wanting to do that, and it made 0 sense. The world seems much more orderly all of a sudden.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
Haha yeah, that would be nuts for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by bjholmes3
Oh so, I see. Umm, wait, no. I remember the games when ANT player struggled to do anything reasonable after been hit by my Wastes and counterspells, then he finally made eight smelly tokens and tried to ride them home. That's when my Roughs were helpful, at least a bit more than Dismember...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
But I really don't care.
And? So if they instead didn't have the card, would it be easier to win against the horde?Quote:
Originally Posted by JUNI0R
No. I can't speak for others, but I'm not worried.Quote:
Originally Posted by davelin
Hi there you all!! I'm a couple of days i'll be attending to a gpt in my local town and i was thinking on pushing up ANT. I'd like to hear yours comments on my decklist and some side tips...yeah i'm pretty confidant of my main deck but i feel a bit unsure of what side in and out in specific MU. Here's my deck list:
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [U] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Island (1)
1 [ZEN] Swamp (1)
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Badlands
1 [R] Tropical Island
// Spells
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
1 [ISD] Past in Flames
4 [US] Duress
3 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
3 [JU] Burning Wish
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [ISD] Past in Flames
SB: 1 [NE] Massacre
SB: 3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 [US] Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [PT] Virtue's Ruin
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm
I'm expecting mainly combo, midrange and some burn deck in the meta. Here i detail the sideboard cardchoice (correct me at anytime you want):
Tendrils of Agony: well...
Past in Flames: well
Massacre and Virtue's Ruin: to eat thalias and gaddock. Would this cards be Slaughter Pact?
Abrupt decay: general purpose...CB, enchantress, stax.
Carpet and Swarm: non CB control MU.
Cabal therapy: Combo
Empty the Warrens: i like it whan you need to go off fast and the storm count is not enought for a lethal tendrils.
Chain of vapor: i'm not sure why it's there...i copied it from other deck list. Help would be apreciated.
Moreover...i'll be testing every night (south america) up to friday on MWS (Nickname: Naty!!) if you see me and want to test i'd be graceful.
Thx in advance!
GC.
Chain of Vapor is actually a pretty sick card for storm. Not only is it an answer-all to pretty much anything not named Chalice of the Void at 1 and Counterbalance, it can be a storm generator. Imagine this:
Play LED, LED, Chain of Vapor on LED, sac Land, bounce second LED. Replay LED, Replay second LED. This allows for +3 storm off of a single card. It could be compared to IGG, only not gy reliant, and for 3 less, it's a bargain.
Hence, a beautiful little accessory that could one day save your life in combat...
-ABC
Does the midrange mean Maverick? Because if you have so fast (combo + burn) and maybe non-interactive (if midrange = Jund and such) meta, then maybe you may play without BW as it's a bit faster version.Quote:
I'm expecting mainly combo, midrange and some burn deck in the meta.
I tend to agree. Wish is a mighty tool (in a vacuum) if you have to break through defenses (Therapy) or want access to additional Engines (PIF, IGG, DR) or finishers (ToA, EtW) for the cost of speed. In a meta which contains fast combo, burn and midrange decks, which blow you out after a few turns (Thalia/Cannonist from Maverick; Thoughtseize/Hymn from Jund/BUG), speed is kingQuote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
I also agree. Given your meta, your deck must be as fast as it can possibly be. To this end, I would personally suggest something akin to the following for your MD:
-3 Burning Wish
-1 Discard
+4 Preordain
I suggest Preordain because I feel that you need every cantrip available to 1.) help you get your combo online asap and 2.) protect yourself somewhat from discard 4 cards better.
Also, if Thalia and Teeg are specific things you are worried about, then do consider the inclusion of a SB Karakas. It's gotten me out of many a tight spot, just like George Clooney.
I'm starting to think Thalia, Clique and to a lesser extent Teeg are best answered by not playing Ad Nauseam and by playing Thoughtseize regardless of whether or not you go down the cantrip, wish, tutor or LDV path.
Yes, if you cut AN, there is not much reason to run Duress over Thoughtseize, aside the sum of the damage through T'Seize and Probes in addition to the suffered Combat damageQuote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
ill be playing the same gpt as you (i guess XD argentina right?) who are you??Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
New to ANT, looking to pick up possible cards for the deck as options. In what metas would I want Dark Confidant?
In a pure control meta which doesn't contain counterbalance or SFM & FriendsQuote:
Originally Posted by Darkness
Slosh took it against Maverick when on play to get enough cards (mainly lands) to play around Thalia and then to ultimately Virtue's Ruin them. Otoh, I can't tell if he still plays the Confidant...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
It was also quite good card in mirror, after both players Duressed themselves to nothingness. But... you know, the speed of combo matchups...
Thx you all for the advices!!!!
Indeed do you think that preordain could speed up my deck??
I see BW as "win con". If i get it i just need rituals o LED to win. With preordain i depend so much on Infernal tutor to get my win con!
This is a decklist that is almost a copy of mine (MD): http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...7&iddeck=83648
@Secretly.A.Bee : having decay, creature removal and so on i felt like c of vapor overlaps my side choices. Maybe i'm missing something.
@SaberTooth: you are right! But my indentity will remain in darks... :laugh:
On speed theme: Do you think that lim dul vault could also speed up? Any decklist as example?
What do you think about this?
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...7&iddeck=83644
Thx again!!