[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

@Kavaki

In a combo-light meta, both P-Fire and Scapewish will be favored. They both have great matchups against the fair decks. I would argue that Scapewish has a better Miracles matchup than P-Fire does, but neither is that bad if you play it right.

Ultimately, I think it comes down to playstyle. I don't like Scapewish; it doesn't feel like Nic Fit to me. Scapewish feels like a very different deck than P-Fire. You're on more of a stalling game plan with Scapewish - until you win on the spot. With P-Fire, you're trying to go one-for-one with your opponent's threats, and eventually land your own to ride out the game. Before you land a threat, P-Fire feels like you're washing their board with a pressure cleaner. It plays more like a tempo deck once you land your threat.

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Originally Posted by guelahpapyrus

@Kavaki

In a combo-light meta, both P-Fire and Scapewish will be favored. They both have great matchups against the fair decks. I would argue that Scapewish has a better Miracles matchup than P-Fire does, but neither is that bad if you play it right.

Ultimately, I think it comes down to playstyle. I don't like Scapewish; it doesn't feel like Nic Fit to me. Scapewish feels like a very different deck than P-Fire. You're on more of a stalling game plan with Scapewish - until you win on the spot. With P-Fire, you're trying to go one-for-one with your opponent's threats, and eventually land your own to ride out the game. Before you land a threat, P-Fire feels like you're washing their board with a pressure cleaner. It plays more like a tempo deck once you land your threat.

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I would not disagree with this comparison.

Its been a couple weeks since I last showed for legacy, but miracles has a small showing there. However the people who play it, play at level very close to Joe Losset, so I feel like it is something I should consider.

After reading both y'alls posts, im still stuck. On one hand, I am a natural combo player as I enjoy the "Oops, I win" appeal, so Scapewish seems like my cup of tea. However I also played Pox (I liked how it played at the time), so I do enjoy the grindy game.

My biggest flaw as a player is SB and evaluating what feels bad in a match-up outside of the obvious "Duress sucks vs. Goblin" type of situations. So im there.

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Originally Posted by MrIggins

Personally I think Scapewish is more powerful because it always has the possibility of going "oops I win" while still being able to grind out games. Punishing Fire is a bit more consistent because it gets to play more fetches, so its opening hands are better and it's less prone to having the wheels fall off, but you're less likely to be able to just win and you'll have to grind out opponents pretty frequently. It depends which you feel more comfortable with. Personally I love the raw power of Scapewish and the difficulty many opponents will have with effectively interacting with your plan, and I feel a bit less comfortable as a player playing decks that will usually have to grind out opponents game after game, but it comes down to preference and playstyle IMO. I think the decks are probably at about the same level overall. If you care about such things, I believe Punishing Fit is the only one to top 8 a StarCity open, but I know Arianrhod and I (and others) have had success with Scapewish at smaller events with fewer rounds.

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Just a clerical note, but actually there was a GBW Pod version (piloted by Paul Ewenstein) that took 2nd place, I believe, a few years ago -- SCG Providence, I think?

But yeah, in more "modern times," P-Fire is the only top 8 -- Scapewish has picked up 3-4 top 16s, though.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Just a clerical note, but actually there was a GBW Pod version (piloted by Paul Ewenstein) that took 2nd place, I believe, a few years ago -- SCG Providence, I think?

But yeah, in more "modern times," P-Fire is the only top 8 -- Scapewish has picked up 3-4 top 16s, though.

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Yeah unfortunately I can't travel as much as I'd like for tournaments :wink:

But rest assured, I will be slinging more fires at the Invitational next month.

Poked through some of this thread (it is long, so didn't read all of it).

I'm looking to implement a combination of Punishing Nic Fit+Burning Wish for utility. I really do not like the Scapeshift finish, but love the flexibility Burning Wish offers.

Would love some input on my current deck list which can be found here

Regards,
~Jeff

Wow. Burning wish AND punishing fire? I don't know what to think.

The only thing I have to suggest is taking out the ravine and putting in the 4th Grove & maybe more slaughter games.

Ravine has actually been over performing in all the games I've tested. Fetching it with Primeval Titan is big game - makes them deal with two threats instead of just one.

Generally my first titan trigger grabs ravine and strong hold.

I could get behind more Slaughter Games in the board (to have one or two to board in as opposed to just Burning Wishing for it). Not sure what I want to cut though. Think it is better than a REB?

~Jeff

Dryad Arbor has been universally terrible across all versions of Nic Fit that have been tested here -- obviously trust your own instincts over the talking heads on the internet, but just keep a close eye on it while testing.

I like the Raging Ravine, actually. Part of me wonders if you're going too deep on the utility lands because of your Loam background, but at the same time, I can't deny that it makes your version extremely potent for Primeval Titan. Titan has a variety of powerful targets that can be switched around depending on the board state/matchup, and that's obviously a pretty strong thing.

Not a fan of the 2/3/1 Forest/Swamp/Mountain distribution. Singleton Mountain is strong, and triple Swamp is for when you have a Swamp in hand / tapped-in-play and you want to Explorer into a Liliana, I'm guessing. That's like the only thing that you could really want the third Swamp for, though -- the third Forest seems much more important to me, even though you have the Groves as additional green sources.

Creature base is basically the same as P-Fires, which is generally agreed upon. I'd still like to see some Huntmasters because they've done a ton of work for me in Scape, and, as recently noted, they're arguably better in Punishing lists because you can control the flips much easier. Space is a consideration, though, and aside from that pesky Dryad Arbor I'm not seeing a lot I would cut for Huntmasters.

How has having a Zenith in the board been for you? I tried that for a while in Scape, and while I would sometimes board one out to increase Zenith density in certain matchups, I was almost always happier to have the full set main in game one.

I like the Pyromaster tech. I've been thinking about her a lot lately, for both Scape and other red lists, but I haven't worked up the balls to actually try her. How's she been?

Dreadbore is real bad IMO. It works in Loam because you're a much more mana-light deck there -- you're putting a lot of resources into mana denial and your green is often tied up with Loaming, so you can't afford 2RBG for Pulse -- 1RRB is much easier. In Nic Fit, though, you have much more mana, and while Dreadbore is a redundant Pulse, honestly, I'd rather just see another Pulse if you feel you need a second copy of that effect.

Not running a Pyroclasm to Wish for is kind of a sin. BW-Pyro is a super common line in Scape, both offensively (to set off your Explorers if you don't have a black source) and defensively (kills Geist, elves, empty tokens, and a host of other problems).

The extra Slaughter Games you're wanting are busy being Trinispheres. It's an open question really which one is actually better -- they're both good vs different things. I'd say maybe consider a 2/2 split between Games and 3ball....most of the time vs like, say, Sneak Attack, you're going to be boarding in the Slaughter Games anyway (your prime Wish will be Reverent Silence because of Leyline of Sanctity; if they don't have Leyline, Thoughtseize is usually fine).

Good feedback. I think a 3rd forest over third swamp seems sane, I was simply trying to balance out the black in my mana base since Groves lead to SO much green mana.

Chandra has been very good. Doubly so when I have a top on the field.

Speaking of, my one "flex slot" that I've been moving around is the second eternal witness. It might become the third top. That card is so good.

There are two things I like the Dryad Arbor for:

1.) It lets me use a fetch land to flash back a therapy. Very good VS combo decks.
2.) It lets me play a Primeval Titan into an opposing Liliana and not have it get edicted away.

Huntmaster always felt like a giant do nothing for me. Sure, I can flip him all around with Punishing Fire, but if I have Fire online - why do I need the extra few points of damage from Huntmaster? Feels win more. Most times I'd rather wait till one more mana and get fetch tragglesworth.

That is a really good point on the Dreadbore, I do like having two of that effect, two pulse could be the right answer.

Re: Pyroclasm - do you think the board needs Damnation and Pyroclasm in the Wish package? The main thing Damnation hits that Clasm misses is Goyf/Goose - but deed mops those up.

Finally - 2/2 on Games/Trinisphere seems good. I just like Trinisphere to have *some* form of disruption when my opponent has a leyline out. What match ups do you want three REBs in though? Is it just again Mono-U and high tide?

Thanks for the input!

~Jeff

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I like the Pyromaster tech. I've been thinking about her a lot lately, for both Scape and other red lists, but I haven't worked up the balls to actually try her. How's she been?

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Wouldn't Garruk, PH be better? Or maybe the third Liliana?

@Jeff:

I know Qweerios was working on a similar idea about a month ago with Burning Wish just as a utility spell. I don't know if he has since abandonded the idea or not but I believe he started talking about it around page 260 or so if you want to check that out.

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Originally Posted by JeffHoogland

Chandra has been very good. Doubly so when I have a top on the field.

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Have you tried Garruk, Primal Hunter? I still swear he is the best threat to be running in any non-scapewish versions of this deck. He provides so much advantage and beats a Jace or Lily.

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Originally Posted by JeffHoogland

Speaking of, my one "flex slot" that I've been moving around is the second eternal witness. It might become the third top. That card is so good.

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You definitely want a 3rd top. The only time I have ever seen anyone have success with Nic fit with less than 3 tops is when they are also running blue and brainstorms. Top completes this deck, and you want to see one every game.

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Originally Posted by JeffHoogland

There are two things I like the Dryad Arbor for:

1.) It lets me use a fetch land to flash back a therapy. Very good VS combo decks.
2.) It lets me play a Primeval Titan into an opposing Liliana and not have it get edicted away.

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I've never found arbor with while, but as you mentioned when its good, its good. Try arbor out, but dont assume it should be an auto-include because you have GSZ.

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Originally Posted by JeffHoogland

Huntmaster always felt like a giant do nothing for me. Sure, I can flip him all around with Punishing Fire, but if I have Fire online - why do I need the extra few points of damage from Huntmaster? Feels win more. Most times I'd rather wait till one more mana and get fetch tragglesworth.

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I have also been, only unimpressed with Huntmaster in Pfire lists. In scape, hes ok because he stales for a while, but Thrun has always been a boss in Pfire lists because that version excels at keeping the board clear.

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Originally Posted by JeffHoogland

That is a really good point on the Dreadbore, I do like having two of that effect, two pulse could be the right answer.

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I dont think you need 2 pulses. You just dont need dreadbore.

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Originally Posted by JeffHoogland

Re: Pyroclasm - do you think the board needs Damnation and Pyroclasm in the Wish package? The main thing Damnation hits that Clasm misses is Goyf/Goose - but deed mops those up.

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I think both are good. In scapewish at least, pyroclasm is the card I wish for the most, followed by Thoughtseize and Scapeshift. The only carrds pyro doesnt kill are goyf, batterskull, goose and KotR. It litterally kills every other relevant legacy creature. RUG is also an amazing matchup, so dont worry too much about goose or goyf.

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Originally Posted by JeffHoogland

Finally - 2/2 on Games/Trinisphere seems good. I just like Trinisphere to have *some* form of disruption when my opponent has a leyline out. What match ups do you want three REBs in though? Is it just again Mono-U and high tide?

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I have never tried trinisphere, but I have tried Games. I dont like games at all. Its ok as a 1 of. But most of the time, against combo, you want to be able to interact on turns 1-3 and it would be better if it was just another REB or thoughtseize.

I would run this as the Wishboard:

1 Damnation
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pyroclasm
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Reverent Silence
1 Slaughter Games
1 Haunting Echoes
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction

Green Sun's Zenith I think is better maindecked. I tried it in the SB and it was bad. If you want a "creature" in the wishboard, try reanimate. Every time I dont run it, I wish it was there.

Haunting Echoes is not necessary, but it is the best "Oops I win" card besides scapeshift.

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Originally Posted by HoneyT

@Jeff:

I know Qweerios was working on a similar idea about a month ago with Burning Wish just as a utility spell. I don't know if he has since abandonded the idea or not but I believe he started talking about it around page 260 or so if you want to check that out.

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Im currently on a Wish Fit brew. In limited testing, I really like it and after reading about it on here (somewhere) and testing it, Tsunami is a very fun card. Maybe a little cute, but I did make a High Tide player walk into it by not going off when he should of and losing counterspells going after 'sieze/cabal.

However, as I said a couple pages back, im being more than open to adjust builds. At leas that means I can play the deck, but run a different cversion every so often to throw people in my meta off.

Couple of problems with peoples' opinions here.

-) Pyromaster is relevant control in that it can, you know, kill things. Like Bobs. Nic Fit doesn't like Bobs. Granted that P-Fire versions can handle that a bit better than other versions, but the ping/noblocks is probably fairly relevant. More importantly, note that Jeff isn't running Sakura-Tribe Elder or Sylvan Ranger as a backup ramp-guy. He's on mono-Explorer. That being the case, the difference between 4 and 5 is very real, and the difference between RR and GGG even more so.

-) Tsunami and Haunting Echoes are still unplayable. It's like Bryant Cook finally finding his jap foil Temporal Fissure. He's gonna troll the everliving fuck out of people with it at his local, but that's where it'll stay. I've tried Tsunami and HE until I was blue in the face. You just don't need it.

-) Reanimate is reasonable, and I share Evan's sentiments that every time I run without it, I wish I had it. However, that's in Scapewish. In Scape, you have an extra Fagtusk, Huntmasters are reasonable targets, extra ramp-guys, etc. In P-Fire, you have so many fewer creatures that your reasonable targets are like, E-Wit, Thrag, and Thrun. Otherwise, you're totally relying on their deck. I mean, 2 life for a 5/6 is always fine, don't get me wrong. But the way I see this list shaping up, you don't really want Burning Wish to be a "bomb," per se -- P-Fire and its iterations have always been heavy control decks, generally relying on either Thrun + Wolf Run or Primeval Titan to kill people. Everything else is to get you to that point. If you feel compelled to put a wishable wincon in the board, I'd honestly say something like Rakdos's Return would be reasonable....something that can turn a lategame Wish into a boomheadshot. I'm really not convinced that anything more than that is necessary or desired.

-) @Jeff: don't overestimate the mana production of this deck, especially since you're only running the Explorers and not the ancillary ramp guys. If you're playing against something swarmy like Elves or Affinity, 2RR is significantly cheaper than 3RBB, and often means the difference between a win and a loss. Barring ludicrous Tower/Explorer openers, you're not going to have that much mana that quickly. Much more common of a start is something like, Therapy -> Zenith.Explorer + flashback + Wish.Pyroclasm; or, Therapy -> Explorer + Deed -> t3 blow up the things. Either way, you're blowing up things on turn 3, which is why Elves is often a chancy matchup for Nic Fit -- Elves is commonly a turn 3 deck, and can sometimes turn 2. Damnation is nowhere near fast enough. Personally, while I understand that Punishing Fire kind of serves the Pryoclasm function of keeping the small guys down, I prefer to let my Deeds handle the big guys and shore up the early game a bit more.

-) Also, 2 E-Wits is generally unnecessary. 3rd Top is much better for sure.

-) In defense of Slaughter Games, Jeff's list has 2 maindeck Thoughtseizes in addition to the Therapies, as well as a pair of Lilianas. Post-board, he picks up extra Seizes and REBs. While relying solo on the Slaughter Games is bad deckbuilding, Jeff's got more than enough early defense to justify a pair of Slaughter Games with the express intention of boarding them BOTH in. You tear apart their head, then while they're down, you knee them in the nuts and take away whatever they need most.

-) RE: REB -- mostly High Tide and Omni, but also Sneak/Show (still deals with half of their enablers), and situationally ANT/TES. It's really not wonderful in those matchups, but you frequently have enough dead cards that one or two tend to come in, and with luck you can potentially nab a Brainstorm in resp to a Therapy or some such. Note that I personally don't board in REB vs blue-based control decks -- you generally don't need the help in those matchups. Miracles might be an exception if that deck makes a resurgence, as I predict it will. Hitting their Brainstorms to stop them from putting Miracles back on top is big game.

-) You may miss not having Carpet of Flowers as a backup ramp source for vs tempo, and a replacement ramp source against basic-heavy blue decks that have a tendency to take your Explorer mana and untap into massive threats (especially planeswalkers).

Thanks for the input guys. I've added a Pyroclasm to my wishboard, moved the second e-wit to a third top, and cut my 3rd trinisphere for a 2nd Slaughter Games.

I don't want to cut all the Trinispheres because I want SOME way to interact with generic combo when they have a leyline on the table.

Will keep testing this week and likely do a write up of sorts after SCG Cleveland where I plan to play this :)

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/jund-fits/

~Jeff

So, a little off-topic, but what made you decide to pick up Nic Fit to everyone?

Personally, someone played it one night and it just oddly struck me that, "Hey, those cards you dont see in Legacy, but because you drop so many lands, you can afford to play Prime Time." I also wanted to play a fair deck at the moment and not Hive Mind.

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Originally Posted by kavaki

So, a little off-topic, but what made you decide to pick up Nic Fit to everyone?

Personally, someone played it one night and it just oddly struck me that, "Hey, those cards you dont see in Legacy, but because you drop so many lands, you can afford to play Prime Time." I also wanted to play a fair deck at the moment and not Hive Mind.

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First time I played against it I had a hand. And then my hand was gone!

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Originally Posted by kavaki

So, a little off-topic, but what made you decide to pick up Nic Fit to everyone?

Personally, someone played it one night and it just oddly struck me that, "Hey, those cards you dont see in Legacy, but because you drop so many lands, you can afford to play Prime Time." I also wanted to play a fair deck at the moment and not Hive Mind.

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I was in the market for a new deck, GB was/is my favorite color combination, and loved control decks and decks that don't play by "normal rules" of mtg. I think ultimately it was Caleb D's article on Channelfireball that introduced me to nic fit.

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Originally Posted by kavaki

So, a little off-topic, but what made you decide to pick up Nic Fit to everyone?

Personally, someone played it one night and it just oddly struck me that, "Hey, those cards you dont see in Legacy, but because you drop so many lands, you can afford to play Prime Time." I also wanted to play a fair deck at the moment and not Hive Mind.

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Coming from the world of Counterbalance (and still am), Nic Fit is like freedom from maintaining counts of 1-3 CCs, and can use cards that cost more. It's a lot more fun, too! :cool:

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Originally Posted by kavaki

So, a little off-topic, but what made you decide to pick up Nic Fit to everyone?

Personally, someone played it one night and it just oddly struck me that, "Hey, those cards you dont see in Legacy, but because you drop so many lands, you can afford to play Prime Time." I also wanted to play a fair deck at the moment and not Hive Mind.

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My friend said "Come play legacy with us" and I told him, "I've never played the format but pick me a deck, I'll proxy it up." He found BUG Fit with Jace, Strix, Coiling Oracle, Recurring Nightmare and Consecrated Sphinx, and it was awesome. And then I was a Nic Fit player.

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Originally Posted by kavaki

So, a little off-topic, but what made you decide to pick up Nic Fit to everyone?

Personally, someone played it one night and it just oddly struck me that, "Hey, those cards you dont see in Legacy, but because you drop so many lands, you can afford to play Prime Time." I also wanted to play a fair deck at the moment and not Hive Mind.

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I'm gonna show my age here (so to speak), but I didn't know Veteran Explorer was a card until he was reprinted in the one Commander precon whenever that was. I immediately thought of Cabal Therapy and wondered if anyone else had thought of it yet, so I came to Source to check it out -- and Tao had just started this thread like a week or two prior IIRC.

Incidentally, almost all of my nigh-1000 posts on Source have been in this thread, lol.

I believe I read about a legacy deck playing grave titan. Then I heard the GP ATL was legacy and after I realized pox sucked I read allot and saw videos of this deck. Then I bought bayous and stuff to play. Such an awesome deck

I was a casual magic player until a friend of mine started building up a Stoneblade and humiliating every other player in my table. Then we were all convinced to go into the legacy format. But when went to see the legacy decks all seemed soooo boring. But then i see a deck that can play titans and gives land for everybody. Nothing can be funnier to play.

I picked up Nic Fit during the RUG/Maverick era when it was an excellent meta predator. I shelved Nic Fit when I realized Miracles and SnT decks weren't going away.

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Originally Posted by kavaki

So, a little off-topic, but what made you decide to pick up Nic Fit to everyone?

Personally, someone played it one night and it just oddly struck me that, "Hey, those cards you dont see in Legacy, but because you drop so many lands, you can afford to play Prime Time." I also wanted to play a fair deck at the moment and not Hive Mind.

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I think I had played legacy for a few months with just Goblins. One of our local players, Blake, was playing Nic Fit and it looked pretty interesting, not a normal legacy deck. I started picking up duals and starting playing with. And then of course, I found this thread.

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

I shelved Nic Fit when I realized Miracles and SnT decks weren't going away.

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Miracles has gone away though. Abrupt Decay did that.

SnT isn't going anywhere until Wizards cares enough about this format to adjust the ban list.

~Jeff

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Originally Posted by JeffHoogland

Miracles has gone away though. Abrupt Decay did that.

SnT isn't going anywhere until Wizards cares enough about this format to adjust the ban list.

~Jeff

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Miracles is still floating around #3-5 on TC decks. Its still very much a tier 1 deck.

Not that they care about legacy much, but the idea of linear, brainless, 2 card creature based combos gives the people at WoTC crazy hard-ons. Just look at all the love they give Kiki-jiki in modern. So yeah, wizards I think actually likes S&T. It was just made a judge foil too.

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

Miracles is still floating around #3-5 on TC decks. Its still very much a tier 1 deck.

Not that they care about legacy much, but the idea of linear, brainless, 2 card creature based combos gives the people at WoTC crazy hard-ons. Just look at all the love they give Kiki-jiki in modern. So yeah, wizards I think actually likes S&T. It was just made a judge foil too.

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/barn.

Miracles isn't actually that bad of a matchup for Nic Fit as long as you aren't horrible and set off Explorers and/or you make some slight tweaks (Carpets come to mind, Slaughter Games is another good one). Sneak isn't even really a "bad" matchup -- it's basically a coin toss. Gets much worse if they have Leyline, obviously. Reanimator, TES, 12post, and MUD are the 4 worst matchups, by far. Luckily two of them don't really exist in common diction, Reanimator is usually weeded out later in the day by Deathrite.format, and TES is only an issue really if you're in Bryant/Ning/Royce/Patnode's stomping grounds.

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Originally Posted by kavaki

So, a little off-topic, but what made you decide to pick up Nic Fit to everyone?

Personally, someone played it one night and it just oddly struck me that, "Hey, those cards you dont see in Legacy, but because you drop so many lands, you can afford to play Prime Time." I also wanted to play a fair deck at the moment and not Hive Mind.

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Spike Weaver. Hahaha.

I've been playing Nic Fit since well before I joined the Source. I happened to see a fledgling decklist with Explorers and Therapies once upon
a time on TC decks and fell in love with the idea and immediately started brewing. What can I say? I'm a sucker for value. And playing things people say I shouldn't.

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Originally Posted by kavaki

So, a little off-topic, but what made you decide to pick up Nic Fit to everyone?

Personally, someone played it one night and it just oddly struck me that, "Hey, those cards you dont see in Legacy, but because you drop so many lands, you can afford to play Prime Time." I also wanted to play a fair deck at the moment and not Hive Mind.

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I was playing Enchantress when BUG Landstill was a thing. He used Pernicious Deed on me. I quit Enchantress a few months later and picked up a deck with Pernicious Deed. Haven't looked back since.

I have the staples to play most any non-blue deck, but I would rather play Nic Fit than any of them because Deed. It helps that my local meta is all fair decks with only one Miracles player. If SnT was a thing around here, that would make me switch decks.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

/barn.

Miracles isn't actually that bad of a matchup for Nic Fit as long as you aren't horrible and set off Explorers and/or you make some slight tweaks (Carpets come to mind, Slaughter Games is another good one). Sneak isn't even really a "bad" matchup -- it's basically a coin toss. Gets much worse if they have Leyline, obviously. Reanimator, TES, 12post, and MUD are the 4 worst matchups, by far. Luckily two of them don't really exist in common diction, Reanimator is usually weeded out later in the day by Deathrite.format, and TES is only an issue really if you're in Bryant/Ning/Royce/Patnode's stomping grounds.

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Public Enemy Number One: Storm
Two: 12 Post
Three: SnT

I never found the reanimator matchup to be that bad. I have so much grave hate between Slaughtergames, Scavenging Ooze, Deathrite, and Surgical - GY based combo is such a joke. I would rather play against Reanimator than Miracles - at least if I lose against Reanimator, it happens quickly. In the two years I've been playing Nic Fit, I don't think I've ever played against a MUD deck.

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Originally Posted by guelahpapyrus

Public Enemy Number One: Storm
Two: 12 Post
Three: SnT

I never found the reanimator matchup to be that bad. I have so much grave hate between Slaughtergames, Scavenging Ooze, Deathrite, and Surgical - GY based combo is such a joke. I would rather play against Reanimator than Miracles - at least if I lose against Reanimator, it happens quickly. In the two years I've been playing Nic Fit, I don't think I've ever played against a MUD deck.

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Consider yourself lucky RE@MUD. I've played it......five or six times now, I think, with various versions....only beat it once, and that was only because his deck completely imploded (which, to be fair, is a hazard of the archetype).

I tend to run very graveyard-hate-light. Sometimes there's some Surgicals or Extirpates, but against good Reanimator players that isn't enough because 8/10 they will discard for you first to make sure you don't have any bullshit. Slaughter Games is strong but you need to live that long. My problem is when they go turn one, EoT, Entomb; untap, Reanimate/Animate Dead/Exhume. If they have a little slower of a hand I can usually compete to some degree, but it seems like (vs exactly me) they always have the turn 2 monster -- and even if I mull to Therapy, it either gets forced, or they have multiple reanimation spells in hand. Like, I've had reanimator opponents mull to 4 on the play and still beat me. It's a wonderful experience, let me tell you.

I recognize that some of that is me being unwilling to run the necessary hate to actually beat it, but I'd rather have cards in my board that come in against more things than narrow graveyard answers. The only other deck that we really want gy hate for is dredge, and we have a oddly favorable matchup there, in my experience.

The Dredge matchup I've found to be actually pretty solid, not great but I wouldn't call it bad. Obviously we can just die to their explosive starts quite easily, but if you Zenith up a Sakura-Tribe Elder as soon as possible and just sit on it, it becomes a lot harder for them to get you, since you can kill their Bridges on demand.

I'm actually 2-0 with Scapewish against MUD, again sometimes they just have kill-you hands but then again, so do you, and unless you die quickly you have a shot of getting there with Valakut. Played it at the Somerset Open, killed him game 1 from a board of his Battlesphere+Tokens, Welder and Platinum Emperion, that was awesome.

Agreed at Storm being public enemy number 1. TES<ANT here since ANT is usually a turn slower giving us more of a shot to hit our discard and Slaughter Games. It's not unwinnable, and recently I've been able to take matches to 3 games, but it is definitely not good. Sneak/Show isn't bad with our disruption, I've found. Mono-blue OmniTell seems unwinnable though, it's just so consistent and it's very fast. I mean if you Extract/Games/Surgical their Omnisciences they do have a hard time killing you, they're forced to rely on a Showed in Emrakul, but that's still pretty good as it turns out.

I've never played against 12-Post. Reanimator is in fact awful for us.

MUD I always thought felt favorable if our deck wasn't slow out of the gate. Dredge Always felt like a positive match up. 12post is probably unwinnable. At least for non scape fit versions. You actually have zero way to interact in any way that really matters

Obviously it all can vary - but in general what card is often best to Slaughter Games first against Sneak and Show and MonoU?

Also - looking at the top 16 for the last four SCG events, there is exactly 1 UW deck in the 64 deck lists. Most grinders I know who played that deck for a very long time have all dropped it.

It isn't well positioned any more.

~Jeff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeffHoogland

Obviously it all can vary - but in general what card is often best to Slaughter Games first against Sneak and Show and MonoU?

Also - looking at the top 16 for the last four SCG events, there is exactly 1 UW deck in the 64 deck lists. Most grinders I know who played that deck for a very long time have all dropped it.

It isn't well positioned any more.

~Jeff

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In a vaccum:

vs Sneak:

Therapy calls Show and Tell.
Slaughter Games calls Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.

Reasoning: Therapy is your fastest answer, and SnT is their fastest threat. Sneak Attack is arguably better against us, but it costs 5 mana to play and activate, whereas SnT costs a substantially easier 3, and can be achieved off of Sol Land + Petal, ensuring that you never get a turn.

If you're attacking their enablers with Therapy, you want to go for their monsters with Games, to maximize its damage. Emrakul is far and away the scarier monster -- he enables allows Sneak to recycle their spent threats, he removes our ability to interact by annihilating our lands, and he has protection from Maelstrom Pulse. Additionally, I HAVE Deeded away Griselbrands in the past. It can happen. Emrakul cannot happen. Second Slaughter Games takes Griselbrand, and then you win. Just that simple.

vs Omni:

Therapy calls Show and Tell.
Slaughter Games calls Omniscience.

Same reasoning behind Therapy.

If you look at Omniscience lists, it becomes incredibly hard for them to win without Omniscience in their deck. They can still play things with Dream Halls, sure, but you can't pitch a colorless card to cast Emrakul. They also can't Ant you, ever. Their sole line of play is to Show an Emrakul, which is admittedly still a fine plan -- but it doesn't kill you immediately. Note that LabMan versions can still chain through and win, but LabMan is much rarer than Ants, for whatever reason.

Side note: you could make a legitimate argument in favor of calling Enter the Infinite, since if they Enter via Halls and Show Emrakul with approximately a million counters in hand, it can be a little awkward. However, if you shut down Enter the Infinite, they're much more likely to get an Omniscience into play, and then it becomes a crapshoot as to whether they hit business before you hit another piece of disruption.

IMO, the ideal sequence is to try to snipe their speed kill stuff with your spot discard, then use your Slaughters to target whichever piece they have in hand, thereby buying you more time. If you Thoughtseize and see Show, Omni, [cards], take the Show, then Slaughter the Omni. If you Seize and see Halls, Enter, [cards], take the Halls and then Slaughter the Enter.

Most of the time vs combo, you're trying to play more like a prison deck than a midrange deck. You'll win with whatever random dorks you have going beatdown, but you'll REALLY win by making it so that they can't win through a combination of lock pieces and Slaughter Games on key combo pieces.

Drew Levin wrote a premium article about a Planeswalker Control deck that looks like a BUGr version of Nic Fit, with Veteran Explorer, Cabal Therapy, Innocent Blood, Pernicious Deed, and the Punishing Grove combo.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...In-Legacy.html

I think it will be available for free one month from now.

For those who have a SCG Premium access, what are your thoughts on the deck?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt

Drew Levin wrote a premium article about a Planeswalker Control deck that looks like a BUGr version of Nic Fit, with Veteran Explorer, Cabal Therapy, Innocent Blood, Pernicious Deed, and the Punishing Grove combo.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...In-Legacy.html

I think it will be available for free one month from now.

For those who have a SCG Premium access, what are your thoughts on the deck?

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It looks like a pile. He cut all of the creature presence, which is fine, except he didn't go that far on planeswalkers, which is his intended shift. Losing Zenith as extra Explorers, as well as alternative ramp sources, seems really damaging.

Here's the list for those who don't have premium:


Creatures (4)

4 Veteran Explorer

Planeswalkers (8)

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karn Liberated
3 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (24)

1 Forest
2 Island
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs

Spells (24)

1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Brainstorm
3 Punishing Fire
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Innocent Blood

Sideboard
2 Arcane Laboratory
1 Engineered Plague
3 Golgari Charm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Swan Song
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Perish
1 Slaughter Games

/barning Kevin's thoughts on combo.

Quick thing to add vs mono blue though: Pay attention to their kill condition G1. That affects Slaughter Games calls. Vs Omniclash name Omniscience. Vs Omnimaniac name Enter the Infinite.

You guys that think Storm is public enemy number 1 are insane. I'm something like 9-2 against all flavors of Storm in sanctioned matches alone against respected Storm pilots. Not even including test games. I'm really not sure how you guys are losing games 2 and 3. I'm perfectly willing to share insight for those of you having problems

Show and Tell variants are by far the worst matchups as far as combo goes.

12post is unwinnable except with Scapewish and that's still not favorable.

MUD is very swingy. It's probably about 50/50 in my experience.

I've never lost to Dredge but Reanimator is certainly not easy.

Also, Drew Levin posted an interesting (read: probably not good) Nic Fit-esque list on SCG this morning that's at least worth taking a look at. It doesn't look as good as Nic Fit but is kinda cute.

Edit: looks like you guys ninja'd me regarding Drew's article.