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@Brael: I moved it to Nice-to-haves for a reason :wink:. I'm also under the impression it isn't really needed (I like to make sure I can get some form of lifegain from GSZ X = 1 through 4) but others feel differently, which is reason enough for me to take it seriously. It's just probably not a requirement that is solved by the SB itself but by the SB'ing tables we'll have to come up with at some point.
Just for my own curiosity, 1) how good has Tracker been for its advocates?
2) in what situation do you play him against each deck?
3) is it a (good but) situational card just like Nissa has proved to be? (This is what I think at the moment)
I admit that I am a boring person and that I often am narrow minded, and that is the reason I am asking, to broaden my orizons: I need to break my way of thinking, that is "Give me a good and valid reason to GSZ for this card instead of Rhino (or Sigarda)".
At the moment this way of reasoning has its only exceptions in card like witness (instant value, can instantly win the game) or teeg (hate-lock piece needed to avoid death the following turn) or Drs and ooze (hate piece against gy strategies).
I am obsessed by the "Rhino or gtfo" paradox. Help
That reason often'll be:Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
- I don't have enough mana to GSZ for Rhino/Sigarda and I want to start pressing advantage now
- I have a fetchland in my hand and want to stock up on some gas
- I want to get this GSZ through that Daze my opponent is holding
- I suspect my opponent will FoW my GSZ if I cast it for Rhino/Sigarda so let's try X = 3
- I want to protect another card in my hand from their removal and preferably want to get something out of the exchange
- YOLO
Sounds right, thanks. I'll take note of thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
If that's the case, then I'm not sure what you're asking for. How is "need at least 10 cards for Storm" not pushing the SB in a certain direction? or "must have a card that answers cmc>3 enchantmens"? Are creature decks and graveyard decks not significant decks in the metagame we need to be prepared for, like Storm and enchantments cmc>3?Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not angry or having a go. I just must be clearly misunderstanding you, and I want to understand. I'm confused. Why is 10 cards for storm a must have, but two cards for graveyard decks nice to have? What kind of other requirements are you looking for?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
Draw spells or planeswalkers. Cards that are usually immune to creature removal that draw you more cards or give you continuous card like effects. Things that aren't answered by bolt, StP, decay, terminus or our own deeds. I can't really think of any enchantments/atifacts/creatures that fit that description, and mass removal spells don't draw you more cards or give you continuous effects, so I just shorthand to draw spells or planeswalkers. Maybe thats too narrow thinking for you though, so I just wrote "grindy card advantage effects" in case you objected :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
@Rubblekill, yea tracker has done its job very well for me so far, being a gsun target that can draw 4+ cards where a rhino would draw none. Whether thats an effect you think the deck needs is a different question :)
It's fine, I know you're not having a go or anything :smile:. The differense you ask about is rather subtle. 10 cards for the Storm MU said nothing of what the cards specifically should do, there are plenty of ways to fuck with Storm and all are valid as long as they meet that criterium. Under this requirement even Wasteland is a valid option, for example. And Storm really is a big, giant problem. We often maindeck some tools to battle creature and graveyard decks. Dredge for example already is pretty even G1 since we tend to run DRS, Scavenging Ooze, Pernicious Deed, sacrifice effects and PtEs (exile their Ichorids before they enter their main phase and watch the deck fall apart). Even Cabal Therapy on either LED or Breakthrough is a valid play. Not all MUs're 50/50 or better, but few are as bad as Storm and even less are as hated as Miracles. Besides, thorough GY hate can be considered as anti-Storm card, so it's not that you can't run it. I just want to focus more on "What fucks with Storm" and less on "What fucks with a GY, b/c fuck graveyards". We might come up with exactly the same SB, but with a different mindset.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
The main reason I accepted the must kill enchantments/artifacts > 3 mana requirement is b/c it is a card that will also surely see play vs. Miracles. I know it says "Thou shalt play at least 1 Qasali Pridemage or Reclamation Sage in your 75" :wink:.
Oh so your aim for your requirements was specifically for miracles and storm? I didn't realise that. I think that's off for two reasons:
1) because you still need cards for other matches? Why not change my points to "2 cards for graveyard decks", "2 cards for creature decks". Its a given that those cards might (will) overlap, just like you said the miracles and storm cards will overlap.
2) Also I don't understand why you're worried about storm so much. I've never been a dog against storm. I've always found the match up to be 50/50 and don't really need to revolutionise my sidebaord plan to "fix" it. The plan being, abundance of 1 cmc discard, Gsun into teeg, backed up by minor lock pieces like extractions, other hate bears and sweepers for their backup goblins plan. I play against storm regularly online and have a good friend who pilots both versions.
I didn't realise other people were having such trouble with it. Is it really a big problem here for everyone? Maybe because your curves are higher, and you run less discard?
Edit: just checked my notes and I haven't lost to it online, but I'll still call it 50/50 because my notes only cover recently.
Some people struggle with Shardless BUG, others find Grixis Delver difficult, ANT/TES is my nemesis (partly b/c one of the worlds best Storm pilots just happens to frequent our LGS and also helps other Storm pilots there hone their skills). My record vs. that archetype is truly beyond dreadful. And I run the same amount of discard as anybody else. I've only recently acquired my Canonists though, so that might help the next time I face ANT/TES. Mind you, I've managed to lose after opening with T1 DRS followed up by T2 Surgical his cantrip (to look at his hand), Therapy on Infernal Tutor, flashback Therapy on Chain of Vapor, Gaddock Teeg (yes, that was my T2).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
I guess the focus on those 2 particular MUs is b/c those are the ones I want to improve most and b/c there are very few other things I fear to face (ergo don't want to spend specific sideboard slots on. I'm fine with just having splash damage for those MUs). But just trust me on this one - the demanded overlap in the current requirements model is quite likely to fill in the nice-to-haves automatically.
Against storm I board in: teeg, 2x canonist, 1-2 discard spells (depends on how many ts i play main, usually 1-2 for a 3 ts total in g2-3), 2x surgical, 3 games.
If we count games as dedicated storm hate i board in 9-10 cards.
Do I pass the exam echelon?
With a gold star, good sir!Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
Before I had my Canonists I boarded in Teeg, 3 Duress, 2 Surgical Extraction, 1 Rest in Peace and 2 Golgari Charm. It just wouldn't do.
Next time (based on my current SB) I'll probably board in Gaddock Teeg, 2 Canonist, 3 Duress, 2 Surgical Extraction and 2 Golgari Charm. If that doesn't do it I'm bringing lighter fluid and a match as my next SB.
I seeeeee, I didn't realise this process was so focused on your experiences :P I also disagree that cards in the storm matchup can not be 3 cmc simply because you will end up boarding in 3 cmc sweepers that answer goblin tokens to completely nullify one aspect of their strategy. But I guess ignoring those two outlying slots, cmc 2 or less is a good rule of thumb.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Also I thought the point of adding more requirements was to narrow us down to cards that can then only fit those requirements? Otherwise, I don't think anyone can think of any more requirements so we should move on to the next step?
There're also 2 CMC sweepers that do the same and also have function in the Miracles MU :wink:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
The point of adding more requirements was to narrow down what functions we want a set of cards to fulfill, not to narrow down what cards we want to run :smile:. We want to narrow down those functions as much as possible while putting as few restrictions as possible on the cards we use to perform those functions. SE boils down to specifying what functions a solution should be able to perform without specifying what the solution should be (let this one sink in for a second).
I'm fine with moving this to the next step.
Golgari charm isn't good against miracles (if only terminus said destroy instead of tuck :( . Savvy players side our their counterbalances, and it's not like we need more answer to balance between decay, deed and our Gsun enchantment hate target. Also golgari charm doesn't kill flipped delvers, drs, most eldrazi etc etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
And I guess I still don't get it then. Should our sideboard solution not function against graveyard decks, creature decks and midrange decks? Is that not a requirement of our sideboard solution? If you are only building a sideboard to deal with Miracles and storm, then I guess I'm not interested and will bow out of this particular discussion.
I'm not saying it shouldn't function vs. those decks, I'm saying that those decks will likely get enough splash damage from the set requirements to fullfill the nice-to-haves (that include those decks) and I'm not including them as hard requirements to prevent us from spending too many SB slots on already at least 50/50 MUs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
Am I making any sense?
As for Golgari Charm - its value is dependant of your opponent as far as the Miracles MU is concerned. As for Delver and DRS - I don't care about those and sure as hell don't feel the need to board in more answers vs. those things. Resolve a Rhino (or two) or your own DRS/Scavenging Ooze and ignore those things. As for Eldrazi - is paying 5 life to get rid of something that just smacked you in the face for 5 damage really where you want to be..? Life is a resource, but that way you run out of it really quick.
Here it seems that you didn't lose by lack of cards against storm, but by misplaying them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Starting with surgical may be OKish, but not great. I assume you were OTP? Was the cantrip preordain (in which case I believe it was a misplay to surgical it), or a ponder (in which case it is a good play to surgical it, but only if they did not shuffle)? If it was a BS, the only reason I can see for an ANT player to cast on their turn a T1 BS is to kill t1, and you can immediately name LED, saving your SE.
But the real misplay here is to flashback this therapy. You had an excellent grave control with SE + DRS, and you lose it all. You also lose half of your clock. Was there something threatening in the hand? If yes, flashbacking on it could be a better idea. If not, why not just use Teeg + DRS to put a clock while shrinking the grave, and flashback it a couple of turns later?
It was a Preordain, I wasn't particularly happy about it either. I had to flashback Therapy then and there, he had both the Tutor and a way to get rid of Teeg (the Chain of Vapor) in hand with a bunch of gas to back it all up.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
I fell for the old Cabal Therapy trap - I forgot it's OK to miss when you name the card you fear most since that means they don't have it either way. On a blind Therapy I would've named Infernal Tutor anyway. Anyways - the Storm pilot in question came up with an even more beautiful solution. I also had 3 GSZ in my hand at the time so after the T1 DRS I should have cast GSZ for X = 1, get Veteran Explorer, cast and flashbacked Therapy, Surgicaled his Infernal Tutor and dropped Teeg with the lands from Veteran Explorer. Oh, hindsight. It was a good learning experience.
From my understanding of magic theory written in many articles/books/podcasts, it's usually better to spend a few slots in your sideboard to up the 50/50 matchups than to dedicate many slots against decks you are a dog against. I think people have even done some math on it, google: science of sideboarding. I guess we shall agree to disagree and let you move on with your process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Regarding deluge/charm... you use it on the little guys (mimic, small endless ones, reshaper, displacer, revoker etc) so you can save your targeted stuff for the 4/4s and 5/5s, but yes in dire straits it can get the big guys too. ie, options/influence where golgari charm would have none. Same applies to the tribal decks where charm doesn't kill much. Securing 50/50 matchups. There are other reasons too, like midrange, but I guess again we can agree to disagree and move on.
Edit: Regarding your storm matchup, I guess I have to question your opinion on the matchup if you're supporting your argument with examples of clear misplays :/
Edit 2: I'm just going to stop haha, apologies, you keep doing what it is you want to do, and I'll avoid the criticisms otherwise we will be here all day.
I can hate it b/c I suck at it, lol! Maybe I'll just make a SB consisting of 4 Orim's Chant, 4 Silence, 4 Mindbreak Trap and 3 other cards and then face anyDelver.dec all day long. Or, you know, 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Duress, 4 Hymn to Tourach and whatever tickles my fancy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
I'm perfectly fine with your criticisms, feel free to continue good sir.
Concerning the SB stuff - it'll work out in the end, just bare with me :smile:.
Okay, cool.
I guess what I'm driving at is that the SE fit build was designed from the bottom up as a general all purpose new look at the deck for everyone to learn from.
For this sideboard you seem to be building it entirely for yourself and based on your own experiences. That's not much useful for the rest of us. Maybe it will be in the end, but it isnt from your starting objectives, which is unlike the SE main deck build. Hence the confusion.
I get your point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
I want to keep the SE SB as simple as possible. When you try and expand it to address every MU known to man we'll either start fumbling on "But it can't be done" or the complexity becomes bigger than the attention span the average forum can hold and it all falls down to people blasting through the entire process in a single post (as happened earlier this week).
On one hand this SB addresses a couple of MUs I hate but at the same time do I rarely run into those MUs (especially since some people in the LGS might be on Eldrazi right now to push those decks out even further) so what do I really gain from it? Heck, that's probably a good part of my problem. I don't face them enough to learn how to properly deal with them. I guess I'll have to convince my usual punching bag to switch from Grixis Delver to ANT/TES/Miracles.
Okay, continue with your process then.
I'll be posting a list or two with a complete sideboard and plans later today for the modo challenge tomorrow (I'm saying this now so I'll actually do it)
Unrelated but funny note - I beat Belcher last night 2-0 without casting a single spell. G1 he keeps a 7 card hand and plays 3 GProbes T1 and misses one mana short to cast Empty with his burning wish and scoops. G2 he keeps 7 card hand, probes me and sees 2 TS 2 Therapy 2 lands and a pithing needle and scoops because he can't go off until T2 XD
That's how I normally beat ANT/TES - they Ad Nauseum themselves to death.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
On the preordain, did (s)he keep both cards?Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Otherwise what you propose here would have been an even worst misplay. you should not give two additional mana to storm, it is like giving them a dark ritual.
Additionally, with this line of play, you lock yourself, putting them only in a 5 turn clock with basically very little disrupt (discarding two cards and giving them 2 lands is not a lot, and Teeg is easy to answer, at least by 4-6 cards in ANT post-SB while they still have 8 cantrips to find them)
If they have a chain of vapor + gas, and you have 3 GSZ, I think the plan is not Teeg, or at least not Teeg on GSZ number 1. It is to go grab another creature you are willing to sacrifice, flashback therapy on gas (not CoV) then maybe ooze next turn and Teeg the following. Or if you fear that even after 2x discard on their combo piece they could go off quickly, grab ooze and sac DRS, next turn follow with Teeg. Here you have a better clock and control over grave.
Casting CoV is not free for them, it cost them a card and U. Discarding a combo piece instead could be good.
Do you playtest playing ANT? If not, that is probably what you should do.
Can't remember what he did with his Preordain. I had Teeg in my opening 7, I didn't get it from a GSZ (how could I otherwise have cast both Therapy AND Teeg T2?). Casting and flashbacking Therapy AND GSZ'ing for Scooze on T2 isn't possible either. His hand at that point was something along the lines of Tutor, CoV and at least 3 Petal/Ritual/LEDs and 2 more cards - I would not have lived to see T3, of that much I'm certain and with the right topdeck on his side I still would've been dead on the spot hadn't I flashbacked Therapy. Teeg had to come down on T2 and that CoV had to go too. The risk was way too big. Teeg bought me quite some time, I just whiffed on threats. I topdecked one land after the other. In the end the Storm pilot used a second CoV to not only bounce Teeg but also bounce his Lotus Petals and LED(s) to up his storm count before he made a crapton of goblins., which I couldn't answer in time. Shit happens, no need to dwell on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
I hardly have any time to actually play MtG. Whenever I do it's either with a buddy (who does not pilot ANT) or a tournament at the LGS. Both make for poor playtesting grounds vs. anyStorm.
G2 is no reason to scoop. You have no pressure whatsoever to back up the discard so he can easily draw out of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
I mean I needle Belcher, then shred his hand, and I will draw a threat eventually. Regardless, I don't know whats going on in his head, its his tickets and his concession. I'm not saying anyone should be gaining any insightful knowledge for the belcher matchup here :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Tao
List ideas for the modo Legacy Challenge, feedback/criticism pl0x
Modo meta is heavy Miracles, Shardless, Delver, Eldrazi and Combo (Storm, Reanimator, Show&Tell, Elves)
Two cards like this xxx/yyy? means I'm not sure which and want an opinion.
A sideboard choice with a (?) means I'm not sure and want an opinion.
SFM Fit 61Main/15SB
4 Gsun
1 Dabor
4 Vet
2 Drs
1 Ewit
1 Tracker/Truths?
1 Meren
1 Tusk
1 Sigarda
3 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 Bsk
3 Top
4 Therapy
2 TS
3 Path
3 Decay
3 Deed
21 Land
4 Verdant
4 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Phyrexian Tower
SB
2 Needle
2 SurgExt
2 TS
1 Safekeeper
1 Teeg
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Abeyance
1 Rec Sage
2 ToxDeluge
1 Truths/Sorin?
SB Plans
Miracles:
Disrupt their game plan while pressuring them up the curve and maintaining card advantage.
+2 Needle +2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 Safekeepr +1 Teeg +2 Abeyance +1 Rec Sage +1 Truths/Sorin
-4 Vet -1 Meren -4 Therapy -3 Path
Shardless:
Cut 1-4-1 discard that is bad in the late game for cards that generate card advantage or prevent theirs.
+2 Abeyance(?) +1 Rec Sage +2 Deluge +1 Truths/Sorin
-2 TS(?) -4 Therapy
Delver:
Answer their creatures then win with life gaining equipment/thrag tusk
+2 Deluge
-2 TS
Eldrazi:
Remove their Seer/Smasher before it hits the board, block with vet and kill everything.
+2 Deluge +2 TS +1 RecSage/Sorin? (?)
-4 Therapy -1 Tracker (?)
Storm:
Shred their hand/deck and win with equipped weenies.
+2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 Safekeeper +1 Teeg +1 DiabIntent +2 Abeyance +2 Deluge
-3 Path -3 Decay -1 Tracker -1 Meren -1 Tusk -1 Sigarda -1 Jitte
Reanimator:
Disrupt their combo, find karakas and win with equipped weenies
+2 Needle +2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 DiabIntent +2 Abeyance
-3 Decay -3 Deed -1 Tusk -1 Sigarda -1 Jitte
Show&Tell:
Disrupt their combo, find karakas and win with equipped weenies
+2 Needle +2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 Safekeeper +1 Teeg +1 DiabIntent +2 Abeyance +1 RecSage
-3 Path -3 Decay -3 Deed -1 Jitte -1 Tracker -1 Tusk
Elves:
Slow them down & sweeeeeeep
+2 TS +1 Teeg +2 Deluge
-1 Tracker -1 Meren -1 Tusk -2 Decay (really mana efficient)
D&T:
Get your mana and kill everything
+2 Deluge +1 RecSage
-1 Meren -2 TS
Rhino Fit 61Main/15SB
4 Gsun
4 Vet
2 Drs
1 STE
1 Ewit
1 Tracker
3 Rhino
1 Meren
1 Tusk
1 Sigarda
3 Top
1 Truths
4 Therapy
2 TS
4 Path
3 Decay
1 Pulse
3 Deed
21 Land
4 Verdant
4 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phy tower
1 Volrath's
SB
2 Needle
2 SurgExt
2 TS
1 Safekeeper
1 Teeg
2 Abeyance
1 RecSage
2 ToxDeluge
1 Truths/Sorin
1 ??? My sideboard plan doesn't even need this slot, super weird
SB Plans
Miracles:
Disrupt their game plan while pressuring them up the curve and maintaining card advantage.
+2 Needle +2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 Safekeepr +1 Teeg +2 Abeyance +1 Rec Sage +1 Truths/Sorin +1?
-4 Vet -4 Therapy -4 Path -1 Meren
Shardless:
Cut 1-4-1 discard that is bad in the late game for cards that generate card advantage or prevent theirs.
+2 Abeyance(?) +1 Rec Sage +2 Deluge +1 Truths +1 Sorin??
-2 TS(?) -4 Therapy
Delver:
Answer their creatures then win with life gaining fatties
+2 Deluge + 1 Sorin??
-2 TS -1 Truths
Eldrazi:
Remove their Seer/Smasher before it hits the board, block with vet and kill everything.
+2 Deluge +2 TS +1 RecSage (?) +1 Sorin??
-4 Therapy -1 Truths (?)
Storm:
Shred their hand/deck and cast rhinos.
+2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 Safekeeper +1 Teeg +2 Abeyance +2 Deluge
-4 Path -3 Decay -1 Truths -1 Tusk -1 Sigarda
Reanimator:
Disrupt their combo and cast rhinos
+2 Needle +2 SurgExt +2 TS +2 Abeyance +1 Rec Sage
-3 Decay -3 Deed -1 Truths -1 Tusk -1 Sigarda
Show&Tell:
Disrupt their combo, and cast rhinos
+2 Needle +2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 Safekeeper +1 Teeg +2 Abeyance +1 RecSage
-4 Path -3 Decay -3 Deed -1 Truths
Elves:
Slow them down & sweeeeeeep
+2 TS +1 Teeg +2 Deluge
-1 Tusk -1 Truths -2 Decay -1 Pulse (really mana efficient)
D&T:
Get your mana and kill everything
+2 Deluge +1 RecSage
-1 Truths -2 TS
LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK AND WHICH I SHOULD PLAY. I'll be testing both tonight and tomorrow anyways.
The 2nd list is better because, you know..muh rhinos.
Interesting that you decided to play safekeeper in the side and not in the main. I really don't know where to put that little guy.
2 deluge in the sb is overkill. I don't even know if 1 is needed because I'd rather have golgari charm in this world filled with elemental tokens; if you play 1 deluge instead it is not the end of the world. 2 is overkill.
2 abeyance seems a little defence against miracles. Why not 3 abeyances and 1 less deluge instead? miracles is gonna be the big dog tomorrow and you know it. Shardless will be played a lot as well.
Thanks for the response RubblekillQuote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
Yea I like safekeeper in the side, he basically only comes in when you wanna protect a teeg.
I actually have a spare slot in the sideboard.
I don't really see a world full of elemental tokens, and golgari charm isn't anywhere near as good as deluge against all the random creature decks, midrange, merfolk etc.
If you sideboard in another card against miracles, what extra card would you take out? Currently I'm adding 12 cards and cutting 4 therapy, 4 vet and 4 path. Have to cut another card to add another.
STE? I don't know if I like it, especially in the slowest of match ups..Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
Maybe.. but when you cut all your vets and you only play 21 lands, and all your threats are 4 cmc (unlike the SFM build) I feel like you might want the additional ramp?Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
You play 3 tops..Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
I play 21 lands and I don't have any problem in that regard..but I play a control role and not an aggressive one in that matchup in G2-3, so that might be the reason I usually don't have mana problems (not gonna jam a rhino on t3-4 usually). I'd cut STE, but this remains your call!
I have way less experience with the Rhino build, so I will definitely defer to you here. And that being the case, then I really don't want STE in the main deck if its cuttable against miracles. I'll cut it for scooze. And side out scooze against miracles (sounds reasonable?)Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
I think I am the only one to side out scooze, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I board out meren and ooze for garruk and sorin, so I'd cut ooze but a lot of people here will tell you otherwise. I am not a pro player so it's not like what I say is the best thing to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
I had a similar problem, Jain, where I just had a 15th slot that wasn't being used in any of my plans. This is what I'm looking to take to Charlotte with me for side events:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Deadly Recluse
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
sb::
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Painful Truths
2 Pithing Needle
3 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
3 open
Still trying to iron out the sideboard. Back to Rhinos over Angels for the moment, mostly because I wasn't happy with just how badly damaged Zenith was in the angel-heavy list. I fiercely dislike running out of Zenith targets, which happened sometimes with that deck -- it's likely that the answer is that it's just running too many spells and needs more creatures with spell-like abilities, but I don't have the time or energy to sink into that particular headache at the moment, so I'm just going to Rhino people.
When looking over my sideboard in an attempt to figure out what the 15th slot should be, I came to the conclusion that, as good as Carpet of Flowers is vs Miracles and Delver, they're only really necessary against those two decks. Back a couple years ago, they were better because Stoneblade used to exist. With Blade pushed out of the meta, they just don't come in enough. I think that for Angels, Carpet is still relevant enough to run, since it's important to the gameplan of: hit 5 mana, fist opponent with angels. For Rhinos, though, I think the effect is much less relevant, though still powerful.
Sell Abeyance to me. I understand the theory of it, but what I'm missing is the practical applications. Give me some brief scenarios where you've used it. Obviously in response to Glimpse or Ritual #3 is a great time, but I'm more unsure about Miracles. Do you just fire it off on your main phase and force them to counter it, then do something backbreaking? Do you respond to their Top draw? They still get the draw, though. I'm just not entirely seeing what makes it so great.
I currently have 10 out of a desired 13 for Miracles, so the three slots that are open yet should hopefully end up as Miracles splash, but I feel a bit light for storm, Elves/DnT, Infect, and like 1 card off from Shardless. My Miracles plan atm is -4 Vet -4 Therapy -3 Path -1 Recluse -1 Meren;;; +Sorin, +Elspeth, +Truths, +2 Grip, +3 Sgt Slaughter, +2 Needle, +3?
Abeyance checks off a lot of those boxes, and then the 15th card can be something to piss off Shardless. I just need to make sure I know what the hell I'm doing with it before I actually put it in a list.
Also, depending on the individual list, I'm getting increasingly closer to thinking that Terminus should be Slaughter #2 vs Miracles (#1 obviously is always Jace). It's attractive to systematically remove their win conditions, but realistically, we should be able to kill them quickly enough to not have to worry about Entreat or Mentor as long as they don't have Terminus to stop us from killing them, plus both Entreat and Mentor play directly into our Deeds, Decays, and Top hate anyway.
My rough opinion of decks in terms of number of cards I want for them:
Miracles: yes
Shardless: 4 [-4 Therapy, same as for vs traditional Jund/Junk]
Delver: maybe nothing? Two Painful Truths should probably be boarded out.
Lands: 5-6
Eldrazi: 3-4
DnT: 4 (Meren/Dromoka, probably shaving a Path and maybe the Taiga)
Infect: 7
Painter: 7
ANT: 7
Burn: 4
These make up the main contingent of decks that I believe we need plans for. Reanimator and Sneak/Show might still be popular online, but I believe that both of these decks are relics as far as the current paper legacy metagame goes. Yes, people will still play relics, but neither of these decks is likely to go deep (past round 5-6) at the GP. The preponderance of Grixis Delver, Miracles, and Shardless will stifle both decks, as well as the likely large numbers of Eldrazi. Eldrazi and Grixis should hold ANT's numbers down as well, so we can likely skimp there. It's worth noting, though, that an awful lot of people that play Storm decks tend to be above average pilots with their deck, so it's worth keeping it in mind, I think.
Burn and Death and Taxes will both be popular in raw numbers. I don't know how well either is likely to do, but for at least the first half of day 1, we should expect the in large quantities. There will be a dedicated contingent of Painter players looking to fist people with Blood Moon and turn 2 wins, buoyed by positive Shardless and Lands matchups, as well as I /think/ a favorable Eldrazi win rate? Infect has been doing well lately, apparently, and I expect to see a lot of budget modern converts. Whether or not the lists will be fully powered with Berserks is a crapshoot.
Miracles, Shardless, Eldrazi, Delver, and Lands are the five decks that I want to prepare the most against/for going into the event, with a modest amount of attention paid to Burn and DnT as the primary budget decks. Delver and Eldrazi should need minimal help, Shardless in the middle, Lands above that, and Miracles needs the most.
The trick is going to be finding cards that flex between Miracles and other decks. Honestly, looking at those 7 decks (and even beyond them, at Infect), Slaughter Games doesn't look great. I'm not sure how we're supposed to beat Miracles without an uncounterable answer to Jace [and Terminus], though. Sorin and Elspeth both look pretty great, Grip looks great, Needle looks great. Beyond that, I'm not sure. I'm back to being virulently anti-Teeg after my experience at Mythic last month, so I'm not on board with this whole Teeg + Safekeeper nonsense. We're not Maverick. It's a whole lot less likely that we'll assemble some semblance of reasonable clock to kill them before they recover than it was for Maverick.
Anyway, enough of my ramblings.
-------------
@Jain:
Going down from the top:
I like the Rhino list better, personally, but a large amount of that is bias against Stoneforge, so keep that in mind.
Why no Thrun in the SFM list? You look pretty threat-light, and Thrun is a great dude to suit up. Green Sun looks pretty bad in this deck, so buffing its targets a bit isn't the worst plan.
Justify maindeck Thoughtseize. I get that the modo meta is a bit more combo-based than paper is, but maindeck Thoughtseizes (costing space for Zenith targets) is a pretty steep measure. I would sooner run Safekeeper/Teeg maindeck than two Seizes, I think. They're useful in more than just combo matchups, they're bodies to carry equips, and they're Zenith targets.
3 Path/3 Decay is 1 high imo, but if you want 6 maindeck spot removal, why not use the 3rd Decay slot for a Vindicate, Unmaking, or Pulse, to diversify the suite.
No Painful Truths, in the deck with Batterskull? I guess space is a perpetual problem since the SFM package takes up so much room. That said, Tracker is better -- again, you need bodies for SFM and Zenith, and Tracker is a very above average one.
5 basics with 2 towers is greedy as all hell, I think.
Why a Diabolic Intent in the board? You have it coming in vs Storm, Reanimator, and Show/Tell, but not Elves? You don't really have anything backbreaking to grab with it -- is it just a 3rd Abeyance, basically? Like if you had a 3ball/Nether Void style of effect to grab, I could see it, but when you just have spells and Zenith bullets, and nothing that can actually lock them out of the game, I'm not following you.
On to the Rhinos.
All 4 Rhinos, but no Meren?
8 spot removal is super, super deep in the tank. I'd immediately and happily cut one of those (probably a Path) for a 2nd Painful Truths.
Same question about Thoughtseize.
Mana base looks...better...here. I don't love the Volrath's, but I've learned to ignore it.
For reference, because I think this needs gone into further:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
vs
4 Verdant
4 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phy tower
1 Volrath's
Translates to:
16G 13W 13B +PhyTower +Taiga (my 22nd, which you don't have, so I just dropped it)
vs
14G 13W 13B +PhyTower +Volraths
We have the same W and B, but I have 2 [3] more green sources than you do. If you're comfortable with that, then more power to you -- but I just think the question needs to be asked. I've found not hitting a green source to be one of the most debilitating and quickest ways to lose a game, so I place a pretty high priority on it.
Related: Karakas seems better than plains #2 if you were willing to run 1 plains in the SFM list, especially if you're worried about seeing Reanimator//Show and Tell in large enough quantities to have a board plan for them.
Moving on...
Same question regarding sideboard.
Also, what do you think you want another slot for? What should the open slot turn into, do you think: matchup-based, not individual card choice.
Hope that helps, Jain.
From my point of view you should definitely try (someday):Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
4 Vet/2 DRS -> 4 DRS / 2 Vet
Meren -> Rhino
Tracker -> OK
Deed -> Liliana
Path to exile -> STP (except if you expect a lot of Marit Lage)
SOFI -> Courser
3 tops -> 1 top + 2 Sylvan Lib
Thragtusk -> KotR
Lands (22) 15G 15W 15B
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
Sideboard:
2 Needle
2 SE
1 TS
1 HTT
1 Teeg
1 Ooze
3 Abeyance
1 Rec Sage
2 Engineered Plague
1 Golgari charm
There are some diverse applications - though I've only used it against Storm and Miracles. Very satisfying to cast it in response to Infernal Tutor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Against Miracles, you can fire it off during their draw or upkeep in order to prevent another Jace or Nahiri (yes I'm starting to see Nahiricles online) uptick, as well as in response to the miracles trigger in order to prevent them from casting Entreat or Terminus. I probably wouldn't use it as an anti-counter spell unless you are going to resolve something backbreaking like Choke, Tsunami, Sorin, Garruk, Sigarda, etc. Others with more experience might have more ideas.
Cheers Arianrhod, that does help.
To answer your questions/points:
Yea I think I just realised that the extra sideboard slot should probably be used for a deck that isn't listed in my plan, that's still popular.. like burn, pox, or something. I don't know. Maybe just a flexible card, or another miracles card. Ha, really don't know.
Abeyance: It seems like you missed the key interaction when you described the card, when the draw a miracle (be it eot or in their draw phase) the miracle trigger goes on the stack and says "hey, reveal this and you can play it in a second". While that trigger is on the stack you can cast abeyance and then they can no longer cast it. The miracle trigger resolves but they can't cast it, so it just ends up in their hand and they will have to find a brainstorm to stick it back and then try again next turn. It's basically a remand.
No Thrun because of space, I just like tusk, meren and tracker over him (he was in the build a month or so ago but got cut for not being good enough)
I still don't understand why everyone is so confused about TS :P Maybe it's because I come from a Junk/rock background in modern and legacy where we always play 6 or more discard effects. We live in legacy, you NEED to do something proactive T1 and you need to interact in the early game. I'm so concrete on TS and happy with its play value that I would never cut the two of them. Teeg is useless against 50+% of the meta game TS is useful against 100% of the meta.
I recently cut the truths for another removal spell after stuggling against eldrazi a few times and just wishing I had more removal in hand against delver.
I've played with 5 basics for a long time now, and found it be bare minimum, but good enough. The second tower would become a Marsh flats before another basic I think (and that would help with the mana problems you mention later)
Diabolic intent is to fetch karakas and teeg/safekeeper in their respective matchups. I could cut it (and the karakas) and have a free slot.
RHINOS
4 Rhinos and no Meren because I don't want two 5 drops and five 4 drops. I added volrath's to compensate lack of meren. I guess I can cut a meren for a rhino to diversify (she wins a lot of games..) and then that gives me the extra slot to cut against miracles too. Cheers for the thoughts.
8 removal because I really don't want to lose to Eldrazi AND miracles, plus secure the delver and tribal matchups etc.
ie the game plan is to kill everything and then play fatties. Playing lots of removal spells is half of that plan.
Thanks again for the post, it does help.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post944527Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
And I'm surely missing some nasty tricks along the way.
Using it in response to the Miracle trigger is a good one. That's an application I wasn't thinking of, probably /the/ application.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
And yeah, I've been seeing the uptick of Nahiricles in popularity as well. I'm not really sure what to think of it, to be perfectly honest.