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@Iatee Bummer, sorry to hear it. It seemed like no DnT decks did well overall, with none making it to the top 32.
If you have a free sideboard slot, I really really recommend Pia + Kiran Nalaar for the Miracles matchup. I think a lot of people oversell how good our miracles matchup is, but that card is actually insane against them. It's like, Goblins level of good against them.
Yeah there's no question it's good vs miracles, I've played with it some already. My real problem is it's hard to come up with non-miracles matchups where it's reliably what you want rather than just some fun surprise tech.
I agree, it isn't spectacular in any other matchup, but I feel like Miracles is popular enough of a deck (not in Australia amusingly, but elsewhere) that you should have at least 1 card in your 75 dedicated to beating them. The card is also pretty good in midrange matchup but I agree, not astounding. Also tutorable fliers etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Yeah, I think that's probably true, I'm just not 100% sure the Nalaars are the single best piece of anti-Miracle creature tech out there if that's the plan. But I have been happy to play that card multiple times now and actually regret not including it in my 75 on Saturday. I'd like to try it w/ a larger sample set of games.
I tried a 1 of Hokori and 1 of Pia/Kiran, and did beat my friend who is a strong Miracles pilot last night, though unfortunately won a turn before I could cast Hokori, and Pia/Kiran had to be hardcast into terminus. Still I think if we are doing one-off creatures as Miracles killers, we can totally breach 4 mana since the games go long. What are other 4 mana tutorable creatures that could wreck havoc for them?
I also beat Merfolk and Burn, where having 2 PTEs was again great, and woulda beat Infect if I had hit my 3rd land drop g3 when I had to mull on the play. (My STP was spell pierced.) Completely convinced that taking out Thalias and Maguses is right at this point.
My friend suggested Rakka Mar after seeing it in the MTGO legendary cube. It's not the worst idea, like Pia/Kiran it's good vs Jace (possibly better) and can be protected by Karakas. Does require hard R to activate, but that's not that hard at that point in the game.
Hey guys,
I'm currently looking to get my first serious legacy deck (besides burn) and I'm thinking maybe this could be a good choice? I'm wonder how hard this deck is to pilot with very limited legacy knowledge and how good it is in the current meta? Those are the main things I'm looking for in a deck, as well as maybe future options to build from it. Thanks!
I'm going to say impossible. The deck requires you to know your lines against every deck. It's a nickle and dime deck and you'll lose a lot of games from taking the wrong options if you don't know your deck and the opponents deck well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Figurative
If you're willing to learn the decks in Legacy - then it's a good deck.
(Although to be fair most decks in Legacy require you to learn your deck and opponents decks inside and out to win)
I think its fine in any meta (well other than an Elves meta), you need to learn your deck and tweak it to your local meta and you'll be fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Figurative
Then this isn't the deck for you. The future options are limited - Wasteland and Swords to Plowshares are pretty much your only 'staples' (refer: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-st...egacy/full/all), further down you get to Stoneforge Mystic, so you're stuck moving into Stoneblade (but then you're going blue so you might as well have started with a Brainstorm deck) or Maverick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Figurative
I ran 2 CJ to guarantee drawing the card (for testing)Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Here's my notes. Over the 3 days
Day 1: 11 games
Day 2: 6 games
Day 3: 4 games
Note: I haven't played enough games like this to fully evaluate things / I need more data.
In one matchup vs Mono-white D&T I pulled both CJ's and was able to hit my opponent's Jitte and SoFi - which was ideal in that game. I strongly believe mono-white is favored in the R/W matchup. I've also seen an increase in local players running Mono-white, so perhaps the deck is rising in popularity.
6 of the 21 matches were against Miracles.
Some notes here. Both cards are mediocre against Miracles (mangara and CJ) because the both cost 3 and so does Entreat. So in the late game (where either card is more likely to show up) there's a chance they can counter the spell. Obviously the upside with Mangara is the use of Vial, but this also requires an active Mom, or cutting them off of white when doing so to protect Mangara. I don't see either scenario being likely. A good miracles player is going to have a second white source eventually, and preserving Mother of Runes through Terminus and Swords to Plowshares is never guaranteed. I'm interested in testing this matchup exclusively, and I believe mangara being a creature is significantly better, though both cards are easily handled by a skilled Miracles pilot. My consensus - neither card is great against Miracles and both can be useful in the right spot.
I'm also not in favor of cutting Council's Judgment. It's really good against TNN and other obnoxious threats. It's often our only out in these spots, and more times than not I've managed to get TNN off of the board with it.
How do we beat RUG delver? I played a good 10 games last night against a skilled RUG delver opponent. I am somewhat new to the deck and legacy in general, but the matchup just felt unwinnable especially post board.
The only change I had at winning was being on the play and dropping a t1 vial. If he was on the play, he just went delver, daze my first spell, blind flip delver, then drop either a 2nd delver or gofy/mongoose and a ponder or brainstorm and would just crush me.
Any advice on this matchup in particular?
^Honsetly, RUG is a very good matchup. The scenario you listed - the Delver, Bolt/Daze, Answer the next few things hand - would just about beat any deck in the format so don't feel too bad about it, it happens. The only real dead card in the main is Revoker; the rest are headaches for the RUG player. Post board, make sure not to over extend if you don't have to because the sweepers come in (either in the form of Rough/Tumble or Sulfur Elemental). Bring in Rest in Peace and additional removal.
Agree with above poster, RUG Delver is probably at least a 70-30 matchup for us both pre- and post-board. You definitely play the control role. Barring some sick hands from them (ultra fast Delver beats + all the bolts for our Thalias/Moms) you should be able to stabilize and win most games.
If I'm playing Death and Taxes, I'm hoping to play against RUG Delver every single round :cool:
Hey D&T players!
This weekend I played mono-white Death & Taxes into two local tournaments with 25 and 18 players respectively, the second one was a MKM Series trial. I finished 4-1 in both tournaments, losing only two rounds all weekend against Esper Stoneblade and TES ("won" me in turn 1 both games with 10 EtW tokens: easy and fast).
Here is my list (still being 62 cards :smile:):
4 x Mother of Runes
4 x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 x Stoneforge Mystic
4 x Phyrexian Revoker
2 x Serra Avenger
4 x Flickerwisp
3 x Vryn Wingmare
3 x Mirran Crusader
4 x Aether Vial
4 x Swords to Plowshares
1 x Batterskull
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
4 x Wasteland
4 x Rishadan Port
7 x Plains
3 x Flagstones of Trokair
3 x Karakas
2 x Cavern of Souls
SIDEBOARD:
2 x Council's Judgment
2 x Cataclysm
2 x Pithing Needle
2 x Containment Priest
2 x Ethersworn Canonist
1 x Ratchet Bomb
1 x Sword of War and Peace
3 x Rest in Peace
Pairings:
R1: AggroLoam: 2-1
R2: Grixis Delver: 2-0
R3: BG Dark Depths: 2-1
R4: UB Delver/Death's Shadow: 2-0
R5: Esper Stoneblade: 1-2
R1: Merfolks: 2-0
R2: Merfolks: 2-1
R3: BUG Control: 2-0
R4: TES: 0-2
R5: Deathblade: 2-1
This past weekend I finished very happy with the deck after some weeks with 3-2's in my LGS tournaments, finishing with some bad feelings. I am going to run D&T at MKM Series of course. I am really comfortable with this list but maybe need more meat against Shardless BUG and/or Stoneblade decks. Even with this, I consider this deck is really good right now because it has a decent matchup against all the actual field except Elves.
My latest addition was SoWaP. When touch the battlefield in the correct matchup win it if is not removed from the field quickly, and it is a blast in a list with 3 Mirran Crusaders...
I accept some advices or questions. I want to improve more and more with this deck because although I have been playing it for a bit more than 2 years, I do not want to miss anything, and even more with MKM Series in 10 days.
I would suggest shaving down to 60, you could cut 1-2 of the beaters (avenger/crusader). also I have never understood the use of flagstones..... it doesn't do much and it doesn't work with rest in peace in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koke_MTG
Flagstone of trokair combos with cataclysm.Quote:
Originally Posted by c2232
I don't think you side in RiP vs the same decks. RiP is not that great vs Miracles? (they play snap that's all?)
@Koke_MTG
Cut the deck back to 60 cards. To me that means removing 1 Phyrexian Revoker and 1 Mirran Crusader.
I don't see why you're running Flagstones - even 1 is too many for me. Similarly I'd say remove 1 Cavern of Souls - you're asking to be colour screwed with 10 colourless sources. Take out those 4 and add 4 Plains. You could consider a Horizon Canopy.
In your sideboard I would do the following (not sure if it would be considered universal):
- 1 Rest in Peace
- 1 Pithing Needle
+ 2 Enlightened Tutor (which effectively adds to your count of all artifacts/enchantments)
I don't like the Sword in the Board - and would consider something like Veteran Armorer as Dread of Night Protection (or perhaps Honor of the Pure which can be found with the Tutor).
A card I find a beating in the fair matches is Worship - if you want to give it a run.
To anyone who missed it, check out Marius Hausmann's Death & Taxes article on Channel Fireball today: http://www.channelfireball.com/home/...es-deck-guide/
It's really cool to see how much more attention Legacy has gotten on CFB recently.
I find his first list to be a little bit outdated.
Most of the time Vryin's wingmare is used in MW D&T those days (At least in the last successfull lists i've seen on SCG's circuit) and they completely replaced spirit of the labyrinth (That is nearly never ever good) and Brimaz.
One thing I don't like also is the absence of cavern of soul. Saying that it is a target for wasteland is not an argument. Karakas is the actual better target for wasteland. You want to waste my cavern? ok go ahead. I want to be able to bounce thalia :)
On the fact that it's a legacy article on CFB: yeah it's quite cool... I also find it funny that he has put a link leading to SCG website inside a CFB article. I guess CFB doesn't care :)
I don't understand why don't like Flagstones of Trokair. They are fantastic when we resolve a Cataclysm, and they are really good against Emrakul and Massacre decks. Even they are more important in my meta, in which I often can find Pox players. They can help us to filter the deck, avoiding some lands at late game... So the only problem I can find is the increment of Blood Moon decks to fight Shardless, Loam and Lands decks. This is the only reason that stop me to run the full set of Flagstones. But I don't understand people who play only a singleton, what is the reason for that? I think that this is like Vryn Wingmare: we have to bet for this plan or not. It is absourd for me to play only a singleton.
You don't want a starting hand with more than 1 flagstone of trokair. because the second FoT you play feels like playing a land that comes into play tapped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koke_MTG
Tyler, under the current rules, you do not suffer the "tapped" issue anymore. You tap the first for mana, then you play the second. Just sacrifice the tapped one and you won't feel a thing. There are some corner cases in which it makes a difference, but even combined these corner cases have not even been a blip on my radar.
Flagstones are good for exactly the reasons Koke says. Unfortunately so are a lot of other lands, and you truly do not want to fall below the critical number of Plains for Blood Moon reasons.
I appreciate Mr. Hausmann stating that there is no best build. We can't even agree on the best color(s). Heck, I can't even agree with myself on this issue. This is the nature of playing reactive cards.
Ahah you're right. you can sacrifice the first one...Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
However, in the salvation thread, i'm pretty sure people had another argument for not playing flagstones (even 1).
I don't have the courage to search the whole thread for that :)
I tried a 4-Flagstones build for a while when I was on Mono-W, and I did win a few games off being able to play around Massacre, but overall barely noticed the difference. I don't remember ever losing a game on account of them. Even w/ a fairly greedy mono-w manabase, the chance that you won't have a plains when you need one is pretty low. And Blood Moon decks are not super popular or particularly good against D+T. Whereas we do see Massacre quite a bit.
I don't think the upside from deck thinning or the Cataclysm bonus is really that high either though. Cataclysm should usually win on its own anyway. I think once I was once upkeep waste-your-flagstone'd, which is a cute play to keep you off the mana for a turn, but obviously not something anyone wants to do regularly.
I do not hate this.... what matchups do you bring it in for? and how has it worked for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by llamaza
Which mono W or R/W version do u think its powerful? Which one would u play?
I vote for mono white.
It does the things you wanna do with Death&Taxes. With the red splash you often miss the aim of the deck.
While MonoW certainly has its appeal, I' prefer Imperial Taxes in the current meta. The complete lack of library manipulation aside from SFM really hurts MonoW imho.Quote:
Originally Posted by fluuu
RE: Flagstones
It depends on the build and sideboard. If you run Cataclysm or Armageddon and you are WW, multiple Flagstones of Trokair are quite good. I don't think I would run 4, but I could run 2 comfortably. The only time it is not excellent is against Bloodmoon decks, and even then, 2 are not likely to hurt you. It will be played at the same time as Rest in Peace in some games because you will want RiP against Tarmogoyf decks, and a deck like RUG definitely uses Wasteland, so I would really never go to 4.
RE: WW vs. Wr vs. Wg
First, it is to some degree a meta call. For example, they all have different strengths against Miracles, though I think Wr is better if Miracles is not running Monastery Mentor. Imperial Recruiter is much less good when they go wide and I don't think I want to bring in Sudden Demise in that match. Wg is very strong thanks to maindeck Sylvan Library, and Qasali Pridemage + Choke + Gaddock Teeg + Krosan Grip. On the other hand, multiple +1 tax effects with a lot of flyers and maybe some reconsideration of Spirit of the Labyrinth is overdue (Spirit is also a very strong maindeck card against Elves.)
I think it depends on your playstyle, what you are comfortable with and how you view optimal play. I'm a bit more of a grindy, cautious, lock-down kind of player. I'm happy waiting a long time to win, just to grind out minor advantages, so I like the slower WW builds and Wr.
I'm thrilled to see so many people championing the different builds, coming up with new ideas, and doing well at big tournaments. Legacy is very dynamic right now, which also makes it harder on us because we can't be the best deck against everything when there is so much to fight through.
Any match that I think will be a grind and I'm likely to be able to land it through potential countermagic. I often look at it and think it's worth bringing in - but sometimes can't afford the cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by c2232
Some examples where I'd bring it in - the Mirror, Maverick, Merfolk, any Depths/Stage combo, Dredge etc
Played this deck for the first time last night. It was super fun and I regret not playing it before. How are you guys finding revoker right now? It felt somewhat underwhelming in my meta at least, just curious on what you guys think of it right now
As a public fan of Phyrexian Revoker, I will say that it usually is really good coinciding with the time in wich Delver decks are worse posicioned in the meta. Right now, the best Delver deck is Grixis Delver, and Revoker is not useless in this matchup because of the importance of DRS as a mana dork early in the game. Out of Delver decks, between the rest of tier decks, I do not find a matchup in wich Revoker is bad: against Miracles is one of our best cards at least first game, against Elves and Storm is, after StP/Jitte and Thalia respectively, our best tool to beat them without sideboard, and it is always good to stop planeswalkers and DRS vs Shardless BUG or dangerous equipments vs Stoneblade decks...Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Unfortunately, there is no the amount of Sneak & Show we expected with the DTT ban, but I think that we still should run the full set of them at least in the mono-white version. As a mana denial deck, I do not like watch how my oponent is going to have 3 mana in his turn 2 (with DRS, Noble Hierarch or the omnipresent Mox Diamond) so I usually want to have one Revoker in my hand, I feel safer.
Revoker is absurd. Shuts off important creatures, planeswalkers, equipment, wipes like Deed and EE, Top, LED... So many uses. There are very few matchups where I think he's poor. I run 3 in Bloody Taxes, and I'm trying to find room for the 4th.
I know what Revoker does and why it's good. I'm the only person pretty much who played the card in deadguy ale. I'm just curious how you're finding it in the current meta.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koke_MTG
Well I think you have your answer, at least from these two players. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Violence
The only DtB that Revoker isn't good vs is RUG Delver, which is already one of our best matchups. Shutting off DRS is so important vs any deck playing the dude - and it's also the key hatebear vs Elves, Miracles, the mirror. When it's bad it feels like you're playing a limited card, but the % of matchups where it's bad in this meta probably isn't much different from the % of matchups where Thalia is bad.
Speaking of Thalia-is-bad matchups - for the mirror I *always* side out my Thalias before anything else. But I often encounter DnT players who still have them in g2/g3. Does anyone not side them out? It always seemed pretty obvious to me that you risk having a dead card if your opponent has one of their many Karakases and it's hard to predict which player is gonna be 'more taxed' by the effect before the game.
The thing is, the matchups where the opponent plays DRS you won't be able to keep them in check postboard with Revoker, because of all the sweepers they will run against you. Revoker is suboptimal against GB based decks because it just gives the element of blowout to your opponent since they can kill the Revoker anytime they want. And that's why I side out Revoker against BUG Delver and Shardless, aside from obvious useless matchups like RUG.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Revoker is awesome in game 1 where people don't run that many efficient answers to the guy, but postboard its utility diminishes exponentially.
Thalia's first strike is huge in the mirror, as it is against other creature based matchups like Goblins and Merfolk. Jitte on Thalia is one of the best plays you can make in the mirror, as long as they don't have active Karakas. And you do run 4 Wastelands to keep them in check. So I usually take 2-3 and leave 1-2, as there are other things to cut and not that many things to bring in.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
What do you consider other things to cut? The R/W list has the Maguses, but pretty much every core card in the Mono-W list has utility in the mirror.
The Batterskull should be the first thing to cut, then Brimaz/Mindcensor/SotL if you run them in the maindeck, and then comes Thalia. But first you should consider what to actually bring in. Disenchant for sure, C. Judgment is a maybe and should be slightly easier to cast with the opponent siding out their Thalias, Containment Priest, Cataclysm if you're on the draw, and WLL if you have them. You will rarely have more than 4 sideboard cards to bring in against the mirror so it's rare to side out all the Thalias.
Does anyone else side out their Batterskulls? Sure it's the 3rd most relevant equipment, but in my experience these games are either over immediately (someone gets manascrewed, someone gets a jitte online) or, more often, go very long / get super boardstalled. For those games you want something to fetch with your late game Sfms, and you don't want a board state where they have their Skull and you don't have yours. And the germ getting flickerwisp'd or whatever isn't even that big a deal - usually in those games you'll have the mana to be hooking it onto things.
I have been playing creature-heavy SBs w/ the RW build splash, so I'm generally not short on things to bring in.