[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Played some UBw Landstill recently, the deck has been fun. Began with a bye today but ended up 3-0 beating UR Delver and Esper Vial. Same list as previous UBw except Drown #3 and 4 slots went from Tale's End and Coll Brutality to 2x Prismatic Ending. The lack of Timeless and Spikefield is pretty annoying in these colors, but the flip side is better lifegain (including Kaya), Drown, and better PW killers.

Game 1 vs Delver they got out ahead with DRC and Ragavan, attacked me down to 5 and lost by casting my Standstill. Teferi still in play and cycling Shark as 4/4 pretty much ended the game as they were forced to crack Standstill and pass into my Kaya (lifegain unbeatable as they already lost 2 Bolts getting me to 5). Game 2 they mulled to 5 looking for lands, lost their board and scooped to Standstill.

Game 1 vs Esper Vial they had the Vial and played into wrath heavily, but I couldn't find it. Game 2 they mulled to 5 and lost to CTP beatdown; also Ashiok confirmed heavy monarch all-in (Courts and Jailer). Game 3 they couldn't keep up in the monarch subgame they introduced and had a lot of 1/1 spirits from their 2x Courts - Plague Engi put a stop to this nonsense, and also took out a random Soulherder.

There is a misconception in legacy where people misidentify midrange decks as "control." While monarch tactics are very good against midrange [e.g. the Uro decks], they run into trouble when anti-midrange cards are brought in against real control.

Went 2-1 tonight. Narrowly lost to Burn in game 3, and won vs DnT and Food Chain Muxus. Event had 8 decks, others included Esper Mentor and BUG Stiflenought; unsure what last 2 decks were.

List felt great in all the games, even vs Burn (lots of maindeck lifegain). Just drew too many lands vs a Vortex I needed to knock out first in game 3. Only felt need to board 2 cards (EE in and Nihil Spellbomb to deny spell mastery).

Definitely got a free win off Muxus when colored mana screw met with 4-land reveal off Ringleader into a miss-6 Muxus. Really liked having access to 2x SB Unmoored Ego to name Muxus with, though that play didn't come up.

Games vs DnT were all fun, even on my mull to 5. Game 1 I almost decked but managed to fire the Kaya cannon for like 30. In game 3 Kaya, Teferi and interaction kept the ground clear until Plague Engi on human stranded 3x 1-toughness humans in hand [Esper Sentinel build].

Hi dudes
Is there a discord for landstill?

Greedings

https://twitter.com/Marshal38117189/...268727304?s=20

This deck looks pretty cool but am going to try some modification to it.
(1 obvious flaw with the list in the picture is 1 Plateau means the Deltas should be Tarns but thats not what I am thinking about).

First change is to alter the manabase because I think it's a bit too dual-heavy, change to the more 'stock' uwr manabase like this:
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Strand
4 Vista
2 Tarn
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic

Then after my previous experience playing a deck with 4x Typhoons I think maybe 4x Typhoons + 3x Dragons is a little bit too much value/clunk, plus the Plateau disappeared with the manabase change so there are fewer Plainscycle targets, so I think I want to cut the Dragons down to 2.

I also feel like 3 Narset is too many so cut that down to 2.

I think those 2 maindeck slots I want to be 1 Sevinne's Rec and 1 Dressdown. Sevinne's Rec feels like a good grind option with the Narset/Tef pairing, can get Standstill back, etc. 1 Dressdown helps to cover some strategies that the deck is a bit weak to, opens some SB space, and the utility of having 1 copy seems high because you can bounce it with Tef and bring it back with Sevinnes etc.

So the maindeck is like this:

5 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Strand
4 Vista
2 Tarn
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Prismatic Ending
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
2 Force of Negation
2 Narset, Parter of Veils
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
2 Supreme Verdict

2 Timeless Dragon
4 Shark Typhoon
1 Sevinne's Reclamation
1 Dress Down

For the sideboard I think I still like Etutor package for Jeskai so something like:
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Rest In Peace
1 Canonist (I had autopilot for playing Deafening Silence in this slot but then I remembered I'm not playing Kaheera anymore)
1 Blood Moon
1 Energy Flux
1 Court of Grace
3 Pyroblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Humility
2 Dress Down
1 Surgical

Overall I think the deck looks very good vs fair blue (Delver or Jeskai/Bant/4C etc). Lands matchup seems hard, Standstill already lines up badly vs Field/Depths and now they can kill moon with Boseiju. Possibly sb should switch to magus of the moon / ruination

Anyway will try it at fnm this week I think

X+2 rule violation, deck needs another Tundra. Moreover you are trying to cast Verdict and would be totally unable to do so vs 1x Port and one Wasteland activation.

White mana issues magnified by lack of key effect: Karakas. Key effect needed vs Grisel, Emry/Sai, Progenitus (after Dress Down), Thalia.

Island #5 <<< Otawara.

Non-Standstill CA lacking, need 2x SCM. Teferi and Narset are not able to drown an opponent in CA. Narset slots to a PW which can imitate Jayemdae Tome's CA.

Ways to deal with Saga: 0x.

Cut the Ponders and fix the above problems. Cantripping doesn't matter if you can't draw into the needed effect.

Can see lack of W sources being a potential concern regarding verdict, will pay attention to that. Not sure how sensible "X+2" rule is, after you have all 3 plains from your deck surely you are at a point where casting 5/5 is preferable to getting another plains most of the time

Otawara/Karakas are fine suggestions, I guess cut 1 island for otawara is ok

If you want a PW that can repeatedly draw cards instead of narset which do you want to play? Jtms? Teferi Hero? Or something weird like Dovin Arbiter / Jace Beleren? Seems possibly unnecessary and/or just worse than Narset

SCM seems an okay card but idk if it changes things that much

Outs to saga is 1 ddown main and more in the board. Idk if it's realistic to expect a deck with 4x maindeck standstill to have a good matchup Vs saga G1 anyway so I'm fine with having limited options Vs it

I don't think your obsession with cutting ponder makes sense in decks not playing stifle

The issue with Narset is that you need to have a second card like Court of Grace to cover long-term CA. Then you have this janky dies to Bolt/Pyroblast effect to cover the possibility that the opponent becomes the monarch.

As far as Saga goes, you are not at all covered by Dress Down. They could make zero constructs and you are still so screwed by Saga tutor Needle name Shark'nado if you deployed a Standstill, or are trying to deploy a Standstill without having Ending in hand at that exact moment.

^scenarios like this or doing things like trying to play Replenish after the printing of Endurance are avoidable catastrophes. If you're walking into scenarios like this, you need to be changing Standstill to Iteration.

I tested this a bit in our gauntlet before some recent format changes. (My pet UW deck was not performing well in the meta, so it was fun to play Landstill again)

It was a blast to play. Is the Saga package too durdly?

UWr SagaStill


//Lands: 24
4 Flooded Strand
3 Prismatic Vista
4 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Mountain
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Raugrin Triome
1 Karakas
3 Urza's Saga
1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
1 Spikefield Hazard

//Spells: 19
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Prismatic Ending
2 Sevinne's Reclamation
1 Force of Negation
1 Supreme Verdict

//Enchantments: 7
4 Standstill
1 Search for Azcanta
2 Shark Typhoon

//Creatures: 4
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Timeless Dragon

//Planeswalker: 3
3 Teferi, Time Raveler

//Artifacts: 3
1 Expedition Map
1 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Soul-Guide Lantern

//Sideboard: 15
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Force of Negation
1 By Force
1 Alpine Moon
1 Serenity
1 Pyroclasm
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wasteland
1 Lotus Field
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage


There's a lot of late game synergy & durdle shenanigans with Hall + Saga/Sharks/Standstill, or Sevinne + T3feri/Standstill/Saga/Snappy, or with Saga & Map toolboxes.

Azcanta filtering plays well with the other GY stuff, then becomes a great CA engine late.

To make room for Saga, I couldn't afford maindeck Wasteland, so it does lack ways to interact with enemy Saga beyond trying to out-Saga them. SB has Alpine Moon, Wasteland and Needle. On the plus side, it is not easy for opponent to shut much down with a single Saga-> Needle. Too many different engines and wincons.

Is Spikefield Hazard still playable/good after Ragabanned? What about the Triome + Plateau (for Dragon) vs playing more basics and Tundra?

I don't miss Ponder. When Standstill gets cracked, I want to draw cheap instant interaction (FoW, Brainstorm, FoN, StP, Snapcaster, REB, Surgical, Spikefield, cycling) not sorcery cantrips. With 24 lands I don't need Ponder to dig for lands. Instead of Ponder I get to run more non-spell actions through Standstill:
-cycle Shark
-cycle Dragon & Eternalize
-Saga constructs
-Saga -> Retrofitter -> token spam
-Saga -> Lantern -> draw
-Heliod -> loop Saga or Shark
-Azcanta flip & dig
-3feri bounce

I think the biggest question with that list whether or not Saga is worth it. There is always the issue with Saga being suicidal, but the real cost is the 6 slots it's costing you. You're down 1x Verdict, 1x Timeless, 1x FoN, and you don't have a value engine PW (Teferi is only going to draw 1 per 4 turns). You're losing the ability to stabilize & the ability to get ahead after you've stabilized.
You're also missing Dress Down...and while that isn't a particularly good play vs DDFT's Daze playset, it's about as good as it's going to get. [If they ban Daze, it becomes much more reliable]

In terms of inefficient slots, the second Sevinne's should live in the SB and the maindeck slot should go to Burning Wish. We're always interested in going up on 2cmc plays; particularly ones we don't care about resolving (if they FoW, you just get it back with SCM later).

As far as the Saga vs SB goes, the only Saga-based card I really like in there is the Lotus Field (easy to find with Saga -> Map) juke to ignore Choke and Port. It also let's you ramp up the power if you want to, with cards you don't have to risk drawing if B Wish is in the main. Boiling Seas and Cataclysm seem fine if you've navigated the game into a Lotus Field.
Needle isn't really playable vs Ending decks, and even if you Needle name Saga you still have issues if they tutor up Retro. Cage doesn't stop you from getting dino-bashed, and it's unreliable vs Uro b/c of Ending.

Spikefield is still playable. Delver and DRC are both coming down as 1/1s, and exile starves them of delirium later. There is also Uro which goes straight to exile after first cast's sacrifice trigger. Remember also that an enemy Teferi player will likely respond to eteralized Timeless with playing Teferi & downtick, which conveniently puts Teferi on 1 loyalty. All of this on a card you can play as a land drop.
For all the issues UWr/UWR Standstill/Landstill has, the ability to support the third Dragon and include Spikefield remain the biggest unique payoffs: not ever getting mana screwed while both also have text while Standstill is in play.

We've been working at eliminating the mana variance for the better part of 20 years, so I don't like re-injecting it with Saga on principle. It also takes very few games with Daze picking up Tundra to realize that lost land drop strats don't end particularly well. There is however a lot of asymmetric shenanigans you can unlock with the Saga find Map -> Map find Lotus -> Burning Wish pathway. If we're adding Saga's variance, we need to see concomitant rise in power.
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If I'm playing a list like yours, I'm cutting Saga #3, Teferi #3, Azcanta, Retro, Ending #3, and then moving stuff around.

Land (22 + 1)
4x Strand
4x Vista
3x Island
2x Plains
1x Mountain
2x Tundra
1x Plateau (or Triome, but prefer Plateau)
2x Saga
1x Karakas
1x Heliod
1x Lotus Field
1x Spikefield

Creatures (5)
3x Timeless
2x SCM

Spells (20)
4x FoW
4x BS
4x Plow
2x B Wish
2x Ending
2x FoN
1x Sevinne's
1x Verdict

Artifact/Enchant (8)
1x Map
1x yard hate*
4x Standstill
2x Shark'nado

PW (4)
2x Teferi
2x something**

SB:
3x REB effects
1x By Force
1x Verdict
1x Sevinne's
1x Ending (or CJ)
1x flex (probably Cataclysm)
1x Replenish or Humility
1x Clasm
1x Canonist
2x Alpine Moon (or split with E Tutor)
2x Surgical (or split with a Soul-Guide)

*would rather draw cards while hating their GY. Given Sevinne's focus, want to use own GY, and want for ongoing GY challenge I would play Phyrexian Furnace or Relic.
**I guess Nahiri Harbinger is still the best vs Pyroblast, even though she can't exile Kaldra... I at least like that you can't get got by Hullbreacher or Narset as the [+2] is a "may." There are worse things to blitz out than SCM or Dragon.

Still have the Dress Down problem vs slots. Almost at the point of cut Heliod, add 2x Dress Down and play 61.

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The issue with Narset is that you need to have a second card like Court of Grace to cover long-term CA. Then you have this janky dies to Bolt/Pyroblast effect to cover the possibility that the opponent becomes the monarch.

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1. I'm not at all convinced that having some kind of phyrexian arena effect is totally necessary, although I agree it's a reasonable suggestion, and 2. you still haven't suggested what card should provide that effect even though I specifically prompted you for this. Like are you suggesting I play maindeck court of grace? Or something else?

The threat of flash shark also makes casting monarch pretty awkward for the opponent I think. Narset is a good card, it's not just in the deck to shut down the opponent's monarch emblem.

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As far as Saga goes, you are not at all covered by Dress Down. They could make zero constructs and you are still so screwed by Saga tutor Needle name Shark'nado if you deployed a Standstill, or are trying to deploy a Standstill without having Ending in hand at that exact moment.

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If I have standstill in play and opp plays a saga, then the only realistic options to deal with it without giving my opponent 3 cards is something like boseiju their saga or wasteland their saga, and including those cards skews the construction of the deck way too much. In this situation there's no reason to consider the hypothetical of "even if the opponent doesn't make constructs" because why would they not? In most situations a dragon/shark token won't be able to race construct + shadowspear or construct + foundry, so I accept that my G1 vs saga is not very good, try not to cast SS vs them g1 and try to config the deck so that it can successfully play G2 and G3 while boarding standstills out OR by keeping them in and boarding into some moon or whatever

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^scenarios like this or doing things like trying to play Replenish after the printing of Endurance are avoidable catastrophes. If you're walking into scenarios like this, you need to be changing Standstill to Iteration

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Avoidable how? You haven't proposed any solution...
I 100% agree that "if standstill is backfiring against the meta too high % of the time then you should probably play EI instead" but where did anyone mention replenish?

Can you please figure out how to have a conversation like a normal human

Let's make this simple for you @kombatkiwi:
Saga could literally say nothing about making constructs at all, anywhere on the card. You'd still be screwed if you cast Standstill and they went Saga tutor Needle name Shark.

That is a massive deckbuilding error. It's equal to things like playing 4x Replenish main in a Standstill deck after Endurance was printed. You avoid this by not killing yourself at the point of deckbuilding, because you already know how you're getting blown out - and there ain't a damn thing you can draw to change any of this no matter how much you Ponder.

On Jayemdae Tome imitators: JTMS, Teferi 5cmc both have repeatable card draw. They also have the classic problem of dying to Pyroblast combined with not having a card to recur them; which is a structural deficit UWr Standstill decks cannot overcome with current card pool.

You have railroaded yourself into a deck without a real backup plan. If they effortlessly cut your Standstill angle, you have a Narset that can activate for a max of 2 cards, and a Teferi than can draw 1 card every 4 turns...and you are going to be stuck on these walkers after giving them 3 cards...and then what? You board out Standstill vs Saga decks and have one of the most anemic CA suites in legacy? What's the point of Pondering and stabilizing if you can't turn the corner?

The only way your style of deck works is b/c people are playing MindTwister (two banned cards rolled into one thanks to Narset passive + Day's). What they're doing with terrible CA + no ultimate PWs isn't real without banned effects. Never confuse Narset + Teferi Pw suite as being independently viable.

Again I agree with you that standstill matches up badly vs Saga and that I acknowledge that is a weakness with the way that the maindeck is configured

My answer is "I am okay with this problem G1 because I think standstill is a good pick vs the rest of the meta and I can fix the issue in the bad matchups after sideboarding"

Your answer is "just build your deck better 4head" -------> but how?

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Avoidable how? You haven't proposed any solution...

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Can you please figure out how to have a conversation like a normal human

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- Do you want to splash for Boseiju to kill my opp saga through a standstill
- Do you want to play wasteland to kill opp saga through a standstill
- Do you want to play maindeck alpine moon or some shit
- Do you want to play maindeck sagas in the list to battle straight up vs opposing saga
- Do you think the deck is actually unfixable and you're just being vague/annoying

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On Jayemdae Tome imitators: JTMS, Teferi 5cmc both have repeatable card draw. They also have the classic problem of dying to Pyroblast combined with not having a card to recur them; which is a structural deficit UWr Standstill decks cannot overcome with current card pool.

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Huh, it's almost like I also didn't put those cards in my deck for some deliberate reason. Perhaps you could suggest what you would do instead?

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The only way your style of deck works is b/c people are playing MindTwister (two banned cards rolled into one thanks to Narset passive + Day's). What they're doing with terrible CA + no ultimate PWs isn't real without banned effects. Never confuse Narset + Teferi Pw suite as being independently viable.

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I think there is probably more than a grain of truth to this (and I give you credit for managing to describe things in a relatively straightforward way for once) but again WHAT WOULD YOU DO INSTEAD??

Like from this shell, what would your deck look like:

Minimum 20 lands, 0 saga

4 Plow
4 Ending
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder (hard for you to accept I know, just consider it as a mental exercise in suboptimal deckbuilding)
4 Standstill
4 Force
2 FON
0 Burning Wish

+14 blanks for you to fill in

Stepping in to translate....

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Again I agree with you that standstill matches up badly vs Saga and that I acknowledge that is a weakness with the way that the maindeck is configured

My answer is "I am okay with this problem G1 because I think standstill is a good pick vs the rest of the meta and I can fix the issue in the bad matchups after sideboarding"

Your answer is "just build your deck better 4head" -------> but how?

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I think what Fox is saying is that by playing 4x Shark Typhoon (instead of 2 Shark 2 other wincon) and no lategame PW engines (Jace TMS, Big Teferi), you're losing even harder to lines like Saga -> Needle on Shark Typhoon, when Saga is already bad for you. You could mitigate that by playing fewer Sharks and diversifying threats. In general, 4 Shark seems excessive now with Timeless Dragons.

In situations like that, cards like Ponder and Narset can only dig deeper, but the rest of the deck has a lack of things worth digging into that would save you. If Shark is shut off, digging into more copies of Shark won't help. Maybe you could avoid that by shaving Narset and 1-2 Sharks for some other engine that can take over the game. Jace dies to REB, but maybe it would still be better? Jace can at least take over a game, while Narset just digs and disrupts a bit.

Fox, what do you think? Jace > Narset?

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

- Do you want to play maindeck sagas in the list to battle straight up vs opposing saga

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That was my attempt, although Fox pointed out vulnerabilities with running Saga. It does take up a lot of space and compromises the mana / land drops.

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Originally Posted by FTW

Stepping in to translate....

I think what Fox is saying is that by playing 4x Shark Typhoon (instead of 2 Shark 2 other wincon) and no lategame PW engines (Jace TMS, Big Teferi), you're losing even harder to lines like Saga -> Needle on Shark Typhoon, when Saga is already bad for you. You could mitigate that by playing fewer Sharks and diversifying threats. In general, 4 Shark seems excessive now with Timeless Dragons.

In situations like that, cards like Ponder and Narset can only dig deeper, but the rest of the deck has a lack of things worth digging into that would save you. If Shark is shut off, digging into more copies of Shark won't help. Maybe you could avoid that by shaving Narset and 1-2 Sharks for some other engine that can take over the game. Jace dies to REB, but maybe it would still be better? Jace can at least take over a game, while Narset just digs and disrupts a bit.

Fox, what do you think? Jace > Narset?

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In the situation where you have no standstill in play and they get needle off saga you can just Prismatic Ending the Needle or bounce it with Teferi. The problem is that it doesn't matter what kind of diversified threat package you play in a situation where you DO have a standstill in play and your opponent plays a saga. If you have Jace in the deck instead of Narset you are still boned there regardless. Fox is acting like the Saga-Under-Standstill problem is some serious yet fixable flaw, but is not really giving any indication of how he would go about addressing it.

I think I would always play 4 Shark before the first Dragon, I'm surprised you suggest to play a split (although I could agree that 6 total threats playable under standstill might be unnecessary / too many)

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That was my attempt, although Fox pointed out vulnerabilities with running Saga. It does take up a lot of space and compromises the mana / land drops.

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I agree with this, and while it might be possible to make it work it's not something I am currently interested in exploring

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

I think I would always play 4 Shark before the first Dragon, I'm surprised you suggest to play a split (although I could agree that 6 total threats playable under standstill might be unnecessary / too many)

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Shark is pretty bad on turn 2-3. Dragon fixes mana so it's never dead. Shark's amazing late game, but wouldn't you rather only see it late than draw too many copies early? That was my rationale for a split instead of 4 copies.

If you commit too much to Shark, like Fox said, it does also open you out to being hated out by Needle.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

The problem is that it doesn't matter what kind of diversified threat package you play in a situation where you DO have a standstill in play and your opponent plays a saga. If you have Jace in the deck instead of Narset you are still boned there regardless.

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Unless you have the PW in play before dropping Standstill. Then having a PW that can control the game could matter.

Or you might be forced to crack your own Standstill to beat their Saga board. If so, a card like Jace can actually dig you out of the hole. With only cards like Narset and Ponder, you're basically never coming back, there's no way to make up the card disadvantage, so you're boned whether you try to disrupt Saga or not.

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Originally Posted by Fox

If I'm playing a list like yours, I'm cutting Saga #3, Teferi #3, Azcanta, Retro, Ending #3, and then moving stuff around.

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I like the Burning Wish package and spending less space on Saga. Is Azcanta really not good enough, even with the other GY interactions?

Is Dress Down that essential to fight Doomsday-Thassa?

What do you think about Jace or Dack Fayden in the PW slot? Is losing to Pyroblast too much? Gideon?

@kombatkiwi
This is what UWr/UWR has going for it: highly uninteractive, low variance mana progression. It's so good that it's actually difficult to lose a game to mana screw - in a deck with no Ponder.
This is the problem: you can't turn that mana into a reliable CA engine, and you can't gain life profitably (so you never escape having to throw blue cards away to counter Bolt).

Now if you add Ponder, you gain nothing you weren't already overloaded on [mana reliability]...which leaves less space to deal with the problem areas. If you add Saga, like @FTW was thinking, you compromise the mana security (and then there are also slot issues).

After all of that, you still have to give up 2 slots to Dress Down for Thassa...and this is kind of okay b/c it wipes constructs, and you just Ending the thing they tutor. The weak point is always going to be Saga finding Needle under Standstill if you're mono-cropping on Shark'nado. So there is a Saga issue you have to solve, and part of it can be having Otawara to bounce your own Standstill, in a deck with 6x Force effects (you pitch the Standstill you just picked up here), and adjusting your gameplan to a different strategy.

We can continue the scenario and credit the opponent with a Saga, and you should have a pretty easy FoW; now it's time for you to attack on a different angle and turn the corner. You probably don't have 6 mana to hardcast Shark. You are not going to get there by cycling some small Sharks after killing their Needle. You have a wrath that will resolve, that's a good thing. Now you need to turn the corner...except your PWs are both unable to do this. Now would you have a shot to turn the corner with a JTMS or 5cmc Teferi? Probably not. What if it was Nahiri? Probably not...but as long as your only counteroffensive plan wasn't just a flaccid Teferi + Narset, there would be an amount of games you could win.

^The key to solving the hostile Saga problem is knowing how to navigate the puzzle:
What happened -> did the tools in your decklist allow you to pivot -> is there a real gameplan after the pivot.

Edit: It's not particularly challenging to target Saga if you have solved the puzzles it creates. You seem to want a quick fix @kombatkiwi, but the answer is that your deck's foundation is flawed. Ponder will not find a card that covers the fact that you've got no comprehensive plan for Saga starting at game 1...and that Ponder is going to reveal more cards that can't help you out of that scenario. You will see Plows and Endings and FoWs and Teferi and Narset alongside your Standstills in your top 3. At best, these can buy time...but that's pointless if you don't have a comprehensive/systematic way to say "no" to Saga in an absolute fashion.
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If you are looking at what the decklist looks like, just read up a few posts where I modified @FTW's list. I don't think Saga is really the answer in a UWr/UWR Standstill/Landstill deck, but I like my chances if I can at least play towards Lotus Field into a Burning Wish into a Cataclysm (all ignoring a Chalice on 1)...but...UWr/UWR still has primary deficits [having nothing to do with Saga] the card pool can't fix.

So when your question is "what UWr/UWR Standstill/Landstill list would be optimal" the final answer is: it's not playable b/c UBw Landstill, UR Dreadstill, and UW Dreadstill all run better win %s b/c they don't suffer from the primary deficits of UWr/UWR. The answer is also that Ponder is the absolute worst card to turn to in UWr/UWR [unless you don't actually want to play the card Standstill, and you want to learn the MindTwister deck before wotc wakes up and bans Echo & probably Day's...which is about as useful in the long run as learning to master Ragavan or Oko or Wrenn or DRS or Breach or Lurrus or DHA or DTT or TC or CounterTop].

The advantage of investing money and time Standstill-based decks is the decades-long stability and high resistance to being affected by FIRE design or power creep. So just scroll back a little in this thread until you find the UBw Landstill list, and add 2x Dress Down. Stop trying to reward UWr Narset/Day's cannons by playing their exact same deck, just worse, with the card Standstill. If you're not up to playing Dreadstill, it's time to tap 1UB and name Narset with Unmoored Ego, it's UBw Landstill time (and yes, you can name Saga too).

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Originally Posted by Fox

The weak point is always going to be Saga finding Needle under Standstill if you're mono-cropping on Shark'nado.

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Opponent just playing a Saga under your standstill is always going to be a problem, I don't understand the hyperfixation on them tutoring needle with it

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So there is a Saga issue you have to solve, and part of it can be having Otawara to bounce your own Standstill, in a deck with 6x Force effects (you pitch the Standstill you just picked up here), and adjusting your gameplan to a different strategy.

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This is a reasonable answer to the question I have been asking but I don't think 1 Otawara is a consistent/reliable enough plan to "solve" the problem.

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We can continue the scenario and credit the opponent with a Saga, and you should have a pretty easy FoW; now it's time for you to attack on a different angle and turn the corner. You probably don't have 6 mana to hardcast Shark. You are not going to get there by cycling some small Sharks after killing their Needle. You have a wrath that will resolve, that's a good thing. Now you need to turn the corner...except your PWs are both unable to do this. Now would you have a shot to turn the corner with a JTMS or 5cmc Teferi? Probably not. What if it was Nahiri? Probably not...but as long as your only counteroffensive plan wasn't just a flaccid Teferi + Narset, there would be an amount of games you could win.

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Ok so I ask you what card would work and the answer is "Not Jace, not Teferi, and not Nahiri". amazing

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Edit: It's not particularly challenging to target Saga if you have solved the puzzles it creates. You seem to want a quick fix @kombatkiwi, but the answer is that your deck's foundation is flawed. Ponder will not find a card that covers the fact that you've got no comprehensive plan for Saga starting at game 1...and that Ponder is going to reveal more cards that can't help you out of that scenario. You will see Plows and Endings and FoWs and Teferi and Narset alongside your Standstills in your top 3. At best, these can buy time...but that's pointless if you don't have a comprehensive/systematic way to say "no" to Saga in an absolute fashion.

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Buy time to hardcast shark? It doesn't even sound unreasonable to me

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If you are looking at what the decklist looks like, just read up a few posts where I modified @FTW's list. I don't think Saga is really the answer in a UWr/UWR Standstill/Landstill deck, but I like my chances if I can at least play towards Lotus Field into a Burning Wish into a Cataclysm (all ignoring a Chalice on 1)...but...UWr/UWR still has primary deficits [having nothing to do with Saga] the card pool can't fix.

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Ok but by referring me to that list you are ignoring the 0 Saga 0 Burning Wish stipulation. You're never going to bring anyone on board with "play towards lotus field into burning wish into cataclysm"

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So when your question is "what UWr/UWR Standstill/Landstill list would be optimal" the final answer is: it's not playable b/c UBw Landstill, UR Dreadstill, and UW Dreadstill all run better win %s b/c they don't suffer from the primary deficits of UWr/UWR. The answer is also that Ponder is the absolute worst card to turn to in UWr/UWR [unless you don't actually want to play the card Standstill, and you want to learn the MindTwister deck before wotc wakes up and bans Echo & probably Day's...which is about as useful in the long run as learning to master Ragavan or Oko or Wrenn or DRS or Breach or Lurrus or DHA or DTT or TC or CounterTop].

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Just give me your ubw list then, most recent one is post 5408 in this thread, many of the points you make in that post seem to need re-examining post MH2 (not only adding 2 dressdown but also considering the fact that prismatic ending exists). Like if you think it's important to play Kaya over Narset (I don't even think this is a silly idea) you can just take a list like what I posted and switch the red mana for black. Playing Deluge and Dead of Winter in Murktide format seems super loose. Dropping Ending/Plow and playing Innocent Blood and Bloochief's Thirst just to support Drown 2x seems pretty silly. I'm not married to Jeskai but what is the core part of the esper deck's identity that you can't replicate in Jeskai? Kaya, Cling to Dust and Cranial Extraction?

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The advantage of investing money and time Standstill-based decks is the decades-long stability and high resistance to being affected by FIRE design or power creep. So just scroll back a little in this thread until you find the UBw Landstill list, and add 2x Dress Down. Stop trying to reward UWr Narset/Day's cannons by playing their exact same deck, just worse, with the card Standstill. If you're not up to playing Dreadstill, it's time to tap 1UB and name Narset with Unmoored Ego, it's UBw Landstill time (and yes, you can name Saga too).

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I don't think it's the same deck but worse, taking the good Jeskai cards and playing a Standstill package over the Hull/Day would appear to improve the delver matchup because you don't have:
1) a 3 mana dude that gets bolted
2) a 3 mana sorcery 'draw7' that you don't even really want to cast unless you have the other half of the A+B

Is this free? No, because there are matchups where standstill the card is bad. But due to the high% of delver in the meta it seems like a reasonable decision. Again if you think there is some particular black card(s) that are really important to pair with standstill then I think an Esper deck can be easily justifiable. What I think is a big(ger) leap is straying from the core of Ponder/Brainstorm/Force/Force/Plow/Ending

Tested out Fox's modified UWR. 4-0.


//Lands: 23
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Karakas
1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
1 Lotus Field
2 Urza's Saga
1 Spikefield Hazard

//Spells: 20
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Prismatic Ending
2 Burning Wish
2 Force of Negation
1 Sevinne's Reclamation
1 Supreme Verdict

//Enchantments: 6
4 Standstill
2 Shark Typhoon

//Creatures: 5
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Timeless Dragon

//Planeswalkers: 4
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Artifacts: 2
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
1 Expedition Map

//Sideboard: 15
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 By Force
1 Pyroclasm
1 Cataclysm
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Prismatic Ending
1 Sevinne's Reclamation
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Alpine Moon
1 Humility
1 Ethersworn Canonist


GW Depths (2-0)
G1 I got lucky that they couldn't make a 2nd Marit Lage fast enough, still had to Wish for Verdict to stay alive.
G2 Humility shut down 1st Marit Lage (killed by Spikefield before they found a disenchant!). After Surgical on Stage, it was easy to pull ahead.

UR Delver (2-0)
Walkers died to Pyroblast and Bolts, but Saga & Sharks eventually got there. Lotus Field let me go greedy early. I embarrassed Murktides with Soul-Guide Lantern and Teferi bounce.

8cast (2-0)
Had to blow all my resources to keep threats off the board, but then came back from nowhere with Standstill -> Heliod -> return Standstill -> return Saga -> return Standstill -> return Saga -> etc
Did something similar in G2 with multiple Sharks

Storm Brew... lol (2-1)
G1 First loss! Wrecked by Defense Grid + Thoughtseize -> Infernal Tutor -> Peer -> Tendrils x 18 on turn 3
G2 slammed T2 Standstill, T3 cycle Dragon, T4 Dragon forcing them to play into Standstill quickly, and I drew enough counters.
G3 slammed T2 Standstill into Saga. Drew enough counters in time.

The deck ran smoothly. Losing a land drop to Saga isn't great, but I could usually sequence it to avoid manascrew and optimize mana usage (21 non-Saga lands + 3 Timeless).

I liked Jace, even though it died once to Pyroblast. Nahiri was harder for opponents to remove, but it did almost nothing. Not impressed.

A significant number of wins came from Saga (or Saga + Shark). The power level is high, perhaps enough to reward the variance. I missed Retrofitter, which allowed even bigger snowballs.
Saga -> 2 constructs -> Map -> Heliod -> Saga again -> more constructs -> Saga again -> more constructs
Saga -> 2 constructs -> Retrofitter -> Servos (making Constructs bigger)
Saga -> 2 constructs -> (opponent cracks Standstill) -> flashback Sevinne for Saga & Standstill -> constructs

Most of that is done without casting spells. Can be done with Standstill, while keeping hand loaded with interaction. The big thing is that you're not stuck on 1/1 dorks. There are lines to churn out more bodies and grow the constructs. They can chump block, keep off attackers, or go beatdown. Compared to the old Landstill with Factories, I found the Saga plan a lot more explosive and versatile. Saga could be hated out, but if they're boarding into Saga hate vs Landstill, they're still wide open to other lines of attack.

Lotus Field was strong in some matches, letting me be greedy vs Wasteland decks. It was a terrible draw early though. It also made midgame sequencing difficult, encouraging main phase tap outs and having to carefully plan which turn to go all-in on Lotus Field. I have mixed feelings about this card. I was never in a position where it made sense to go Lotus Field -> Burning Wish -> Cataclysm, because I could usually profit from keeping more lands out. Maybe it would come up in other game states when far behind.

I didn't get to abuse the Burning Wish package much, usually getting Sevinne's, but I could see how you'd need it to bail out of certain board states. That flexibility seems strong, especially when it can just grab Sevinne's or PEnding the rest of the time.

I still like Teferi. It can't pull you ahead in cards, but I missed having the Standstill+3feri lock as often. I relied heavily on Standstill to pull ahead. But that wasn't hard with Sevinne's and Heliod. In a couple games I made 4-6 Standstills.

Hi guys I would like to know if there was a Landstill discord ?

@FTW nice work on the 4-0. Just reading your report you're getting use out of the tools. The whole reason for B Wish is that there really isn't a better way to efficiently use 2 mana, and that's the mana value mainly being targeted in the hunt for playables. You waffle a little bit on different effects. I would keep the Lotus in; it's one slot and it shuts down Wasteland, Port, and allows the basically free option to cheese with Cataclysm.
On Retro, the card is just so awful vs Ending; at some point you have to say "I'm done losing a land and getting my constructs wiped by Dress Down into Ending the Retro" - at some point you have to be able to recover velocity.

Nahiri was really hurt by Prismatic Ending soft-banning Klothys from the format. Klothys was a diversity killer, mono-cropping decks onto itself as the payoff/top-end, generating a loses to Nahiri meta. It's also been harder to justify slots on Yidaro or a SB 13/13 Emmy for Nahiri ult. Unfortunately, Wandering Emporer was a flop, the card needed to read:
[+1] dude gets +1 power & lifelink until next turn.
[-1] dude
[-2] kill dude or exile kaldra + draw a card
Just kinda pointless to use blue PWs [outside Sevinne's range] for value right now...like I'd even play Emporer if it had that design above without flash.
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@kombatkiwi Saga should not be a Saga surprise after an opponent takes their first turn as they should open with things like Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, Tomb, artifact land, Painter staples, etc. Against these, you should know not to play a Standstill on 2, and have a deck that wipes constructs [Verdict, Dress Down], deals with the tutor target [Ending, Kaya 3cmc if UBw], and has PWs/value pieces that take over the game (until hardcast Shark comes online).
If someone is playing slow, stealthy Saga they can't outpace Otawara bouncing your own Standstill. Having the Otawara isn't a reliable plan, but it's at least something for these corner cases.

Now there's all kinds of ways Saga games can go, but you absolutely must not be submitting a list that gets massacred by something so simple as Saga -> Needle quad laser Shark'nado. This is horrifically bad to have 8 cards (Standstill and Shark) clogging up hands. Regardless of what deck you play in legacy, avoid 8-dead-carding yourself. You have to set the bar higher for a Saga user to one-shot you with dead card variance - we do not yolo with 4x Sharks. Add different card names, e.g. Timeless, Otawara, Saga, etc.

On the recursive, or non-blue, payoff permanent for UWr, it doesn't exist at this time. This plus no playable lifegain is the problem with UWr. We are in a holding pattern. We know exactly what the card needs to do. We will identify it the second it is spoiled and buy it before modern catches on ruins the price. But yes, this is why despite the amazing mana of UWr, it's the least competitive of the serious Standstill-using decks.

On UBw Landstill, got zero problems gaining tons of life. Have lost 1 match to Murktide, and the only reason is that I didn't pay 13 for Deluge, which would have won. Murktide existing has vastly improved Standstill's meta position, b/c Standstill is built to not die to Goyf. You best believe I will Deluge with impunity vs Bolt-Delver on the back of Cling, Kaya, and Rider + kill spells that put dudes in the Cling zone. DRC is also a joke when it comes to pressuring life total vs UBw; nothing makes me happier than obliterating Daze with land drops at the low low cost of 1 life per turn.

Saga is certainly an annoyance for UBw, but it plays Wasteland and it's not hard to change Ending to March (we still have PW kill spells). So again it's just a question of what 2 things get cut for the 2x Dress Down. MH2 has failed to generate changes more significant than this. Main thing this deck was waiting on was the inevitable Ragavan ban. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3736016#online

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Originally Posted by Fox

On Retro, the card is just so awful vs Ending; at some point you have to say "I'm done losing a land and getting my constructs wiped by Dress Down into Ending the Retro" - at some point you have to be able to recover velocity.

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What if I just board it out / don't tutor it vs Bant midrange or UW Dreadstill, but use it against other decks? The majority of Legacy decks don't run the combo of Dress Down + Prismatic Ending. If you see an opponent on that deck, it's easy to pivot to Map to avoid the land loss. There are other matchups where Saga into Retrofitter is strong at grinding out uncounterable bodies that overwhelm their spot removal. Just the existence of it in the deck forces them to play into Standstill quickly, especially a T2 Standstill. Otherwise there's less pressure on them to play into Standstill (takes a while for Shark or Dragon beatdown). That's the biggest benefit I found. I could jam Standstills aggressively because Saga forces action, even moreso than Factory used to.

I think the vulnerability you're talking about lies in decks that lean too heavily on 4x Saga with Retrofitter as the primary target (then Shadowspear or Needle). That's not happening here. If opponent concentrates all their resources into shutting down Saga + Retrofitter, that's such a small part of this deck's game plan. You can pivot around it, then board out Retrofitter.

A trick I used 1 game is to sacrifice Saga to Lotus Field after making 1 Construct, so you don't actually go down a land, but still get a free body out of it. Then Lotus Field powers out both casts of Sevinne's... many options possible.

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Originally Posted by Fox

Nahiri was really hurt by Prismatic Ending soft-banning Klothys from the format. Klothys was a diversity killer, mono-cropping decks onto itself as the payoff/top-end, generating a loses to Nahiri meta. It's also been harder to justify slots on Yidaro or a SB 13/13 Emmy for Nahiri ult.

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Was Nahiri chosen to answer things like Klothys (exile enchantment) and Kaldra? 3feri bounce on germ also answers Kaldra well (and most Kaldra decks don't run Pyroblast). PEnding answers Klothys and other things that need to be exiled.

I found opponent can play around Nahiri by just not tapping creatures into it unless they have lethal. Then all you can do is +2 Rummage, which is a bit underwhelming for the investment of a 4cmc walker. One game I had a Nahiri on 12 counters that neither of us cared about.

Jace is more fragile, but at least did relevant things while it was out: Brainstorm into gas before dying, fateseal lock combo player, bounce Murktide (lol). I see Jace's weaknesses you've pointed out, but I'm not convinced a 2nd Nahiri is actually an improvement. Is there anything else?

In UWB, what walkers do you run other than Teferi? Kaya?

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@kombatkiwi Saga should not be a Saga surprise after an opponent takes their first turn as they should open with things like Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, Tomb, artifact land, Painter staples, etc. Against these, you should know not to play a Standstill on 2, and have a deck that wipes constructs [Verdict, Dress Down], deals with the tutor target [Ending, Kaya 3cmc if UBw], and has PWs/value pieces that take over the game (until hardcast Shark comes online).
If someone is playing slow, stealthy Saga they can't outpace Otawara bouncing your own Standstill. Having the Otawara isn't a reliable plan, but it's at least something for these corner cases.

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The issue is not that the opponent goes turn 1 reveal Yorion plains Mom, or turn 1 Emry or whatever, then I play standstill and my opponent plays Saga and I'm like "oh no how could I have seen that coming"; I agree that it's generally obvious very early which decks have saga in them. The issue is that from turn 1 once you know you are playing against these decks your primary card advantage tool essentially becomes an uncastable brick. This seems like a significant problem. Then as you say, some rogue decks might surprise you with a "slow" saga and your only barely-reasonable out is the 1 Otawara which doesn't sound great either.

My point was that it seems theres no way to build the deck that fully avoids this problem, despite your suggestion/implication otherwise. Vs the decks where you know they have Saga then you need "more brainstorm" to trade in your dead standstills for playable cards but cards like Lat Nams Legacy or Thirst For Meaning etc kind of suck. Against the surprise saga there aren't (any?) other Otawara-like cards you can play so the only reasonable approach is to play copies of wasteland and hope that you can waste their saga before it ticks up and kill them with shark/dragon before they find more, which is okay I guess but not a perfect solution by any means

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Now there's all kinds of ways Saga games can go, but you absolutely must not be submitting a list that gets massacred by something so simple as Saga -> Needle quad laser Shark'nado. This is horrifically bad to have 8 cards (Standstill and Shark) clogging up hands. Regardless of what deck you play in legacy, avoid 8-dead-carding yourself. You have to set the bar higher for a Saga user to one-shot you with dead card variance - we do not yolo with 4x Sharks. Add different card names, e.g. Timeless, Otawara, Saga, etc.

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This aspect seems overblown. The deck has quite a few ways to kill a needle (Tef Bounce or Ending / March), if you anticipate needle coming then you can just cycle Shark for minimum 2 mana to get it out of your hand, and even if you can't answer needle you can just play toward 6 mana and hardcast the Shark. If you were relying on the Shark to win through your Standstill, and then you got saga-needled, and now you can't answer the needle without giving opp 3 cards and you also can't cycle shark then I agree, you are fucked, but you were already fucked when the opp played a Saga into your onboard Standstill. It would still be really bad for you if your opponent ends up with 2 Karnstruct + e.g. Shadowspear instead of needle. I don't understand the panic about needle specifically.

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On the recursive, or non-blue, payoff permanent for UWr, it doesn't exist at this time. This plus no playable lifegain is the problem with UWr. We are in a holding pattern. We know exactly what the card needs to do. We will identify it the second it is spoiled and buy it before modern catches on ruins the price. But yes, this is why despite the amazing mana of UWr, it's the least competitive of the serious Standstill-using decks.

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I don't know that I necessarily agree with the conclusion but the premise is reasonable

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On UBw Landstill, got zero problems gaining tons of life. Have lost 1 match to Murktide, and the only reason is that I didn't pay 13 for Deluge, which would have won. Murktide existing has vastly improved Standstill's meta position, b/c Standstill is built to not die to Goyf. You best believe I will Deluge with impunity vs Bolt-Delver on the back of Cling, Kaya, and Rider + kill spells that put dudes in the Cling zone. DRC is also a joke when it comes to pressuring life total vs UBw; nothing makes me happier than obliterating Daze with land drops at the low low cost of 1 life per turn.

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I agree totally with the "standstill built not to die to goyf" comment but having your removal be almost universally terrible vs murktide seems concerning. (Edict bad if they have the 1/1 DRC, Thirst cost 3, Winter can't hit it, Ending can't hit it, Deluge so much life, Drown also awkward)

Overall I can see the usefulness of Cling/Kaya but I still think I would build toward UWb instead of UBw. Moving from Bloodchiefs Thirst / Innocent Blood to Plow / Ending and playing Verdict over the black sweepers feels like an upgrade, Drown doesn't excite me either

The issue with UWb is that black really doesn't have anything going for it as a tertiary color:
-You're not going to skip Verdict to pick up black's fast, color un-intensive 3cmc wrath.
-You're not able to use Cling effectively vs UBw where it is a reasonable way for black mana to find blue (in the same way that Timeless allows white to find blue).
-Unconditional PW kill spells are going to require double black pips, so that's out (stuck on Ending maxing out at 3 colors).
-You lose the best mana-requiring counterspell in the format (Drown). Really bad idea to aggro out a basic Swamp on turn 2, and even worse to lose on the spot by grabbing early Usea into death to Wasteland. You're also exiling everything with white spells, which is not a combo.
-Can't use CTP. Colonnade is not playable. No longer able to be Landstill.
-Not gaining any non-Pyroblast'able value engine. Loss of Karn, loss of SB space to REBs.

In UBw I already have the only good white spells, and these start on 3 mana. Ending can come down earlier ofc, but the only proactive spells in white are Sevinne's, Teferi, and Kaya. On UWb I would at least keep Kaya, but it's not like there is a great WB value engine at 4 mana. I don't think 5cmc Kaya is really the answer either. It's definitely cool to have Timeless Dragon and more generically reliable removal, but it really is just being done so I can play a 1x Kaya 3cmc + 1x Cling (at most) in the main, and 2x Plague Engi and 2x Unmoored Ego in the side. REB effects and Spikefield are going win more games, and the tiny black splash won't fix the lifegain nor the value engine problems.

I get that Plow/Ending/Verdict feel safer/less polarized than a UB-focused removal package, but you have nothing to play towards with the UW focus if the matchup doesn't favor casting Standstill. A UB focus has no issue stabilizing the board over and over and over, then transitioning to a late game win by Kaya-cannon or total mana denial/prison by Karn. Meanwhile UW is just like "I can hardcast Sharks..." which is still a line in UBx.

In UWr you're not going to find a hard answer to Saga, but you are able to "dance" around the problem with Wastelands, maybe some March, some SB Alpine Moons, not getting variance 1-shot'd by Needle naming quad Shark (b/c Standstills are almost certainly dead)...but at some point you need to divert mana into a real gameplan better than "I'll hardcast Shark and somehow get there." Adding a black splash to UW isn't really going to fix this. If your "value engines" are Teferi and Narset, you've died at deck construction.
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@FTW remember you can ult Nahiri to pull out a SCM or a Dragon, both of which go back to hand and can generate value. Nahiri has significant wording issues and cannot downtick to exile Kaldra. The only playable card in legacy that actually kills Kaldra is March for x=7; otherwise you need a Stifle and the opponent has to go for a foolish flicker effect. Doesn't help that wotc "made legacy better" by taking away the indirect phasing + token exiled axis of interaction; the format is poorer for this exceptionally shortsighted update. Back to the value stuff, there really isn't anything from white or red. Chandra, Acolyte of Flame + Path of Mettle + Humility is sweet, but is more fun than good. Gideon and flash-Gideon (Wandering Emporer) just aren't good enough. Chandra, ToD has similar problems: we don't care about how it tries to win. We're not making progress by attacking life totals with 2/2s or shocks. For all the flaws, Nahiri is the most 1-card combo'ish and still feeds into the wincon method.

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Originally Posted by Fox

@FTW remember you can ult Nahiri to pull out a SCM or a Dragon, both of which go back to hand and can generate value.

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I don't remember the exact details, but I'm pretty sure the board position was such that -8 for Dragon would have left Nahiri dead to attacks. I already had a Dragon in the graveyard and a plan to win that game, so suiciding Nahiri for 1 creature seemed unnecessary. In other hypothetical game states I could sacrifice Nahiri to get Dragon or SCM, but at that point why not have Nahiri just be a different wincon? It was a good example of how often Nahiri can be a "do nothing".

Maybe I just haven't gotten to cast it into a tapped Murktide/Griselbrand/Uro yet to really appreciate it. Before Prismatic Ending, I could see how exiling artifacts and enchantments would be useful. But Plow + Prismatic + Snapcaster is already plenty of exile removal, and now there's March too.

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Originally Posted by Fox

Nahiri has significant wording issues and cannot downtick to exile Kaldra.

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Oh right. The creature isn't Vigilant, but the equipment stays untapped. Even worse then. If it could remove Kaldra, that would be a big point in its favor. With Klothys seeing less play, what is Nahiri for then?

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Originally Posted by Fox

Back to the value stuff, there really isn't anything from white or red. Chandra, Acolyte of Flame + Path of Mettle + Humility is sweet, but is more fun than good. Gideon and flash-Gideon (Wandering Emporer) just aren't good enough. Chandra, ToD has similar problems: we don't care about how it tries to win. We're not making progress by attacking life totals with 2/2s or shocks. For all the flaws, Nahiri is the most 1-card combo'ish and still feeds into the wincon method.

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What about Keranos, God of Storms? Only Pyroblastable on the stack, which is easier to play around. Enchantment type has synergy with Heliod & ETutor. Pitches to Force.

Wandering Emperor's flash can at least exile Marit Lage, Murktide, Kaldra token, Griselbrand etc. before they deal combat damage. With Nahiri you have to take the hit first.

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Originally Posted by Fox

In UWr you're not going to find a hard answer to Saga

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

My point was that it seems theres no way to build the deck that fully avoids this problem, despite your suggestion/implication otherwise. Vs the decks where you know they have Saga then you need "more brainstorm" to trade in your dead standstills for playable cards but cards like Lat Nams Legacy or Thirst For Meaning etc kind of suck.

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March of Otherworldly Light? If Saga and higher cmc permanents are a big enough problem to remove, why not swap some Prismatics for March?

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The issue with UWb is that black really doesn't have anything going for it as a tertiary color:
-You're not going to skip Verdict to pick up black's fast, color un-intensive 3cmc wrath.
-You're not able to use Cling effectively vs UBw where it is a reasonable way for black mana to find blue (in the same way that Timeless allows white to find blue).
-Unconditional PW kill spells are going to require double black pips, so that's out (stuck on Ending maxing out at 3 colors).
-You lose the best mana-requiring counterspell in the format (Drown). Really bad idea to aggro out a basic Swamp on turn 2, and even worse to lose on the spot by grabbing early Usea into death to Wasteland. You're also exiling everything with white spells, which is not a combo.
-Can't use CTP. Colonnade is not playable. No longer able to be Landstill.
-Not gaining any non-Pyroblast'able value engine. Loss of Karn, loss of SB space to REBs.

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This kind of summarizes the reasons why black doesn't impress me as a secondary colour either. Your argument is that you get
1) Reliably casting cling early
2) Drown
3) Tarpit
None of those things seem like very big attractions, then:
4) "Unconditional PW kill spells" (not even true that they require double black pips, you could just play Vindicate or the new uncounterable UBW one)
5) "Unpyroblastable value engine" Can't any build of the deck play Karn? ("loss of SB space to reb" doesn't make sense here because we're comparing it to UWb, not jeskai)

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In UBw I already have the only good white spells, and these start on 3 mana. Ending can come down earlier ofc,

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I feel like Ending/Verdict are pretty important

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it really is just being done so I can play a 1x Kaya 3cmc + 1x Cling (at most) in the main, and 2x Plague Engi and 2x Unmoored Ego in the side. REB effects and Spikefield are going win more games, and the tiny black splash won't fix the lifegain nor the value engine problems.

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I mostly agree with this characterisation of the limited utility of UWb but I still feel like UWr has more upside than UBw

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but you have nothing to play towards with the UW focus if the matchup doesn't favor casting Standstill. A UB focus has no issue stabilizing the board over and over and over, then transitioning to a late game win by Kaya-cannon or total mana denial/prison by Karn. Meanwhile UW is just like "I can hardcast Sharks..." which is still a line in UBx.

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I just don't find this argument very convincing (that against matchups where standstill is bad you are saved by having Karn/Kaya)
The point about hardcasting sharks is that if that is a sufficient plan then you wouldn't need e.g. Karn. It's not to say that it is an option exclusive to UWx

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In UWr you're not going to find a hard answer to Saga, but you are able to "dance" around the problem with Wastelands, maybe some March, some SB Alpine Moons, not getting variance 1-shot'd by Needle naming quad Shark (b/c Standstills are almost certainly dead)...but at some point you need to divert mana into a real gameplan better than "I'll hardcast Shark and somehow get there." Adding a black splash to UW isn't really going to fix this. If your "value engines" are Teferi and Narset, you've died at deck construction.

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It's not clear to me how UBw solves this problem either

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March of Otherworldly Light? If Saga and higher cmc permanents are a big enough problem to remove, why not swap some Prismatics for March?

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If you don't have Standstill in play then you have lots of options, you can March the saga or Dressdown the constructs or Prismatic Ending the 1 mana artifact etc. The problem I was describing is that vs a Saga deck what are you planning to do with your 'uncastable' standstills, or what are you planning to do that lets you respond to your opponent's saga when you already have standstill in play? March doesn't help with this.

If the main problem with Jeskai is supposedly lack of lifegain and lack of non-Pyroable value engine (these concerns seem reasonable to me) I'm surprised that Wandering Emperor is categorically "not good enough"

Cling is free/random maindeck yard hate, plus it helps black mana find blue, and it is a non-Pyroblast'able value engine. It is as important to black as Timeless is to white. These are Daze killers, which make them the most valuable type of cards in the format. It's important to understand how catastrophic it is for Delver to put anything in their yard on turn 1 (so like a Fetchland), because I'm going to go Daze hunting with Cling. If they fail to comply by strip mining themselves off their first land drop (massacring their ability to cast Iteration any time soon), then I'm drawing extra towards lands to ensure Daze remains dead and they are crippled in the hunt for delirium and delve 5. It also exiles Uro.

But remember, no matter how amazing Cling is, the only decent proactive play that entire color will give you mainboard is Kaya 3cmc...and if black is the tertiary color, there is no way you can safely & reliably build early towards the only mana-requiring counterspell worth playing in this format (Drown).

On Creeping Tarpit, the main challenge in all Standstill decks was sitting around for years, sometimes decades, waiting for colored mana on not 3x Factory. The win percentage you generate by dropping the 3x Factory for the 2x better mana manland is significant. The mana CTP can fix while acting as a game action threat is incredibly valuable, so much so that we'll play 2x despite the etb tapped part.

I would not compare simple PW kill spells to cards with lifelink on the back end of Rider (remember lifegain is a fundamental deficit of UWr). Nor would I compare a 1 mana kill spell (Bloodchief's) to 3 mana cards which are either counterable or have heavy color requirements.

If you are on UWr/UWR Standstill/Landstill with Karn, you've got a lot of bad matchups and that lifegain problem. When you start tallying, it becomes readily apparent that you're playing crappy UW Dreadstill or crappy UBw Landstill. Choosing the less winning shell is meme'ing; it is neither serious nor competitive.

On Ending/Verdict, they're very good spells...but they aren't proactive...and you can't really trust blue for proactive beyond 2cmc b/c of Pyroblast. You get to 3cmc and blue (Teferi) and you need the backup by not-blue (Sevinne's) to get away with that in this format. Otherwise you're not making competitive choices. There is maybe some competitive higher cmc blue PW stuff you can do if you have the black channel land doing a Sevinne's impersonation...but again that's a black land putting you on black as the secondary color, not tertiary.
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Some minor points:
-if UWr changes Ending to March, they don't have the backup PW kill spells UBw has. You're creating a new problem for yourself.
-Plow/Ending is pretty safe and consistent, but it's also one-dimensional. UB-based removal has higher highs and lower lows, but it is multi-dimensional. They're both competitive removal packages, it's just that UBw doesn't have lifegain problems, nor as many Pyroblast problems as UWr; so there just isn't a good followup after you take the safe white removal package.
-on Wandering Emporer, if you ult you gain 2 life and have to wait 2 turns to do anything that impacts the board. The kill mode needs to draw a card and the lifegain has to be at least as good as Solitude each turn. In either case there is no value engine, which is what the slot needed to provide.

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Originally Posted by Fox

-on Wandering Emporer, if you ult you gain 2 life and have to wait 2 turns to do anything that impacts the board. The kill mode needs to draw a card and the lifegain has to be at least as good as Solitude each turn. In either case there is no value engine, which is what the slot needed to provide.

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Wandering Emperor's ult gains 2+X life (X is power of attacking creature), since it can interrupt combat. That's a big deal for creatures like Murktide, Kaldra, Kappa, Constructs, Uro, Griselbrand, Emrakul, or Marit Lage. That could be 7 or more life. Even killing DRC/Delver is 5 life.

With Nahiri's exile ability you have to take the attack first (0 life gained vs X+2 life), then make Nahiri at sorcery speed and pass with Nahiri on 2 counters. That leaves Nahiri dead to anything else on board, trading 1-for-1 & 2 life. To use the removal you had to allow the attack and only got to do 1 thing.

Emperor cannot be attacked the combat you flash it, so it will probably survive no matter what opponent has on board. Then you untap and activate a 2nd loyalty ability before Emperor is vulnerable to attacks. 2 abilities in a row. If it would die to board, you can suicide to make a 2/2 (still 2-for-1 & gain X+2 life). If opponent has nothing else on board or you want to gain more life by diverting attacks, you +1 back up to 2 counters for long-term value. Either way you get options. Flash makes the card much better.

Emperor's other mode is ambushing a dork as a flash 2/2, then you attack back as 3/3 first strike vigilance. It's a pseudo-hasty Rogue Elephant vs enemy walkers.

Is that as good a value engine as Kaya or Jace (outside Pyro matches)? Of course not. But I don't see how it's worse than a 2nd Nahiri. Between the life and 2/2s, Emperor has a bigger impact on stabilizing. Nahiri's + ability is not a value engine. It doesn't generate free cards, just card selection, and Rummage is much worse than Loot. Many times I have opted to not dig, because my hand was already decent and a random card could make it worse.

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Originally Posted by Fox

If you are on UWr/UWR Standstill/Landstill with Karn, you've got a lot of bad matchups and that lifegain problem. When you start tallying, it becomes readily apparent that you're playing crappy UW Dreadstill or crappy UBw Landstill. Choosing the less winning shell is meme'ing; it is neither serious nor competitive.

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What about Karn, Scion of Urza? Non-pyroblastable. Draws cards. Makes bodies. Doesn't take up SB space or look like a bad Dreadstill copy.

Another non-Pyroblastable value engine is Urza's Saga+Heliod. In my limited games with your build and my old build, Saga snowballs got me a lot of wins. Recurring Saga is a significant long-term threat and plays well with Standstill. The main answer is Wasteland, but you can Saga->Needle @ Wasteland, Surgical @ Wasteland, or use Sevinne's to keep bringing the lands back. Opponent could choose to fight harder on that axis, but you can pivot without having committed many resources. Saga also improves your options vs opposing Sagas, since you can out-value them if they refuse to crack Standstill. I want to test this out more. UWr may be the best color combo to pull this off, due to the more stable mana.

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

If you don't have Standstill in play then you have lots of options, you can March the saga or Dressdown the constructs or Prismatic Ending the 1 mana artifact etc. The problem I was describing is that vs a Saga deck what are you planning to do with your 'uncastable' standstills, or what are you planning to do that lets you respond to your opponent's saga when you already have standstill in play? March doesn't help with this.

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If you have Standstill in play and opponent plays Saga (and you're on a non-Saga UWr build with slow threats like Shark and Dragon), then you have the following options:
a) Scoop cards. 0% win rate.
b) Don't cast spells and let Constructs + Saga target kill you. 0% win rate.
c) Cast a spell to disrupt Saga, cracking your own Standstill. 20-30% win rate.

None of the cards mentioned by you or Fox help A or B. So we're really talking about C in game 1, before boarding out Standstill. You slammed Standstill, opponent played Saga, much regret. At this stage giving opponent free cards still beats scooping to Saga, so you want ways to help come back in this game down cards. Control can still stabilize after falling behind cards (unlike the 1-for-1 decks). Your odds are bad, but not impossible. March is a clean 1-mana instant speed answer that prevents the tutor target and both Constructs, setting them back 1 land. Answering the Constructs and tutor target separately (Dress Down + PEnding, Verdict + Needle) costs more resources and makes it that much harder to stay in the game. Fox's argument about planeswalkers is a bigger point against March. But maybe some 2/2 or 3/1 split isn't a bad idea? March answers a few things that PEnding doesn't.

Value engines also helps you come back. Narset doesn't really, though it at least disrupts the draw 3 if you have to crack Standstill. I wouldn't trust Nahiri to save me.

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Originally Posted by Fox

On Creeping Tarpit, the main challenge in all Standstill decks was sitting around for years, sometimes decades, waiting for colored mana on not 3x Factory. The win percentage you generate by dropping the 3x Factory for the 2x better mana manland is significant. The mana CTP can fix while acting as a game action threat is incredibly valuable, so much so that we'll play 2x despite the etb tapped part.

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In UW(r) Landstill circa 2010ish, I played Celestial Colonnade. It quickly became too slow for the format, but there were clear advantages to having manlands tap as duals instead of colorless. Evasion helped too. I can see why Tar Pit would be good in UBw.

Have you ever tested Shambling Vent (life gain) or Wandering Fumarole (un-Boltable 4/1) over the years? They're probably too weak, but just curious.

Urza’s saga is a core legacy card and your strategy fundamentally is weak to it. Like 12 post and wasteland (quad needle) or legacy lantern and brainstorm (quad chains?). You need many real answers to it before it makes sense to talk about anything else.

I might be out of the loop, but why are we not playing BANT-plenish? Collosal Skyturtle and Boseiju, Who Endures seems to be the most maindeckable ways of answering the card. Replenish is a big, non-blue must answer card. And skyturtle/shark typhoon/hall of heliod seems like a very resilient engine.

I like wandering emperor. Land still has Eot’d snap plow for a long time after the opponent cracks it, and this is the same thing but a bigger threat and not blastable.

Probably too weak, but Touch the Spirit Realm is another possible include.

The green stuff is hard to support in UWg.

UGw is an option. Boseiju, Skyturtle, Sylvan Library. The mana seems harder to support white removal and Timeless Dragon, which could be a stability issue. Fox?

Green does offer more planeswalker value options that dodge Pyroblast. Calix, Destiny's Hand? Nissa? Garruk? Wrenn and Seven?

Would that just be a worse version of Bant, when Bant gets to run Uro?

In UWr the answers are Alpine Moon, Blood Moon, March, Wasteland, Surgical Extraction, Dress Down, or own Urza's Saga -> Needle @ Saga OR Map -> Heliod -> more Saga.
Does black offer better answers?

I think you can afford a lot more basics in UWg than bant can. You can always play the first boseiju out as a green source for the next ones, and you are only using the regrowth ability of turtle in the lategame. Whereas uro really wants 2 green sources ASAP.

Replenish is also a lot stronger against specifically surgical and red blast than uro is, which is what delver uses to combat it.

The thing is that Wandering Emporer is 4 mana, so it's the same card as Nahiri on 4 mana (dead to Daze). Have to wait 1 more turn on Emporer to hit 5th land, and their attacking dude is tapped, so you're main-phasing Emporer just as you would the Nahiri to downtick and kill.
When you look at the rest of these two walkers you note that Nahiri downtick murders Saga (you're free to cast Standstill and let them play all the Sagas they want to), has wider targets, can shape hand, and can tutor SCM to imitate the downtick of Emporer. If someone plays Saga and threatens to make constructs, good luck shutting that down with Emporer (i.e. good luck having Emporer in play and ever being able to cast Standstill on top of it).
Nahiri will create more issues for an Uro midrange, Grixis Jammy Jams, and UWr MindTwister than making 2/2s into opponents who will have hands full of creature kill spells which lacked targets up to that point. Nahiri can also tutor up legends, which combine with Karakas to punish kill spell users. It's not much of a deckbuilding cost to add 1x Yidaro for instance.

On Karn Scion, it's bad against Delver. Daze problems, and the payoff is you get a 1/1 and it dies to Bolt, yay. Like you've noted, Saga is basically the same thing, just better, faster, less interactive, and recursive (Heliods, Sevinne's).

Shambling Vent is double off-color, so it may as well tap for colorless. Manlands like this increase mulligans. Fumarole costs way to much to animate + has no protection. UR Dreadstill is much more aggressive than any other Standstill deck, and cannot afford to lose the early tempo of a tapped land that won't improve any matchup.

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

I think you can afford a lot more basics in UWg than bant can. You can always play the first boseiju out as a green source for the next ones, and you are only using the regrowth ability of turtle in the lategame. Whereas uro really wants 2 green sources ASAP.

Replenish is also a lot stronger against specifically surgical and red blast than uro is, which is what delver uses to combat it.

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Competitive legacy is key. There is a card called Endurance, and it cannot be ignored. The only correct way to play Replenish is to Burning Wish for the 1x - preferably with Teferi in play. There is no UWG Replenishing, you need 4c at this time.

I don’t see where you are seeing all these endurance’s. The top tables are delver, jeskai, 8cast and reanimator. You don’t need to commit to the replenish, you can bait with hall of heliod until you force action.

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

I don’t see where you are seeing all these endurance’s. The top tables are delver, jeskai, 8cast and reanimator. You don’t need to commit to the replenish, you can bait with hall of heliod until you force action.

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Endurance is just one. Replenish still walks harder into all grave hate in a format that has to be prepared for T1 Grief-Griselbrand or T1 Oops into Thassa.

You commit by having -1 hand size all game. That's avoidable with the Wishboard. You don't have to lose a card to Replenish until you force a state where Replenish would be profitable (Wish can be converted into PEnding or Sevinne or trade with a counter for less mana than 3W). Heliod + Sevinne shenanigans are easier to play around hate without committing as much, and Heliod is usually already enough to take over a game.

Ok that’s fair. Heliod + shark typhoon is already a pretty strong engine and Skyturtle provides insurance.

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

Ok that’s fair. Heliod + shark typhoon is already a pretty strong engine and Skyturtle provides insurance.

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Yeah.

Heliod -> EOT return Standstill
Cast Standstill (if countered, repeat until Standstill sticks)
Cycle Shark
Heliod -> return Shark

Lategame that's already very hard for opponent to deal with. You can arbitrarily outdraw and outbody them. You can hide Shark Typhoon in hand unless Standstill is out, so it's never exposed to grave hate without feeding you free cards as compensation (can't do that with Replenish). Teferi's passive reduces their GY hate interaction window even more. Most of those are uncounterable actions that can be done at instant speed. If they kill Heliod, stuff like Skyturtle and Sevinne can bring it back. Most of the time that's already enough. You can get there through an active Standstill, without having to run 4-mana sorceries that could be dead cards.

While Turtle is cool and all, we've already got everything covered with Sevinne's re-up Heliod, Heliod re-up enchants, Burning Wish gaining another pair of 2 mana plays + re-up Heliod by Wish target Sevinne's + re-up enchants with Wish target Replenish (saving about $450 on doomed to fail copies 2, 3, and 4).

The recursion loops are already set, so why are we grabbing green cards? What are we gaining? Why are we contaminating the best mana in the format? How is our non-Pyroblast'able value engine and lifegain issue being solved? Uro is not a card we play with Standstill, b/c it doesn't work.

Like don't get me wrong, you can play no green mana at all except 4x Boseju in an otherwise strict UW deck and have let's say 1x channel Turtle. The point of the green being purely for Ending's 3rd color and magical christmasland where each turn you have a green mana -> rebuy best card with channel Turtle -> necro Turtle to top of deck with Heliod -> repeat ad nauseum.

^This is a pretty tough ask b/c no problems were solved and we lost Burning Wish & sideboard Blasts....and that loss of Burning Wish means your down a few 2 mana plays and Replenish is gone for good (tack on another $150 penalty).

When you talk about going all in on ReplenishStill, aka Enchantment Reanimator, we should probably take a look at the very dead miner's canary: LED Dredge. We don't need to sleeve up a deck and brew because team Dredge donated their unpaid hours to our stat mine; they failed, so we know *how* not to repeat their mistake.

Now you might have a timing to play yolo-Replenish to some degree of success, but it has nothing to do with the inherent viability of Replenish spamming. What we have right now in legacy is total hand destruction having a narrow window where they can beat Goyf [Murktide] and FIRE [Uro]. Total hand destruction being: Hymn in Grixis and Day's Undoing in UWr MindTwister. Both strategies can one-shot FIRE b/c Uro requires a yard they're exiling with HSR or shuffling away with Day's.

^now let's refine that information:
-Endurance presence skyrockets once Uro comes back.
-Uro is coming back the moment wotc wakes up and realizes Mind Twist and Timetwister are on the banlist, yet somehow Day's (and Echo) aren't...and in either case they act as not just Mind Twist, but also Timetwister at the same time.
-But right now in legacy, today, both Grixis and UWr are suppressing Uro (and thus Endurance)...by nuking graveyards.
-So while it's preferable that the GY wipes 3 cost mana, are sorcery speed, and play into FoN; rather than 0 mana, flash, creature Endurance...it doesn't look good for Replenish spam.

Take all your stats and add every single deck with Day's, Echo, HSR, Endurance and figure out how much is left in the meta...with the understanding that a large chunk of the leftovers are going to play Saga (maindeck Soul-Guide) or will be UR Delver with Daze. There isn't much left of the legacy format for you to predate with Replenish.

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Originally Posted by Fox

While Turtle is cool and all, we've already got everything covered with Sevinne's re-up Heliod, Heliod re-up enchants, Burning Wish gaining another pair of 2 mana plays + re-up Heliod by Wish target Sevinne's + re-up enchants with Wish target Replenish (saving about $450 on doomed to fail copies 2, 3, and 4).

The recursion loops are already set, so why are we grabbing green cards? What are we gaining? Why are we contaminating the best mana in the format? How is our non-Pyroblast'able value engine and lifegain issue being solved? Uro is not a card we play with Standstill, b/c it doesn't work.

Like don't get me wrong, you can play no green mana at all except 4x Boseju in an otherwise strict UW deck and have let's say 1x channel Turtle. The point of the green being purely for Ending's 3rd color and magical christmasland where each turn you have a green mana -> rebuy best card with channel Turtle -> necro Turtle to top of deck with Heliod -> repeat ad nauseum.

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I think the reason Green came up is Boseiju, Who Endures cleanly answers Urza's Saga and other problems through Standstill, while the other 4 colors have a harder time doing it without casting spells (Wasteland does too, but Boseiju hits more things). Uro, PEnding, and turtle engine plan A are not the reasons.

Boseiju would require Bant colors instead of red or black. Once already in Bant, 1-of Skyturtle is easy value. It loops with Heliod, casts Petty Theft on land-go strats through Standstill (Marit Lage, Constructs), and eventually wins the game. You lose Wish and Replenish, but Boseiju and Colossal Skyturtle are both 2 mana plays.

What do you gain? Boseiju. Green also offers non-Pyroblastable value engines through Sylvan Library or planeswalkers. Are there any green or GW walkers that are worth it?

I think most of those PWs are Ajannis and/or dude-centric. The best green PW last time I checked is Grist followed by Nissa of the 5/5s. It'd be really tough to beat out Nahiri's ability to spam [-2] exile your Saga. The PW would have to be able to be played, then have a Standstill cast on top of it, and never have to pay attention to hostile Saga.