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I'm playing 18 lands by the way. If I draw it in the starting 7, most of the time I just brainstorm it away; but then again, I also do the same thing with Goyf. I don't feel comfortable tapping out for two mana in my turn. Concerning not having enough mana, it seldom happens. I can always choose to keep 3 lands due to the high number of cantrips thresh plays.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pherion
To the guys running 18 lands, how is it treating you? Cause i am currently running 19 and i am contemplating on cutting a fetch and increase my stifle count to 4.
Speaking of not liking 'goyf, check out this first place list of a 103 player tourney in Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Sun
http://www.manainfinito.com/2012/cov...lcl-2012-junio
Zero 'goyfs. Instead there are two Snapcasters and two GSZs.
I'm going to try the Mages, as that sounds fun and I always want a goddamn Lightning Bolt back to burn face. The only reason I can think of to not have Snapcaster Mages is because this deck wants to stop at 2 lands in play to fully benefit from Brainstorm, to prevent getting Wastelocked, and because it totally CAN run on two active lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by cheerios
Also, love your sig Cheerios.
Latest list (AFAIK) from Moyschewitz as of 3rd of June:
Creatures
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
2 Dismember
1 Fire/Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
Lands
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Mind Harness
2 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Flusterstorm
Players beeing unimpressed by Goyf seems to draw a line through the whole archetype.
Discuss.
PS
Am I truly the only Threshold player from germany who discusses in this forum? Pls proof me wrong. ;(
I run a main Ooze and one in the board. It has been the nuts for me every single time it enters the battlefield. Great against Miracledecks (snapcaster), RUG (obvious reasons), Maverick, Combo (threshhold for Cabal Ritual etc and locks out Ill-gotten gains) and gets you life when needed. It requires Green mana but that you usually have access to.
I rather play ooze than snapcaster, more benefits and same mana consumtion.
My current list I've been pretty happy with:
// Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
// Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
// Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
2 Thought Scour
1 Dead/Gone
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Rough/Tumble
SB: 1 Gilded Drake
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
@ brainwasher - could you explain a little bit about your meta? From your discussion of cutting Lightning Bolt earlier in the week and your decklist it looks like you are facing a lot of Stoneblade and Maverick. A few questions about your list:
6 Fetch / 8 Lands - why not the opposite?
2 Dismember - Are you facing down lots of KotRs, Germ tokens, and/or Tombstalkers?
4 Spell Snare - is this for SFM, SCM, Thalia, Ooze, etc?
I'm curious to hear the reason behind your decisions. I think your meta must be very different than mine, because I'm facing lots of combo and I find 4 Spell Pierce essential and oftentimes Spell Snare and Dismember are worthless.
@ jimirynk
Why Dead/Gone, over say, Forked Bolt or Fire/Ice? What creatures do you use the Gone against?
What is your meta like? Do you face off against a lot of swarm decks (Elves, Affinity, Goblins) that make the Rough/Tumble worth it?
Thanks!
The gone side is good vs bigger creatures (of coarse) examples grizzelbrand, batterskull germ, tombstalker, blazing archon, dreadnaught, knight, sometimes just opposing goyfs. Its not a personal meta tuned list, this is what I would play in any torn tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
Rough/tumble is card I bring is vs a lot swarm decks of coarse but I found it to be the best card vs maverick, it stops you from having to submerge 1 drops as aggressively.
I forgive you, because it appears you are a non-native English speaker and perhaps some of your insults are not meant as such. However, why don't you talk a little bit about your meta rather than saying "Bolt's no good" and "I don't like Tarmogoyf." It seems like you have made a decision (cut 'goyf/bolt and run more dismember/spell snare) and you are uncertain about talking yourself into it, so you are looking for support (some people to say 'Yeah, that's a good idea' or 'I tried it and liked it.'). If you have a gut feeling it's a good decision for your meta, then just test it out. Make the changes and test it out and write back and tell us all about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher
Let me tell you about my meta. I face a lot of combo - S&S, Reanimator, and Belcher. I face small creature decks - Elves, Affinity, and Goblins. I face rouge decks - mono-black, mono-white, etc. I face the mirror. I face burn.
Therefore, I find Goyf to be good because he can block a lot of the small creatures I face.
I also find Lightning Bolt and Forked Bolt to be good, because I can kill problem creatures and oftentimes get a 2:1.
I find Spell Pierce to be good because it allows me to survive against Combo and stops removal vs. random decks.
Dismember would be bad for me because: 1) I rarely face creatures large enough to fully utilize -5/-5, and 2) the life loss would hurt too much vs. swarm decks, Burn, and the mirror.
Spell Snare is also not very good for me. It does nothing against S&S and little against the mirror.
It seems like your meta is different than mine.
Have you tested Gone? Against Griselbrand, it probably doesn't matter, as they are going to draw 7/14 in response and find another way to deploy him/win the game/counter Gone. I imagine Knight would have prop red, although perhaps not (I would rather run Submerge out of the board vs. Knight). 'Nought = Ancient Grudge. Archon, good call. Gone could save the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimirynk
Good call on R/T. I'll give it a try.
The list that was shown in my last post is not from me, it is from Fabian Moyschewitz (who is unarguably one of the best players of the deck in europe/allover the globe), don't get that wrong. I'll explain later what my thoughts and decisions are based on in my current list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
brainwasher - thanks, I'm looking forward to it
My list, at present:
3 Goyf
1 Ooze
4 Delver
4 Mongoose
3 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thought Scour
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
SB:
4 Submerge
4 Tormod's Crypt (I recently bumped it up to 4 because of all the Reanimator)
2 BEB
1 REB
1 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
As I mentioned above, my list is tuned for combo, namely Reanimator, Sneak and Show, and Belcher, tribal decks, like Elves and Goblins, and 'The Others' as AJ Sacher calls them.
Recently, I cut a Goyf for a 3rd Forked Bolt. I tried running +4 Stifle, - 1 Forked Bolt, -2 Thought Scour, -1 Tarmogofy. I found that was better against Combo, but worst against creature decks and 'The Others.'
The BEB in the board are to help out in the Belcher and Sneak and Show match and against Burn.
I like Ooze main as a MD answer to Reanimator. I'm considering the GSZ package again.
The most underutilized cards in my board are Submerge and Life from the Loam. I could probably cut Submerge down to 3 and replace a slot with Rough/Tumble, Mind Harness, or possibly a 3rd REB/PB. Life from the Loam is for the mirror and I just haven't been facing very much mirror lately.
I'm considering splitting Tormod's Crypt to 2 Crypt / 2 Surgical Extraction because some Reanimator lists run Pithing Needle. If I run a 2/2 split, that's more incentive to run Snapcaster Mage.
brainwasher, looking forward to your response. I'm interested in what decks you're facing and what you're doing to combat them.
I am quite confused at this point. I wrote a more or less accurate decsription why I think that Lightning Bolt is not the card it used to be and why the deck seems to be in a better shape with removal in form of Forked Bolt, F/I and Dismember in general. The whole thrown @ face thing is something that has taken a back seat (even if it is still possible with every card mentioned outside Dismember) and other cards have a greater impact on the games nowadays, nameley situtational countermagic, Stifle and flexible/pseudo removal. I chose the extreme of NoBolt to finally get into some discussion, which was really lackluster for a long time in this thread, even if it was ment to be more about which split of burnspells makes sense right now (pretty much like Snare and Pierce).Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
@Goyf:
Someone could write a novel about arguing back and forth why it is good to run a specific number of creatures in addition to 4 Geese and Bees. I am not trying unfold that topic completeley (which I propably also couldn't do own by myself), so I can just say why I don't see myself wanting a playset, even 3 copies atm.
-Goyf is manaintensive
A full playset requires you to have constantly (at least) 3 lands on the table to protect wether it, or beeing able to counter effectiveley what you opponent throws in front of you on the following turn. Even worse, you might be forced to run 19 lands.
Why this is not optimal:
The natural CA of Threshold is based upon beeing able to operate on lesser mana than your opponent does and the chance to deny the greater part of the opposing mana-curve. Spells that slip through this strategy, which is enabled mostly by Stifle and Wasteland, are handled by cheap countermagic and burnspells. Every land you place on the table and every land your opponents get, takes a bite out of this exact strategy. Since Innistrad was greatful enough to spend this deck a clock that costs only 1 mana and supports the decks role for obvious reasons, Tarmogoyfs purpose has shrunk.
-different interpretation of the decks role/different meta
As already discussed to death, Threshold (or better RUG at that stage) is capable of achieving the same goals with very different approaches. Both ways of packing more lands and creatures while moving away from Stifle and/or Spell Snare, as well as to count on the manadenial plan and act more as a controlish deck, differ in their effectivity against single MU's and opposing draws.
I stick to the latter, since my experience has shown that this approach is more of a catch-all in comparison. The meta I am playing in is very "healthy" in terms of a rather big variety of different decks and archetypes and beeing prepared for a meta of 60-100 players is something I am not willing to commit myself to completeley, so I stick to what favours me. No disrespect for other approaches included.
What is the evidence of this? I haven't made any final decision yet, so I was curious to get to know what other players feel like right now. That's the whole reason to use a forum (maybe outside of faineance.life.net), I guess? I don't feel like I have to justify myself in front of you, or any person here for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
That's what I did so far, which can be red on different sites of the thread. I also wrote a detailed report on a large tourney I did not so well in (for obvious reasons, cheers GL:wink:) once, but dropped the interest in doing so again since I haven't got a single response.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
The sad truth is, that this is the chronical illnes of TS. Do well, people listen, whatever bullshit you pack in your report. Have real content and not made Top8, not a single fuck is given.
I think I've learned to deal with that since I registered here and that's fine with me by a large margin. Even if it would be helpful here and there to write reports especially about the tourneys you did not so well in, to become better you know, not to put yourself in the spotlight in front of a internet community.
My meta contains of a lot of Maverick, RUG, Control in form of Miracle Whip, BUG and NicFit and Combo in form of Reanimator and storm-based combo. The rest is filled with every established Legacy that you might have ever heard of.
Sounds like your meta is like mine. How have you adapted to this? I also encounter some amount of Painter/Elves and therefor I feel the need to keep on to 6-8 target removal (be it L.Bolt/FI/FB or Dismember)
Right now I run 3 Goyfs but thinking of 2 with more Thought Scour on the side or 4 bolt+3forked.
You guys are saying that Tarmogoyf is mana intensive, and a good replacement for it is Green Sun's Zenith and Snapcaster Mage? You've just countered your own argument.
Tarmogoyf is good because he beats fast, and you can't always rely on Delver of Secrets to deliver the punches. The goddamned creature enters the battlefield as a 4/5 for 2 mana, and you're bitching he's bad?
I agree that playing them as a four-of might clog your hand a little, but I'd really prefer 2 Goyfs on the table than 1 Goyf and a Spell Pierce up. The creature by itself has a extremely dangerous clock, and it's a die hard one (when facing non-white decks).
There's a reason why he's one of the best creatures in this whole format, and why he fits this deck so perfectly. Tarmogoyf requires an answer, or it WILL beat your foe to death. It's kind of strange in a deck that always answers, but it's a primordial part of the gameplan taking your opponent's life to 0 (YOU DON'T SAY?). Replacing him with Snapcaster Mage is just stupid, because you'll have a more intensive mana play, that might make some fancy tricks.
I totally agree. Have you other guys read what this card does? Here I will link it for you... Tarmogoyf. He is viciously under costed and as previously stated, is pretty hard for non-white (I would argue that black decks can deal with him fairly easy too) decks to deal with. One of the key points of RUG Tempo is to race your opponent. So turn one dude and turn two dude. There is no better creature in a generic sense to play in this deck on turn two. Sure there are situational considerations like Scavenging Ooze on turn two versus Reanimator or Dredge (but in these scenarios you have to have some counter magic or hope you aren't just dead). That is arguably better. The clock Goyf alone can apply is part of the reason this deck is so good. I have been playing 4 plus a singleton maindeck Scavenging Ooze. It has been great for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
Ask yourself how often you get Wastelanded. I know that there are games where I fight through on two land alone. Sure there are games where I have 3-4 land. The possibility of having a dead Snapcaster Mage in hand is a reality in this format. You always want to get some solid value of of good old Snappy but in a deck with such a fragile mana base, in a format with loads of Wastes and Stifles, it can be really hard to hit 3 or more land. Or at very least keeping them in play for the right moment. Now if this is the case, you are basically running a strictly poorer version of Ambush Viper, see the lack of Deathtouch. I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't want to play that card in Legacy. Furthermore, his one toughness is taken down by just about every removal spell in the format. As people have been playing more Forked Bolts, he seems pretty bad to me. Additionally, he does not apply a significant clock like Goyf does. Would you rather Shock, Lightning Bolt, or Flame Javelin your opponent each turn? See Goyf can do all of those (and potentially more, see Lava Axe, etc.) and is harder to deal with, while Snappy can only Shock and likely dies in his first stand off. My opinion would be that if you want to play Snapcaster Mage you should probably play U/R Delver. You have a more sturdy mana base and approximately the same number of spells to sling. The problem will be that unless you have multiple Price of Progresses you will likely lose to RUG resolving a Goyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
I would argue that an efficient but vanilla beater like Tarmogoyf has been rendered obsolete in many Legacy decks, but this is the clear exception. Virtually no other tier 1 decks play the card anymore (other than Team America, which I haven't seen in forever), but that alone is enough for Goyf to regain his throne as the most played creature in Legacy.
I thought the primary purpose of the 19th land was to fight land destruction in the mirror.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher
Could you provide a link to this report?Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher
Thanks for providing information about your meta. This explains why Dismember is good and Goyf is bad. Dismember rocks vs. Maverick, Tombstalker, and NicFit (depending upon the version) and Goyf looks foolish staring down a KotR, creature with prop G, or a Grave Titan.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher
Thanks for explaining this. It makes perfect sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandalize
The Tarmogoyf/non-Tarmogoyf argument needs to be analyzed by match-up. No one is arguing that a 4/5 for 2 mana is too mana intensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
I'm going to break this into 3 categories:
1) Combo- namely Sneak and Show, Reanimator, and to a lesser extent, Belcher. Both S&S and Reanimator can put a fatty into play on turn 2. With Sneak and Show, this is possible with Sol-Lands or Lotus Petal and Show and Tell, and with Reanimator, it is possible with Entomb and Reanimate/Animate Dead/Exhume. Belcher can go off anytime, including Turn 0 (this is why we run Force of Will, thank goodness). The issue with Goyf in these combo match-ups is tapping out on Turn 2.
Let's say you have the play. Turn 1, you drop a Goose or Delver. Off to a good start. Turn 1, Reanimator drops a Swamp. Let's say you have a Spell Pierce and Daze in hand. Your Turn 2, do you want to tap out to play Goyf? Not really, because your opponent can end-of-turn Entomb. Even if you Daze this, your opponent could still FOW your Daze or make a 2nd turn land-drop and play Careful Study->Reanimate or 2nd Entomb->Reanimate. If Goyf is SCM in this situation, you can port it in at EOT and still have a 2/2 beater.
2) 'Fair' creature decks - decks like Maverick and Nic Fit. Goyf is not that good in these m/us because the second they get a bigger creature, 'Goyf turns into a chump blocker.
3) The rest of the field - 'Goyf is very good. Against decks like UR Delver, Burn, the mirror, etc., a 4/5 body for 2 is amazing. Any m/u we don't have to hold counter magic up, Goyf rocks.
The argument is not made that 'Goyf is bad overall or too mana intensive, there are just certain match-ups where he doesn't shine as much as he once did.
I think Goyf is good vs. combo. I sometimes rather tap out for a turn to get a 3/4 with only FoW instead of playing a 1/1 and leaving spell pierce open