Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andy_V
Past in Flames is good, and I have one in my wishboard, but I don't think it is better than the second Ad Nauseam, though I don't really have any testing behind it, just general theory.
Past In Flames requires you to get it with a Tutor (so you can flashback the tutor) and excessive mana, while Ad Nauseam tends to give you the mana back and then some. Drawing PIF naturally without a tutor makes it essentially worthless, unless you have 2 ponders in the GY and enough Blue and Red or Black Mana depending on the yard. Drawing 2 LEDs when you need instants/sorceries for PIF seems like it could be embarrasing as well.
I didn't post sooner because I was still testing this slot, I've gone back to Ad Nauseam main but I'll outline my reasoning. Basically if I wanted to burning wish for it from the side I would need 2 burning wish or 1 + 1infernal tutor since burning wish gets exiled when you cast it. it much more likely to have one infernal tutor than 2 burning wish and cast it from the main deck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andy_V
Further, you lose the ability to be annoying and fire off Ad Nauseam at the end of their turn and just combo off next turn (if you draw PIF instead of Ad Nauseam number 2, I mean). Some people are shy about countering a Silence/Chant on their upkeep thinking that the point is to stop pressure, when it's really for clearing the way.
I have never done this because I have never thought of doing it, I'm going to try this soon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andy_V
PIF wins when IGG can't and you don't have protection for Diminishing Returns. If you have protection, then Ad Nauseam is almost always going to win, unless you are at a low life total and have the right combination of cards in the yard. The speed of the deck, in my opinion, lends towards a second Ad Nauseam over PIF.
I disagree entirely. Past in flames gives you another one to two turns to combo off and allows you to slow down and strip their hand, recover from wasteland, and correct course.
Wining with Ad Nauseam is like playing chicken with fast cars on a short road to a cliff. If you spend too much time building up acceleration you'll end up driving over the cliff. Past in flames is way better, you can take your time and push the other guy over the cliff when he's burnt out from trying to race you.
I've gone back to two Ad Nauseam main deck for a few reasons, mainly because If I drew it naturally with Past in Flames main and only one ad nauseam in the deck it becomes difficult to use LEDs effectively, and in part the reasons you outlined. These are trade offs I'm not willing to make.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
John Cox
I didn't post sooner because I was still testing this slot, I've gone back to Ad Nauseam main but I'll outline my reasoning. Basically if I wanted to burning wish for it from the side I would need 2 burning wish or 1 + 1infernal tutor since burning wish gets exiled when you cast it. it much more likely to have one infernal tutor than 2 burning wish and cast it from the main deck.
I can't see how having 5 mana after infernal tutor (for PIF and recasting instants) is better than having 5 mana for Ad Nauseam, except in the case of life total. Also, you are required to get Ad Nauseam when you only have 2 LEDs (LED and 2 Petals, etc.) as acceleration. [EDIT] With 2 LEDs you could go R/U and get Wish+Diminishing Returns... still not PIF, even out of Wish Board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
John Cox
I disagree entirely. Past in flames gives you another one to two turns to combo off and allows you to slow down and strip their hand, recover from wasteland, and correct course.
IT for Past In Flames means you don't have a hand left, since you only have one in the deck. So on the combo turn you are going to have enough mana to IT, PIF, accelerate and have hand disruption in the graveyard, avoiding Force, et al on the Tutor in the first place?
If you have chanted (gemstone mine), with Sea, LED, Volcanic, with Rite of Flame (Volcanic) and Dark Ritual (Sea) played out, cracking the LED for IT Hellbent, 6 Mana floating makes it impossible to make any headway. Play PIF, flashback Ritual and Rite, 5 mana, which is not enough for anything to be gotten with Tutor... With another land you can get to 10 storm, I guess...Turn 4 making all land drops and not dropping LED early to avoid hand destruction and not getting wastelanded. This seems only the best option if you have less than, say 9 life. In my limited experience, I haven't seen this scenario coming about often enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
John Cox
Wining with Ad Nauseam is like playing chicken with fast cars on a short road to a cliff. If you spend too much time building up acceleration you'll end up driving over the cliff.
This is one of the main reasons I play TES! It's so absurdly fast, you rarely spend too much time digging, unless you have the time to dig.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
I'll chalk it up to differences in play style then, I usually slow down when I play the deck to make sure I don't get hit with a surprise flutterstorm, or wasteland on a land that I really need. Even when I play belcher I'm happy to go off on turn 3, this is probably why I tend to get the hands that work with nicely with past in flames. I also think this is the main advantage of this deck over ANT Since ANT requires you to commit to the storm engines you have in the deck.
You also mention Diminishing returns a lot, that's a card I'm careful with because it can randomly screw you over. It can be great and do great things, but you have to be careful with it. A 'sure thing' like past in flames is something I prefer.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
I top 8'd the Jupiter Games NELC event yesterday, report to follow in my next article.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Nice finish Bryant. I saw you'r list in 6th good for you.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Congrats on the finish Bryant. I love the kid arguing with you over his deck being better than yours.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
That kid is retarded. Lets just cut real cantrips for cards that don't actually help find anything and cut Thoughtseize for a card that is just worse if you don't draw your other bad card and usually on par if you do. Sorry Elie, not the right call at all.
Not to mention Chant is the nut right now. All the Wastelands and Dazes are disappearing and all the Stifles and Spell Snares are flooding back, not to mention needing to Time Walk Reanimator.
If I didn't want to chuck my deck against the wall whenever I realized Burning Wish couldn't actually Tutor for a real Tendils win con (sorry Dim Ret, not cutting it) or when I Brainstormed into trash and got stuck without a fetch, I would straight up say TES was better than ANT now. As is, I've just taken the good parts of TES and added them to ANT (Chant main and EtW from the board).
Aside for not TES: For the record, Silence might be better than Chant if you don't run the 5C mana base. Not only is not targetting semi-relevant and WW near impossible to get without City/Mine, when your opponent complains mid-combo you get to shush them and say "Can't talk if you don't have a mouth".
(And don't call past statements into this. I would still rather be playing the 5 basic, 2 color deck with less fizzles in a meta of Dazes, Wastelands, and aggro decks that don't kill till 4. It just happens the format is now about conditional counters, control with real clocks, and combo decks that kill Storm on turn 2-3).
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AriLax
Aside for not TES: For the record, Silence might be better than Chant if you don't run the 5C mana base. Not only is not targetting semi-relevant and WW near impossible to get without City/Mine, when your opponent complains mid-combo you get to shush them and say "Can't talk if you don't have a mouth".
I don't know that much about the US metagame, but we decided to go with the playset of Silence and only three Chant for GP Amsterdam with Basic Plains, Tundra, Scrubland and four Petal in the deck as white manasources in our Doomsday list. That's due to the fact, that we couldn't really remember when we last paid the kicker cost on a Chant and that there are some decks out there, which use Leyline of Sanctity (Sneak Attack, Hive Mind), Misdirection (Reanimator) or Divert (thresh builds, High Tide builds). Looking at SCG lists, I also don't see that much aggro decks running around, so you might consider prioritizing Silence over Chant.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
flrn: Realistically, no one here does things like that at large events. Locally I know my meta wants Silence as it is heavy combo, light on non-Maverick aggro, and Leyline is common from Landstill/Maverick/Enchantress.
Outside that, I would rather have Chant. Across 4 SCGs and 2 GPs I think I've played against Leyline twice (both from the UW ETutor Counterbalance deck) and seen one person building a deck that even included Misdirection.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
flrn
I don't know that much about the US metagame, but we decided to go with the playset of Silence and only three Chant for GP Amsterdam with Basic Plains, Tundra, Scrubland and four Petal in the deck as white manasources in our Doomsday list.
Wasn't it 2nd tundra instead of scrubland ?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AriLax
Aside for not TES: For the record, Silence might be better than Chant if you don't run the 5C mana base. Not only is not targetting semi-relevant and WW near impossible to get without City/Mine, when your opponent complains mid-combo you get to shush them and say "Can't talk if you don't have a mouth".
Having your opponents say "I killllll you" every game gets annoying though.
I ran 3/2 in the GP in ANT so that I could infernal for either and both have had their upsides lately (kicker / not targetting).
Another very minor plus of 4 Silence, 3 Orim's Chant is that an opponent will pretty much always extirpate/therapy/MMage Chant before Silence.
On the topic of chants; why not play 7 with a rainbow manabase? I rarely find Duress better.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamieW89
Having your opponents say "I killllll you" every game gets annoying though.
I ran 3/2 in the GP in ANT so that I could infernal for either and both have had their upsides lately (kicker / not targetting).
Another very minor plus of 4
Silence, 3
Orim's Chant is that an opponent will pretty much always extirpate/therapy/MMage Chant before Silence.
On the topic of chants; why not play 7 with a rainbow manabase? I rarely find
Duress better.
It's important to diversify your hate. You won't always be playing against Stifle/Snare decks. Duress being proactive is very helpful at times.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Has the interaction between Leyline of Sanctity and Orim's Chant pushed anyone toward Silence as the primary chant effect? Given that Orim's Chant targets a player, it means it can be Misdirected and its dead when they have Leyline of Sanctity in play. While neither of these cards show up as frequently as some of the other hate cards out there, Leyline still sees a reasonable amount of play which makes it worth discussing.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fossil4182
Has the interaction between Leyline of Sanctity and Orim's Chant pushed anyone toward Silence as the primary chant effect? Given that Orim's Chant targets a player, it means it can be Misdirected and its dead when they have Leyline of Sanctity in play. While neither of these cards show up as frequently as some of the other hate cards out there, Leyline still sees a reasonable amount of play which makes it worth discussing.
What see's more play?
Leyline + Misdirection or Aggressive decks that you may need to Kicker against?
FWIW, at the GP: Columbus, twice in that event I Chanted with Kicker in order to win rounds.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
What see's more play?
Leyline + Misdirection or Aggressive decks that you may need to Kicker against?
FWIW, at the GP: Columbus, twice in that event I Chanted with Kicker in order to win rounds.
I'm not disputing that Chant kicked will win you a lot of games you wouldn't otherwise. However, I observed a player at my local metagame crush two chant storm decks playing a UW Stoneblade deck with a sideboard Leylines. My suggestion would be for a two/two split.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fossil4182
I'm not disputing that Chant kicked will win you a lot of games you wouldn't otherwise. However, I observed a player at my local metagame crush two chant storm decks playing a UW Stoneblade deck with a sideboard Leylines. My suggestion would be for a two/two split.
I've considered it. Ultimately, I don't believe that it'll matter very much.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Even if Chant is the default "better" card, Chant + Chant is worse than drawing Duress + Chant. The first Chant is great, but I would rather have Duresses than Chants beyond that.
1. If Chant sticks, it is easier to get B to add Storm/get hell bent by casting Duress than it is to get W.
2. Chant + Chant beating Force requires you to cast the two cards on turns you plan on going off. This means A) getting WW + mana to kill on a turn (harder than WB with Seas and Chant requires City or Gemstone tapping) or B) getting a 2 turn window to go off and not die. Duress is easy to sneak in on 2 to take Force and kill with Chant on 3 (or similar). Multiple Chant in general just aren't exciting EXCEPT in combo mirrors when you want to Time Walk Reanimator + stop Force or do fucked up stuff in mirror.
Also, diversify is relevant. Duress is better against Daze + Force, which is still sometimes a thing.
