Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by Mackan

I've been grinding with this on modo for a while now... I really like it. I guess most lists are about the same but I just wanted to point out how much I like Predict and Vedalken Shackles and would like your opinion too (Im biased towards those cards) :)

Without snapcaster mage, shardless agent, manlands or bloodbraid elf we are sometimes forced to burn a plow on something bad or play Terminus for little value, perhaps just to keep Jace Alive for a turn. Shackles solves that. Decay can be painful but I think it's worth it. Vedalken Shackles is why I run a whooping three volcanics and no basic mountain. There are also no ruins/karakas.

Predict is just ancestral recall vs anything but tempo (where it might require to much setup). The deck has so many bad cards g1 and Predict can also be like brainstorm 5-6. I like it over Ponder right now but cases can be made for both. It does not put more pressure on SDT like I first thought. Between jace, brainstorm and blindflips from CB I get to use it for good measure. Sometimes you can ruin someones tutor, sdt-drawing a card or just draw 2 when your opponent flips a delver.

ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Counterbalance
SORCERIES (6)
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus
INSTANTS (18)
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
2 Predict
4 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (4)
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
ARTIFACTS (6)
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles
LANDS (22)
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
5 Island
SIDEBOARD
1 Wear // Tear
1 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Meddling Mage
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle

I don't really like blood moon with Vedalken shackles but It's our best shot versus 12post and sometimes just win straight up vs I.E Jund.

Other things that might stand out;
No creatures maindeck. Without a critical mass of dorks I think there is no reason to run STP-targets G1. I miss clique a bit from time to time.

Spell Snare over Spell Pierce. Im still not convinced about Spell Pierce.

Grafdigger's cage over relic of progenitus. Stops GSZ and NO

Im pretty happy with maindeck but Im trying to get Pyroclasm or baneslayer angel in there to up my % versus aggro/swarm. Im also thinking about Det sphere or O-ring as I do run 1 E.tutor. Is it worth it versus show and tell? Isn't it just better to be 100% focused on not letting it resolve? Outside of the show and tell matchup I can hardly think of any situation where Im "happy" resolving a 3 mana removal. It's a catch all for Choke, needle and the like so Im not sure. I could cut Wear/tear for it. Thoughts?

Im something like ~30-3 in games and my losses have been to Jund and Esperblade. Lingering souls is a problem but I don't think it's common enough to warrant an inclusion of sulfur elemental in the board. Still good vs DnT but less flexible than i.e Pyroclasm.

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I saw a similar list 3-1 a MODO daily yesterday, was that you?

I like it, its reminiscent of the original UWx Countertop Walker version created by Hanni, which got me several strong finishes at my LGS.

If I were to cut a SB slot for Oblivion Ring I'd probably look at Meddling Mage. A singleton, instant speed, Disenchant effect is pretty mandatory. I'd also look into squeezing another piece of graveyard hate into the sideboard, so you have 4 graveyard slots, counting Tutor.

How's the red splash been? Is it really necessary?

Also, I can't help but notice that you have 0 MD answers to non-creature threats. Maybe move 1 Engineered Explosives to the main, instead of the 4th Terminus? O. Ring might also work, but I like EE better since it doubles as mass removal and avoids Decay. If you did that you might want to squeeze in a single Academy Ruins, I don't think it will hurt you Shackles plan in a conceivable way.

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Originally Posted by Gros

Hello everybody, i really don't understand why everybody is playing the RiP version of the deck, in which matchup does it helps? i tested it out a bit but i felt it like a pile of doing-nothings and i think it mulligans really bad in comparison to the standard version, than the combo and control matchups imho get worse.
Am i missing something?

I usually play this list for the standard version:

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
2 Glacial Fortress
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Academy Ruins

SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Wear_Tear
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Terminus

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Gives you game versus Deathblade (shuts down SCM and DRS), Shardless BUG (Shuts down Goyfs, DRS), RUG Delver (Shuts off Goyfs and Mongeese) Dredge and Reanimator. You're a bit softer to the combo decks because of a smaller number of counterspells and the Miracles mirror because of dead cards.

Hooray! thesource works again.

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Originally Posted by SageShadows

Gives you game versus Deathblade (shuts down SCM and DRS), Shardless BUG (Shuts down Goyfs, DRS), RUG Delver (Shuts off Goyfs and Mongeese) Dredge and Reanimator. You're a bit softer to the combo decks because of a smaller number of counterspells and the Miracles mirror because of dead cards.

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RIP is also very solid against ANT and can sometimes be a better t2 play against them than a blind Counterbalance.

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Originally Posted by The Treefolk Master

I saw a similar list 3-1 a MODO daily yesterday, was that you?

I like it, its reminiscent of the original UWx Countertop Walker version created by Hanni, which got me several strong finishes at my LGS.

If I were to cut a SB slot for Oblivion Ring I'd probably look at Meddling Mage. A singleton, instant speed, Disenchant effect is pretty mandatory. I'd also look into squeezing another piece of graveyard hate into the sideboard, so you have 4 graveyard slots, counting Tutor.

How's the red splash been? Is it really necessary?

Also, I can't help but notice that you have 0 MD answers to non-creature threats. Maybe move 1 Engineered Explosives to the main, instead of the 4th Terminus? O. Ring might also work, but I like EE better since it doubles as mass removal and avoids Decay. If you did that you might want to squeeze in a single Academy Ruins, I don't think it will hurt you Shackles plan in a conceivable way.

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Thanks for the input!

Yes it was me playing in that event. I played one today aswell (going 4-0).

I will continue to keep O-ring/detention sphere in mind when I play but I haven't missed them yet. I will make a list of non-creature permanents that are commonly played which the deck has problem with, both main and sideboard (and edit this post... maybe tomorrow).

I agree about the GY hate but I haven't seen much dredge lately and the other GY-based matchups I think are acceptable. I will test vs DRS and Canadian with another RIP.

I don't really like splashing in control even when it's almost free (with 8-9 fetches and 2-3 islands beeing duals). Missing landdrops or getting wastelanded is about the worst feeling ever so I was skeptical splashing at first.
Straight UW was ok (could even squeeze a few utility lands and colonnade in there!). A minor sideboard splash with black for Thoughtseze and Notion Thief felt unneeded and underwhelming compared to red for blasts.
With the new legend rule I think it's a must to fight opposing jaces with REB/Pyro. Pyroclasm has been a nice tool too. I haven't played much with it yet but pyroclasming 2-3 creatures and getting wastelanded have been totally fine.
I used the last list posted -1 Pithing Needle -1 Blood Moon for +2 pyroclasm.

double-post... pls delete.

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Originally Posted by Mackan

With the new legend rule I think it's a must to fight opposing jaces with REB/Pyro. Pyroclasm has been a nice tool too. I haven't played much with it yet but pyroclasming 2-3 creatures and getting wastelanded have been totally fine.

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I don't understand the pyroclasm argument at all. You could have just run more Terminus and/or Supreme Verdict. The only time pyroclasm would be better than above mentioned mass removal is under G. Teeg. For all other match-ups and instances, running red for mass removal just exposes yourself to wasteland.

Furthermore, the issue against shardless bug has Nothing to do with pyroclasm. You can mass removal with whatever weapon of choice you have, if shardless bug resolves an Ancestral Vision or a Jace, whatever card advantage you gained is gone. I have seen matches where I wiped the board many, many times. However, my CB kept getting Abrupt Decayed, eventually, BUG just recovers by abusing Cascade or jamming a Jace onto the board.

I admit, splashing red might be the necessarily evil against the Whatever-Tell variants. However, if you really want to fight decks running Jace and brainstorm, Notion Thief is still the better option.

It's better than both Terminus and Verdict simply because it can be played under a Teeg to kill a Teeg. Yeah, swords is an argument against it for my argument to play it, but its good for tokens, swarms of creatures, and it's not reliant on being your first draw of the turn like terminus.

-ABC

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

It's better than both Terminus and Verdict simply because it can be played under a Teeg to kill a Teeg. Yeah, swords is an argument against it for my argument to play it, but its good for tokens, swarms of creatures, and it's not reliant on being your first draw of the turn like terminus.

-ABC

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And you can actually play it to kill BOB before he draws a card. Not two turns after that when he has netted two cards and won the match.

Pyroclasm aside, the biggest attraction to red for me is Blood Moon.

If BUG can't answer it immediately or have Deathrites already in play, then they can't cast any more spells (except maybe a Jitte or Dismember).

Likewise for Jund, if they didn't prepare for it by fetching what few basics they have.

RUG can't cast much under a Blood Moon either; and so on.

Red blasts and other miscellaneous red hate is just icing on the cake, IMO.

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Originally Posted by matunos

Pyroclasm aside, the biggest attraction to red for me is Blood Moon.
If BUG can't answer it immediately or have Deathrites already in play, then they can't cast any more spells (except maybe a Jitte or Dismember).
Likewise for Jund, if they didn't prepare for it by fetching what few basics they have.
RUG can't cast much under a Blood Moon either; and so on.

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There's a danger in your argument. Sure, if you drop Blood Moon as early as turn 3, you can achieve your mentioned effect. However, if you drop it on turn 10, after goyf, after cascading, after jace, after basic lands have hit the table, how much impact can it possibly have? Now, you might not even have the correct land types yourself on turn 3, are you sure you want to voluntary give up your capability of breaking fetchland and look at library with Top by playing Blood Moon?

Sure, you might intend to run some volcanic just to use pyroclasm as extra mass removal. Not only it will not work against RUG Delver, it just make their Wasteland that much more powerful. Of course, feel free to stare at the pyroclasm in your hand, when creeping tarpit is beating you to death.

twndomn has a point here. I've considered Pyroclasm in Joe's(oarsman) list many times.
Arguments for doing so were using the redsplash already in the main, having extra cheap mass removal and a solid 2 for Counterbalance, which this deck kind of wants.
But in reality it is kind of lackluster. Hitting for 2 will not always clear the board, as beaters like Goyf or Knight will just not care about it. What they care about is the reason to waste you out of the game because you just threw away a fetchland for 1 card which is in fact underwhelming most of the time. Against Delverdecks it is as dead as it could be, as it requires to be played early to have an advantage over Terminus/Verdict. GL on not getting stifled turn 2 or Pierce'd/Daze'd. Sure you can wait for turn 5, but at this point a Goyf with at least an ass of 3 has emerged probably.
Against Maverick variants, Mother of Runes protecting Teeg from red sucks too. I dont see myself getting anywhere with 'Clasm..
It could be good versus Goblins and Weenie decks, but in my meta thats a minority.

To make another point about the mass-removals..
I've found myself having trouble with the singleton Supreme Verdict also. It seems really slow and vulnerable to discard.
When you open a hand with 4 lands + Verdict it doesn't seem like a good plan to me.
Sure, it is uncounterable, which seems appealing against half of the field, but it hasn't done much good for me on the other half lately.
Had a game against Dark Maverick last time where i faced down a Thrun with a lot of other dudes, and the only way I could have won this was finding entreat or a sweeper.
So i found myself the singleton Verdict instead of Terminus and Thrun wrecked me next turn.

If you are reading Joe, do you think going back to 4 Terminus might be better?

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Originally Posted by twndomn

There's a danger in your argument. Sure, if you drop Blood Moon as early as turn 3, you can achieve your mentioned effect. However, if you drop it on turn 10, after goyf, after cascading, after jace, after basic lands have hit the table, how much impact can it possibly have? Now, you might not even have the correct land types yourself on turn 3, are you sure you want to voluntary give up your capability of breaking fetchland and look at library with Top by playing Blood Moon?

Sure, you might intend to run some volcanic just to use pyroclasm as extra mass removal. Not only it will not work against RUG Delver, it just make their Wasteland that much more powerful. Of course, feel free to stare at the pyroclasm in your hand, when creeping tarpit is beating you to death.

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Shardless BUG doesn't run any basics.

Jund tends to run few basics, and they often don't fetch them against Miracles, unless they're expecting the Blood Moon. It's usually the only non-basics hate that Miracles offers.

Of course I never proposed Blood Moon as a card that can bring you back from way behind on the board. If you're facing down a Jace plus Goyf without some answers in your hand, then you have bigger concerns than locking
out their mana base, and of course keeping an ability to fetch is important there (also, FWIW, a red blast would probably be nice in that situation). But having cleared the board threats, Blood Moon can lock BUG out better than Counterbalance.

I haven't played (or advocated) Pyroclasm, but if I did, I wouldn't bring it in against RUG, or probably even BUG. Consider: BUG often runs Massacre from the board, so they're not exactly afraid of sweeping the board of x/2 creatures.

As for vulnerability to Wasteland, we're talking about a deck that plays around 6 basics and 9 fetches. If you're losing to Wasteland consistently with that mana base, you're doing it wrong.

Thosha, I like Supreme Verdict. The only deck I can think of that has discard and a special vulnerability to Verdict is BUG delver, and there isn't a ton of that going around right now as far as I can tell. If there was somehow room, I would run a second one before the 4th Terminus. In fact, supposing I was able to add removal to the 75 I think my priority list would approximate this (keep in mind that I came up with this list in about forty seconds).

Supreme Verdict
Moat
Humility
Swords to Plowshares
Terminus

If Sphere of Law counts as removal, it would be between Moat and Humility. You can probably tell from my choices that I am more concerned with tribal and delver decks than I am with Maverick. I do not think four mana is too much to pay for a powerful anti-agro card. But you can't run many of them, because you need the cheaper ones to keep you in a comfortable spot until you get the expensive one on the board.

I'm running the following list to decent local success. It's mainly designed to destroy RUG, Elves and random decks and that's what it does.

2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Rest in Peace
3 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Counterspell

5 Island
3 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta

SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 Counterbalance

Just make sure to keep enough win conditions in in matchups where you board out Jaces (RUG ie.). If there was a single card solution to make the bad Goblins matchup better, I would be open to suggestions. Everything else feels at least even. I guessainly because nobody plays those weird decks you apparently never win against here like 12 Post or Enchantress.

Hi there. I want to build this deck and I have a stupid question for you. How do you use Clique? It confuses me, I don't know if I should include it or not.

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Originally Posted by Ocean

Hi there. I want to build this deck and I have a stupid question for you. How do you use Clique? It confuses me, I don't know if I should include it or not.

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Here are some good plays with Vendilion Clique:

Play it to check if opponent can counter your important spell.
Play it to kill opponents jace/liliana when they pass turn etc
Play it to prevent Aether Vial from putting in shizznizz
Play it to put preasure on opponent
Play it in response to combodecks going off
Play it to get rid of cards in your own hand
Play it to block Nimble Mongoose

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Originally Posted by L-Luck

If there was a single card solution to make the bad Goblins matchup better, I would be open to suggestions. Everything else feels at least even. I guessainly because nobody plays those weird decks you apparently never win against here like 12 Post or Enchantress.

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Lately I've been fine against Goblins with RIP/Helm and 2 Entreat MD and able to board into a 3rd Entreat. This deck doesn't have trouble slowing Goblins down for a time, but you will almost certainly lose the long game. I've had the most success with Entreat, but sometimes you are able to get a fast Helm online. I don't like Humility much here since it nullifys Entreat. Moat is good against them, and has the plus side of shutting down almost all of BUG's threats (unfortunately BUG likes bringing Golgari Charm against us).

12-Post is beatable with Blood Moon. Get an early CBTop to slow down their land tutoring and then be ready to protect Blood Moon against bounce.

Enchantress is actually pretty easy. They can't beat Jace outside of tutoring an ORing. Spell Pierce and Counterbalance are both amazing against them. Treat them like the slow combo deck they are.

The Pyroclasm argument is silly - it is good because you can cast it early without a setup card. Neither Verdict no Terminus can do this.

What do you guys think about the Death and Taxes match-up? I went against two yesterday and one a few weeks back. I've succeeded in drawing the first two and getting face stomped in the win and in yesterday. I don't know if I'm just playing poorly or if it's a genuinely hard match-up. Non-pyroclasm related thoughts? =P