Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
davelin
Lem,
I agree with everything you say here but your last statement has me thinking more since this hasn't been how I've been using it. If I'm in a situation where I can DimRet turn 1 or 2, then I'm usually casting EtW for 8-10 goblins. I've been using DimRet more in situations like this i.e. mid-game, my hand has been whittled down because of counters/discard/mis-firing earlier. Can you clarify more on situations where you would want to DimRet turn 1 or 2 instead of firing off some goblins or crafting our hand for another turn?
Taken from Bryants OP:
Quote:
Diminishing Returns is there as an efficient way of obtaining a new hand, it's not a "Hail Mary Pass" as some storm players believe it to be. It's actually best to not cast the spell the last possible turn before "combo-ing off", because well, there's always a chance you don't win off of it. If Diminishing Returns is cast in the early game and it’s not successful it's not as backbreaking as when cast on the last possible turn. There is always chance of winning on the following turn and the probability is dramatically increased.
Greetings Chris
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
davelin
Lem,
I agree with everything you say here but your last statement has me thinking more since this hasn't been how I've been using it. If I'm in a situation where I can DimRet turn 1 or 2, then I'm usually casting EtW for 8-10 goblins. I've been using DimRet more in situations like this i.e. mid-game, my hand has been whittled down because of counters/discard/mis-firing earlier. Can you clarify more on situations where you would want to DimRet turn 1 or 2 instead of firing off some goblins or crafting our hand for another turn?
I gladly elaborate. While grabbing EtW with a turn 1 or 2 Wish is often successful, there are enough matchups in which doing this equals punting the game:
- being on the draw against an opponent starting with Bayou and DRS. You cast EtW just to see your Army fall victim to Deed or Maelstrom Pulse!
- against RUG/BUG decks which bring in Engineered Explosives against your Goblins and mana artifacts.
- Empty for 8 Goblins just to see your opponent casting Show&Tell/Past in Flames in the turns you gave him
- Storm count is too low to create enough Goblins to Race your opponents clock (see turn 2 SFM -> Batterskull)
- to negate the negative effect of a mulligan or a Chrome Mox.
- screw other decks on their starting 7 if you play first (drawing them into a no-lander)
- etc.
just a few examples from the top of my head. Casting DR as a panic button often gives your opponent more nails for your casket than helping you
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
TES in Manila
4 August 2013
Duel for Duals
BCI Makati
http://mtglegacy.freeforums.org/tjb-...i-mkti-t8.html
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Hello fellow stormers! Ran into the following situation while playing/testing online. Maybe it's a straight-forward situation but wanted to get your thoughts.
Situation - Game 3 against Junk. Lost a close game one against a T2 Thalia and an active Batterskull T4. Won game 2 off of the back of a T2 Ad Nauseum. I've sided in my Chains/Decays for Silence and the maindeck EtW. It's the beginning of my T2 on the draw and here is the board-state:
Him -
19 life
Tapped Deathrite Shaman
Untapped Phyrexian Revoker (naming LED)
2 tapped duals
1 fetchland in graveyard
From a T1 Probe we know all of his cards in hand -
Jitte
Knight of the Reliquary
Stoneforge Mystic
Surgical Extraction
Our side -
18 life
City of Brass
Cards in hand -
2x Lotus Petal
Infernal Tutor
Burning Wish
Dark Ritual
Decay
Volcanic Island
Ponder (just drawn for the turn)
We obviously aren't in a state where we have to do anything necessarily this turn, but with our opponent's ability to get down and equip a Jitte or cast Mystic retrieving Batterskull, we probably need to start moving soon. What would you do here? Options seem to include -
1) Use Wish and mana in hand to generate 10 goblins
2) Use Ponder to setup future turns and Decay the Revoker (or Mystic?) depending on what we find
3) Use Wish to DimRet (unlikely but still an option)
Thanks in advance!
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
paeng4983
TES in Manila
4 August 2013
Duel for Duals
BCI Makati
http://mtglegacy.freeforums.org/tjb-...i-mkti-t8.html
RD_1 Death and Taxes
G1: Opened the game with a bunch of cantrips and mana accelerators in my initial seven. He began the game with a Mother of runes, then turn two Stoneforge Mystic fetching a foil Batterskull and turn three 2nd Mother of Runes. On my first three turns, all I did was sculpt my hand with my cantrips and on my 4th turn, I was able summoned 16 naughty goblin.
Stopped reading here. Saw more mistakes while quickly browsing through the rest of the Report aka dropping LED's against a deck with Deed's/Pulse (without a chance to go off soon), not going for EtW turn 1 in R7 G1 and many more
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Went for goblins despite knowing your opponent had the skull in hand? You need an astronomical number of goblins to beat active skull. And at that point tendrils just kills him
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Davelin, I think going for the natural Tendrils is within reach if you play Volcanic and Infernal for Dark Ritual to bait the surgical extraction for him going to 17 and use your hand, the drawn card and a card off your Ponder to Wish for a lethal Tendrils for 18
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Davelin, I think going for the natural Tendrils is within reach if you play Volcanic and Infernal for Dark Ritual to bait the surgical extraction for him going to 17 and use your hand, the drawn card and a card off your Ponder to Wish for a lethal Tendrils for 18
Unfortunately can't ponder, tutor and Wish for tendrils this turn unless ponder brings mox or petal or ritual. Otherwise can only definitively tendrils for 14 and even a surgical doesn't get there this turn.
edit: but agree that pondering first is probably the right play
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Royce Walter
I'd probably just play volc, ponder. If you hit hand disruption + LED you can play petal, petal, decay the revoker, untap, take the surgical, IGG loop, which is the most straightforward path. If not you really just need to find one blue mana source to returns between the random card from ponder and your draw step, and even if you miss there you still have a lot of options.
Did you pay mana for the probe and then he attacked you with deathrite? I was trying to figure out why the deathrite was tapped and that makes the most sense.
Probe for life and one attack, I should be at 17 life, not 18.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
davelin
Unfortunately can't ponder, tutor and Wish for tendrils this turn unless ponder brings mox or petal or ritual. Otherwise can only definitively tendrils for 14 and even a surgical doesn't get there this turn.
edit: but agree that pondering first is probably the right play
Nope, Tutor for another Ritual and pass. Next turn Ponder to see one more card than casting Ponder the turn you drew it.
IGG is not an option with DRS in play and a surgical extraction in his hand. I gladly feed his surgical with an infernal.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Nope, Tutor for another Ritual and pass. Next turn Ponder to see one more card than casting Ponder the turn you drew it.
IGG is not an option with DRS in play and a surgical extraction in his hand. I gladly feed his surgical with an infernal.
Interesting. With IT likely to be targetted with Surgical, are you counting on DimRet to provide enough storm since cannot tutor for AN anymore and racing with Goblins seem unlikely?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
davelin
Interesting. With IT likely to be targetted with Surgical, are you counting on DimRet to provide enough storm since cannot tutor for AN anymore and racing with Goblins seem unlikely?
Having City and Volcanic for mana you can chain in any Order:
Petal
Petal
Ponder
Card drawn of Ponder
Card drawn for turn
Ritual
Ritual (got via Infernal the previous turn)
Burning Wish
Tendrils
I count 9 storm; if the Infernal is tempting enough to be extracted your opponent is at 17 life aka dead. All you need here is to draw a mana Source for turn or your Ponder. Even a Probe would be golden for the stormcount. You might even provoke the surgical in your own drawphase which would help you even more!
If everything goes wrong you can still cast Returns but killing your opponent here with a natural count of 9 or 10 is far from being unlikely.
Neither Ad Nauseam or EtW are options here. Focus on a natural spellchain with your Wish in hand
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Hey everyone,
I'm pretty new to legacy, the first deck I built was
Belcher, because the idea of winning on turn one was awesome. But having played it quite a bit, it's not fun to almost automatically lose to FOW. Well anyway, I haven't played in almost 2 months(thanks marine corps!), but I get back this Friday, and my friends told me there is a legacy tournament on Sunday. Well, I plan on putting a new deck together this weekend, to play on Sunday. Either UWR tempo, or TES. Now I understand TES, is not a deck you can pick up and expect results from without playing a lot of games with it first. But I understand the basics, so if I do decide to build this deck this weekend, I'll post my results. I have a lot of the deck already, and it shouldn't be too hard to acquire the rest!
Anyway, TES appealed to me, because of how fast it can win, but also, because it doesn't just fold to blue decks and that it is a challenge to play correctly(perhaps the biggest attraction to it, I love a challenge) But like I said, I'll post my results if I decide to build the deck! Not expecting to do well, with building the deck and then playing it in a tournament a few days later, but oh well!
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Hey everyone,
I'm a long-time storm player, having played storm combo in one form or another across all formats since the Storm mechanic was invented. I'm trying to learn all about the different kinds of storm combo decks in Legacy (I've played a lot of Legacy but I'm only now really seriously thinking about playing a Storm deck), so naturally I'm looking into TES vs. ANT. I don't find some of the things said at the beginning of this thread about the comparison between the two decks to be completely accurate, so I was wondering if someone could straighten me out. Some of the things I'm unsure about:
1) Is the speed difference between TES and ANT relevant? From my playing against them, they seem to be quite close. TES is, of course, about half a turn faster, but how often is that half turn going to be the difference between winning and losing?
2) It's often said that TES is a better Ad Nauseam deck, citing both Chrome Moxes and a lower average CMC. The first part is pretty self-evident (though more on that in a minute) but the second is only true by the slimmest of margins. I ran the CMC and the only difference between the two decks is that ANT has a Past in Flames (4 mana) where TES has a 1-mana card. That is literally the only difference (looking strictly at CMC) between the two decks. That's not really a big enough difference that I'm comfortable citing it as a plus.
3) With Chrome Mox, it seems like the mana base is another point of contention, but to my eyes, the only differences between the two decks is that TES is running 4 more 5-color Lands and 3 Chrome Moxes for ANT's 4 more Fetchlands and 3 basic lands. The Chrome Mox vs. Basic Land seems to be choosing speed over stability and the 5-color lands seems to be a concession to the nature of the deck (being more heavily-5-color) vs the added stability of Brainstorm and Ponder with more fetchlands and the slight deck-thinning that happens with more fetches. Chrome Mox is way, way better off of Ad Nauseam, but basic lands are way, way better in the opening hand (in general). It seems like it's mostly a question of winning big (Chrome Moxes) vs winning small (basic lands). If the main difference there is stability vs speed, the question is again, is that half-turn worth of speed worth hurting consistency?
4) Colors. This is the biggest difference. As Bryant said in the first post, TES is a 5 color deck where ANT is basically a 2 color deck that splashes two other colors. I think the key here is that that's not a negative, as he seems to think. ANT can operate perfectly well off of just two colors, whereas with TES, most of the protection and half of the business spells and rituals are neither blue nor black, which means that it has to run a 5-color mana base to work. TES seems to need 3 colors just to function, vs. ANT's 2. The ratio of card colors to cards that can cast those colors is way, way better in ANT than in TES which leads to a lot more mana troubles in TES than in ANT. I'm not saying at all that it's important that ANT can be Wasteland proof, but just that ANT's mana base is stronger in a fundamental way than TES. Again, the tradeoff in consistency is for half-a-turn of speed, so the question is, is it worth it? The first post says that you should be preparing for being able to cast all of your spells in the first few turns rather than on late-game consistency, which I agree with, but it seems that ANT can do both (as red mana isn't needed before you win, if at all) whereas TES has a more difficult time.
I'm not really a supporter or a detractor of either deck, I'm just trying to pick one over the other and those were some reasons stated by Bryant in the first post that just didn't seem relevant (or in some cases, true) for choosing TES over ANT. If I'm way off on one or several of my ideas about TES, I apologize, because while I know a lot about storm in general, I don't know all that much about TES specifically. I'd be excited to hear any thoughts on my analysis.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Also every rite of flame you flip in TES is a cabal ritual in ANT. chrome mox allows you to go for AN with no mana floating and still win that turn. Also thanks to rite of flame and chrome moxen, TES has a decent chance of just going belcher mode and just making like 12 goblins on turn one
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
Also every rite of flame you flip in TES is a cabal ritual in ANT. chrome mox allows you to go for AN with no mana floating and still win that turn. Also thanks to rite of flame and chrome moxen, TES has a decent chance of just going belcher mode and just making like 12 goblins on turn one
Yes, but every Burning Wish you flip with TES is a Preordain with ANT. It's true that you can go for Ad Nauseam with no mana floating, but I think we can all agree that that's not the optimal situation. In ANT, Cabal Ritual is almost always for a Black Lotus's amount of mana (due to the extra Fetchlands and the greater number of cantrips), whereas the first Rite of Flame is always only as good as an un-thresholded Cabal Ritual, and you don't reach threshold-level of efficiency until the third one. The main difference is, when you flip a Cabal Ritual in ANT, it's much more likely to be castable since you're likely floating black mana off of the Ad Nauseam, whereas with TES you have to float at least black and red because you don't know which rituals you're going to hit on your Ad Nauseam. Those all seem like negatives.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
benthetenor
Yes, but every Burning Wish you flip with TES is a Preordain with ANT. It's true that you can go for Ad Nauseam with no mana floating, but I think we can all agree that that's not the optimal situation. In ANT, Cabal Ritual is almost always for a Black Lotus's amount of mana (due to the extra Fetchlands and the greater number of cantrips), whereas the first Rite of Flame is always only as good as an un-thresholded Cabal Ritual, and you don't reach threshold-level of efficiency until the third one. The main difference is, when you flip a Cabal Ritual in ANT, it's much more likely to be castable since you're likely floating black mana off of the Ad Nauseam, whereas with TES you have to float at least black and red because you don't know which rituals you're going to hit on your Ad Nauseam. Those all seem like negatives.
The way it actually works is you Ad Nauseam with nothing floating from 14+ life and win most of the time. Because you don't need anything floating, Ad Nauseam is actually a 5 mana spell, unlike ANT, so Rite of Flame not adding as much mana isn't a big deal (and helps with Wishing for red things). A pretty common line is Infernal Tutoring for another Rite of Flame, so it gets up to Cabal Ritual levels more than you might think.
About Ad Nauseam specifically, look in my sig for an excel worksheet with some analysis on the different storm variants. The conclusion I came to was that while the average CMC is "only" 0.10 different between ANT and TES, the consistency is way higher. There's fewer big swings so you on average can go deeper.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
benthetenor
2) It's often said that TES is a better Ad Nauseam deck, citing both Chrome Moxes and a lower average CMC. The first part is pretty self-evident (though more on that in a minute) but the second is only true by the slimmest of margins. I ran the CMC and the only difference between the two decks is that ANT has a Past in Flames (4 mana) where TES has a 1-mana card. That is literally the only difference (looking strictly at CMC) between the two decks. That's not really a big enough difference that I'm comfortable citing it as a plus.
TES is also a better AN deck because of higher business density and therefore doesn't need to go necessarily as deep. ANT usually needs to draw the Tendrils or IT + LED in order to finish after a AN, while TES has Wish as a non-conditional tutor to get Tendrils from the board.
