Would you still run Leylines ? Or cut them in Favor of Nevermore, Stony Silence, Rule of Law, ... or what ever ?
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Would you still run Leylines ? Or cut them in Favor of Nevermore, Stony Silence, Rule of Law, ... or what ever ?
Has anyone tested the High Tide matchup much yet? We've been testing it a bit, and so far the only games that Enchantress has won have been off the back of Double Grove + a hate card, be it Nevermore, Rule of Law, double Halos naming Brain Freeze and Blue Sun's Zenith. Has anyone found a reliable way to win with only a single Grove?
I've been playing the High Tide side, but a single grove and Rule of Law or Nevermore or something like that really hasn't been that big of a deal, because I can pretty easily bounce the grove and the hate card, and then go off, because Enchantress puts absolutely no clock on me, so I can sculpt the perfect hand as long as they don't get double grove.
I would guess that the only feasible way to beat High Tide is to flip the table. That's purely theory though...
Heh. Well, I don't think there's any way to make it a good matchup, but there are 4 players at my shop who have Candelabras, so I assume there will be a lot of High Tide, which means a sideboard plan is necessary, even if I can't make the matchup good, I want to at least have a plan.
J
Heh. Well, I don't think there's any way to make it a good matchup, but there are 4 players at my shop who have Candelabras, so I assume there will be a lot of High Tide, which means a sideboard plan is necessary, even if I can't make the matchup good, I want to at least have a plan.
J
Could Root Maze+Choke be a viable option? Just brainstorming here.
I'm not certain you could actually set it up. Choke is actually not awful, since they actually tap out pretty regularly early on, so if you can land a choke while they have 2 or 3 tapped lands, it might make the difference in giving you time to set up an actual kill. Root Maze, on the other hand, has such limited utility if you don't have Choke down that I'm not sure it's really worth it.
It'd be pretty cool if you pulled it off though
No. Combo is never going to be favorable. The best option I could think of would be splash one Trop and run In the Eye of Chaos in the side, but IMO not worth it since if combo is heavily played you are better off with a different deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau
Did you all see the list that made 9th place in the last SCG Open? Pretty standard, but I still ask myself - why moxes?
On the feature match they had with the enchantress player, the only thing Mox did was force him to sacrifice a Confinement, where Exploration would've won him the game a couple turns earlier. That alone is reason enough not to run any Moxes. The few tmes it might give you a turn 1 Argothian is not worth the dead weight during the rest of the game, every game.
I actually tried and tested them a while ago and did find them awful, but people keep on playing them so I think there must be something I haven't noticed. What is it?
He also plays Shusher but no GSZ. I'm not a fan of Shusher in enchantress, but if you're playing them, a couple of GSZ would make sense, no?
edit: link to the decklist http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=41105
3 Sterling groove, tutors in the side and mox main deck. It is at least curious.maybe he tested very very well the list and felt comfortable with it.
If you land Leyline of Sanctity pre-game, the High Tide player has to bounce Grove first. Sometimes that can buy you enough time to win out.
I remember when I played this deck a lot My favourite out to combo was turn 2 solitary confinement, discard some wheels of sun and moon and dovescape into replenish ^^. But such awesome hands are not always possible :). I do think that the addition of nevermore to the deck makes it much stronger against 'midrange' combo (ANT and Spring tide et al). I managed to get up to around 50/50 postboard by bringing in 2 runed halo and 3 nevermores (overkill I know, but I wanted to know how good they were...) which means with a bit of luck you might be able to sneak a match against storm. To be honest, I was going to dust this deck off (its been my baby since Urza's :)) as I think its pretty well placed in the meta. And ideas on fighting re-animater/non-storm combo anyone? Above and beyond the karakas/lignify/o-ring and hope they show 'n' tell. Ta!
The Spanish Tunnel King
One of the answers you said yourself already -Wheel of Sun and Moon. The other one is the always awesome Ground Seal.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spanish Tunnel King
Nevermore is a great addition to Enchantress. I've never quit playing with one Null Chamber in my sideboard, now I can finally replace it with something more up-to-date.
Yeah that was me. Truth be told I was hoping MM wouldn't be banned in which case I'm pretty sure I would have easily made top 8. Hell I should have anyways since I was the only X-1-1 not to make it, oh well. This was the deck I tested minus of course Nevermore and Stoney Silence to eat alive UW Mystics and NO RUGs for free all day.Quote:
Originally Posted by caiomarcos
Moxes sometimes helped me power out a turn faster or drop a turn 1 Enchantress which is always good. Yeah sometimes they suck, but usually by that point it doesn't matter. I mean in the UW Mystic feature match I whiffed like 5 times in a row and had a hand full of non chants, luckily Guile saved my ass by making sure I wouldn't whiff again. Both games were 1 land mulls to 6 which I ended up winning easily because I had Guile.
Shusher >>>>> Countertop. What more can I say? With Counterbalance back in the format I wouldn't show up with less than 3 of these guys in the board. GSZ sucks. Yeah it's "Enchantress #9" but Guile is already Enchantress #9-11. GSZ is just bad, if you aren't already running 3x Guile you are doing it wrong.
Blood Moon was ass all day. I expected more Team America.
Yeah, I remember packing two null chambers in the side for a while. For me it was just like rule of law. It would save your life and then come back and bite you later on :). To be honest, I don't think either of those is a good out to re-animator. Entomb being a one mana instant means that it can always get out underneath a wheel of sun and moon (I don't run mox/ESG for acceleration) and exhume doesn't target, so as much as I love ground seal (and I do :)) it doesn't really seem to cut it. I know they don't ALWAYS have the right combination to play around the hate but with all those cantrips, they seem to more often than not... Also, it seems that G1 decking them with Jin-Gitaxis seems like an actual valid win-con, which I don't really want to have to give up... Maybe go to the dark side and play some.... ARTEFACT graveyard hate? (gasp)... I don't really know still.Quote:
Originally Posted by caiomarcos
The Spanish Tunnel King
Congrats on your finish! I was rooting for Enchantress the whole time!Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
Good to read your take on Mox. It's exactly what I think but I draw a different conlusion from the same analysis, so I don't play them in my list.
Better still is to see you calling GSZ crap even thou you play Shusher, because having shusher as a target is one of the most used arguments to play GSZ and you say it's not worth it even then.
Agree 100% on Guile! It's a winner by itself but most opponents don't realize that, so it's never countered, never discarded, never taken care of.
Why would a metagame full of MM be a better one to play Enchantress? Free counters to acceleration and Guiles does not seem to make things easier.
Dou you plan writing a report? I think a 9th place deserves one!
Decking Reanimator G1 should never really happen since they can just easily animate up another Jin to deal with that problem. You are very right in that Wheel is a not so spectacular form of grave hate (though it is quite excellent against Dredge, but Elephant Grass and co. already probably do a good enough job) against Reanimator, and Ground Seal really isn't any better. I would indeed recommend trying out artifact forms of grave hate in Crypt and Relic if you wanted to specifically attack the Reanimator matchup (favoring Crypt) with graveyard removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spanish Tunnel King
Yeah decking anyone with Enchantress seems shaky at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau
Wheel is not the best graveyard hate in the game for sure but it is one of the best options for us for a variety of reasons. Wheel is versatile beyond just being GY Hate. It comes in vs any deck that seeks to abuse the GY examples: Loam, Reanimator, Dredge, and if they don't have anything relevant in the GY it can shut them down until they can remove Wheel. Even if they do have a relevant GY wheel can keep things from getting out of hand then a timely Crypt (and if you run 2x Tutors which I highly recommend, not hard to find) can put them back to square 1 in a bad spot. Beyond GY hate though it is also mill hate. Never forget the power of Wheel targeting yourself vs. Painter, High Tide, whatever. True story, I once won the Enchantress mirror because we both locked down behind Confinements and I let my Confinement go and dropped Wheel targeting myself then Replenished.
Ground Seal is fine. Granted not my favorite card in the SB but it stops Dread Return vs. Dredge which is often enough (Iona is a pain to deal with everything else is simple) and I usually bring it in if I expect Extirpate, because Extirpate my Enchantresses is a bitch and Seal cantrips anyways worst case.
Back when Reanimator was popular the 1st time I ran extra Karakas in the SB for a while but IDK if that's a good call since the deck has changed so much since then. Tormod's Crypt is a must have IMO, it fits well with the 2x Tutor board which I think is the right call. Not only does it give you lots of reach for silver bullets vs. combo but it makes aggro without blue almost a sure thing if you play it 100% correctly (easier said than done, but yes I did win from a mull to 4 vs. a strong Zoo hand).
I've been back and forth so much on Mox I don't even know what to tell you. All I can say for sure is I've tested and ran it with and without for 0x -3x and 2x feels right to me. If you do run Mox 2x is the right call, 2x or 0x. It's not only good early game, it often lets you power out that little bit extra on the "go nuts" turn before you win which often means the difference between winning next turn and almost winning next turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by caiomarcos
I've been running Shusher long before GSZ was even a card. Shusher beats Counterbalance and other hard control decks, that's all he does and that's all he needs to do. He does it well and I can't think of a better card vs. control so I'll keep running him until for whatever reason a better card comes along. GSZ sucks ass. All it ever is is enchantress #9. 3x Mirri's Guile and 8x Chantress is enough, adding another Enchantress is usually too much. If you aren't running exactly 3x Mirri's Guile you are doing Enchantress wrong. Just trust me on that, I didn't arrive at this list by accident I've run many possible configurations on the deck over the past 2 years and I consider most of my choices to be optimal only as a result of relentless testing and tweaking and retesting.
Mirri's Guile should almost never be countered. Granted it would have won my opponent the game once or twice but given the insane number of absolute must counter cards in this deck the opponent is usually better served saving counters for Enchantress or Moat or Confinement. When MM was in the format I could definitely see countering Guile with that but sans-Misstep it's usually a waste of a counter.
If MM is in the format I would have easily top 8'd because combo doesn't exist with MM. Combo is really my only terrible matchup. With no MM Merfolk is much harder, because they have Dazes or Pierces over Missteps to counter things like Moat or turn 2 Enchantress, with MM they usually only have 4x counters vs. anything except ramp, guile, and grass, all of which are throwaways compared to Chantresses and Moats/Confinements. Then with MM 25% of the format is NO RUG/UW Mystic which I absolutely eat alive for free. Feel free to test if you don't believe me, but when 9x cards in my deck completely negate attacking with Progen and germ tokens and they have 4x answers vs. my 2x Moats, trust me I own them for free. With MM in the format I was about 7-0-1 vs. UW Mystic, then I think I picked up another 3 easy W's this weekend, so overall not a matchup I ever expect to lose.
Long story short though MM means no combo and 4x less spots for counters relevant vs. the most powerful spells in my deck. Oh well, of course for whatever reason I didn't play Enchantress the one good SCG chance I had while MM was legal and all I lost to was UW Mystic all day.
I concur that a MM environment was good for Enchantress. The only major problem was the printing of Jin-Gitaxias. I have had success with Enchantress in many different environments, so I will run the deck whenever the field appears to be favorable.
I arrived at the same conclusion on Chrome Mox. The only time I would play more is if I was running the deck in a meta heavy with combo and Rishadan Ports. Exploration is good when you're going off, but it's not as good overall as some other 1cc enchantments, namely, Mirri's Guile or Carpet of Flowers.
An idea against Reanimator is to run Crop Rotation to find your Karakas. Crop Rotation is always good an Enchantress; the deck always needs more mana and Crop Rotation can always be mana by sacrificing a tapped Serra's Sanctum for an untapped one.