[DTB] Vial Goblins

Caverns are incredible. Period. Here's why I run them.

1. No other deck in the format runs them, so the drawback of being legendary is pretty nonexistant.

2. Goblins is at its weakest on the draw, and this problem was made worse with the nerfing of Mogg Fanatic. Caverns lets Goblins have a fighting shot against decks like even Zoo on the draw. It allows for turn one Weirding, turn one Mogg War Marshal, turn one Lackey/Vial in conjunction. More importantly, it makes the point where you go ridiculous happen one turn sooner.

3. I can afford to have the two lands that produce colorless because I don't run Rishadan Port. Rishadan Port is just awful in most matchups. The format's too fast for a deck as slow as Goblins to be spending two mana to keep the opponent off of 1. Plus, one of Port's finest points was that Goblins once didn't have a lot else to do with two mana, and buying the time at that point was a huge key to success. Now, my list has sixteen things to do with two mana (Driver, War Marshal, Wedirding, Cycle an Incinerator.)

Test Caverns out. Once you get the hang of what to pitch to it, you'll love it.

What about Cabal Slaver? I know its not efficient or particularly a Goblin, but disruption is always great in my book.

Cabal Slaver, along with Cover of Darkness, have been cards that I've been tinkering around with since the format was created. The long and the short of it is that they just don't play out nearly as well as they should.

Slaver might be better with Mogg War Marshal, but I somehow doubt he'll warrant play. Try him out in the board's flex slots though.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Cabal Slaver, along with Cover of Darkness, have been cards that I've been tinkering around with since the format was created. The long and the short of it is that they just don't play out nearly as well as they should.

Slaver might be better with Mogg War Marshal, but I somehow doubt he'll warrant play. Try him out in the board's flex slots though.

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I've also been testing Slaver, and one of my major problems with him is that he is not a goblin. I know this might not be much, but it makes life a pain when you can't Matron for him, Ringleader flips are useless, he doesn't have enough synergy with the rest of the deck, etc.

Don't get me wrong, Slaver might be good in some builds of the deck, but I have tried him, and he just doesn't work for me.

Cover of Darkness seems better, since it can make Lackey conect Turn2, being 2cc, but I don´t know if neither are worth it.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Cover of Darkness seems better, since it can make Lackey conect Turn2, being 2cc, but I don´t know if neither are worth it.

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Cover was better when Goblins could just outrace things. Goblins doesn't do that as well anymore. It kind of needs a Lackey to connect to do it. If it doesn't get the Lackey, it has to play a controlling role for two or three turns, then just vomit up 600 little red men and win. It's always been like this, but now the rest of the format's faster, so it's harder to just occasionally go aggro with weaker Goblins.

How has the new lord been in testing ?

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

then just vomit up 600 little red men and win.

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Goblins are green! :p

I've been trying caverns and i liked it over rishadan ports also, speeds the deck to get 3cc online faster than ever when we are on the draw. I'll continue with it.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

3. I can afford to have the two lands that produce colorless because I don't run Rishadan Port. Rishadan Port is just awful in most matchups. The format's too fast for a deck as slow as Goblins to be spending two mana to keep the opponent off of 1. Plus, one of Port's finest points was that Goblins once didn't have a lot else to do with two mana, and buying the time at that point was a huge key to success. Now, my list has sixteen things to do with two mana (Driver, War Marshal, Wedirding, Cycle an Incinerator.)

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I've won so many games on the back of Rishadan Port that I really need to put some question marks with this statement. I think the main strength of Goblins is that it plays a strong aggro role while still being disrupting the opponents gameplan with ports and wastelands. Remove these control elements and you just have an aggro deck that is typically worse then Zoo.

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Originally Posted by Nessaja

I've won so many games on the back of Rishadan Port that I really need to put some question marks with this statement. I think the main strength of Goblins is that it plays a strong aggro role while still being disrupting the opponents gameplan with ports and wastelands. Remove these control elements and you just have an aggro deck that is typically worse then Zoo.

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I tend to agree with this. Keeping our opponents off of a color or delaying their plans for a turn or two can create an enormous tempo boost for us. I am currently playing mono-red with 4 waste, 4 port, 1 cavern, 14 mountain.

In Rb version, 4 Wastes, 3 Ports, 2 Caverns, 4 Badlands, 6 Fetches and 4 Mountains have been working preety nicely. Never had a problem.
I will not be cutting Port so soon. It simply WIN matches. And it is very good WITH Caverns!

Okay, first off, I'll concede that in Mono Red, you probably should run Port. It's too difficult for an opponent to keep you off of colored mana when you run all basics for that to be a factor.

Secondly, all I'm seeing about Port is meaningless hyperbole. Saying Port wins games and creates tempo boosts doesn't indicate how it actually does either one of these thing.

Let's start with a fundamental understanding of Port. Port costs two mana to use: The one you spend to activate it, and the one you aren't able to draw from Port because you're using its other ability. Port denies your opponent of one mana if and only if they can't spend the mana on an instant or activated ability. This, in a vacuum, is not a tempo boost. This is a tempo loss.

To gain tempo from Port, you need to be drawing a significant advantage by stalling for time, which Goblins admittedly does. But Goblins only does so when either it has an Aether Vial that's building up counters, or it has a relatively pressure-free board and is playing an opponent that, like most, has a worse long game than Goblins.

Now. Of everything in the DTB forum, the Landstills are probably the only time where Port is undisputably great. Against Tempo Thresh if you're mono-red, they can be useful also, keeping opponents off of either Pyroclasm or Tarmogoyf in select situations. They will also be useful on occasion against anything that's struggling to draw land.

Now. Weigh that against the drawbacks. Every time you're using Waste/Port or Port/Port to tap a land down, it could be cycling Gempalm, playing Piledriver, playing Mogg War Marshal, or if you're RB, playing Warren Weirding. And every time you hit Mountain/Waste/Port, you have to factor in that if there's a Chief in your hand, you could be playing him. You also mulligan more hands that start without red sources. You also have less explosive power with 4 mana on the board, where it's a lot more likely you won't be able to play Warchief/Any 2-drop on the same turn.

The drawbacks of it just don't make it worth it for me in 2-color. I'd much rather have my 18 red sources and be more consistent and run a hair less in the mana denial department.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Okay, first off, I'll concede that in Mono Red, you probably should run Port. It's too difficult for an opponent to keep you off of colored mana when you run all basics for that to be a factor.

Secondly, all I'm seeing about Port is meaningless hyperbole. Saying Port wins games and creates tempo boosts doesn't indicate how it actually does either one of these thing.

Let's start with a fundamental understanding of Port. Port costs two mana to use: The one you spend to activate it, and the one you aren't able to draw from Port because you're using its other ability. Port denies your opponent of one mana if and only if they can't spend the mana on an instant or activated ability. This, in a vacuum, is not a tempo boost. This is a tempo loss.

To gain tempo from Port, you need to be drawing a significant advantage by stalling for time, which Goblins admittedly does. But Goblins only does so when either it has an Aether Vial that's building up counters, or it has a relatively pressure-free board and is playing an opponent that, like most, has a worse long game than Goblins.

Now. Of everything in the DTB forum, the Landstills are probably the only time where Port is undisputably great. Against Tempo Thresh if you're mono-red, they can be useful also, keeping opponents off of either Pyroclasm or Tarmogoyf in select situations. They will also be useful on occasion against anything that's struggling to draw land.

Now. Weigh that against the drawbacks. Every time you're using Waste/Port or Port/Port to tap a land down, it could be cycling Gempalm, playing Piledriver, playing Mogg War Marshal, or if you're RB, playing Warren Weirding. And every time you hit Mountain/Waste/Port, you have to factor in that if there's a Chief in your hand, you could be playing him. You also mulligan more hands that start without red sources. You also have less explosive power with 4 mana on the board, where it's a lot more likely you won't be able to play Warchief/Any 2-drop on the same turn.

The drawbacks of it just don't make it worth it for me in 2-color. I'd much rather have my 18 red sources and be more consistent and run a hair less in the mana denial department.

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I agree with this. Port is only useful when you have Vial out or, as Taco says, when you're not being pressured. Most of the time Port is nothing more then a colorless land that sometimes keeps you from casting your RR spells or in certain matchups, gets targeted by Wasteland slowing you down significantly.

I think that any Goblin deck out there should have atleast 16 red mana sources and if you're running 4 Ports with less then this I would advice you to cut 1-2 of them, they will do you more harm then good.

In their defense, Mono-Red builds seem to be running 23-24 land, which usually means that Wasteland targeting their Port is not a huge concern. Wasteland in general isn't a concern for them, actually, Which is why Port's stronger in Red. When you run Port and a splash, your concern shifts not from having your Ports wasted, but to having your duals wasted and being cut off enough red to be ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

In their defense, Mono-Red builds seem to be running 23-24 land, which usually means that Wasteland targeting their Port is not a huge concern. Wasteland in general isn't a concern for them, actually, Which is why Port's stronger in Red. When you run Port and a splash, your concern shifts not from having your Ports wasted, but to having your duals wasted and being cut off enough red to be ridiculous.

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Well ok, I only run 22 lands in my mono-red list but with 23-24 lands I guess you can feel more safe.

Why do mono-red Goblins want/need more lands than the splashed versions if I may ask?

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Originally Posted by Melwis

Well ok, I only run 22 lands in my mono-red list but with 23-24 lands I guess you can feel more safe.

Why do mono-red Goblins want/need more lands than the splashed versions if I may ask?

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Goblins is a mana-hungry deck. 22's pretty much the absolute minimum you should run. 24 with Port actually helps your consistency in hitting land drops while giving you something to do to stall for time while making said land drops. Assuming your skull isn't getting cracked open meanwhile.

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Originally Posted by Melwis

Well ok, I only run 22 lands in my mono-red list but with 23-24 lands I guess you can feel more safe.

Why do mono-red Goblins want/need more lands than the splashed versions if I may ask?

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Every goblin deck wants to run 23 or 24 lands, unless it has strong reasons to run less. One of those reasons could be the maindeck Frogtosserers, or MD Relic of progenitus (more cycling effects). or a lower mana curve.

Monored often wants to have a good number of lands to maximize the number of ports and to support the higher (with the new addition Chieftain) curve.

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Originally Posted by Waikiki

How has the new lord been in testing ?

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the new goblins lords a more rounded option for the goblin king spot if you deck allows space for kings. less you know you know you will be facing off against other red decks.

having more goblin haste options beyond warchief is a plus.

I find that with the death of Fanatic this deck is lacking in turn 1 plays (only vial and lackey left). It also loses tremendous edge against Ichorid.
Turn 2 Piledriver, Turn 3 Warchief swing for 5 just isn't going to be fast enough, meaning you'll pretty much be forced to mull for onedropp, not really atractive from my point of view.
I've read reports of variing success with Relic, Frenzied Goblin/Intimidator Initiate. While Relic might be the better card in a vacuum, the Goblins synergize far better with the rest of the deck. Both cards prefer certain situations to really shine but Relic is far more dependent on those.
And the Goblins actually address the aforementioned problem.

WHat's the reasoning behind cutting Mogg Fanatics in the first place? Their main uses were to self-sacrifice against Bridges, chump block against huge fatties and still ping for 1, and shoot Birds/Lackeys/Confidants/other x/1's. I didn't think gunning down x/2's on the defensive were a main thing.