:)Quote:
Originally Posted by from Cairo
Will do... Now revising my sideboard.
I placed 19th out of a 80ish using that list.
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:)Quote:
Originally Posted by from Cairo
Will do... Now revising my sideboard.
I placed 19th out of a 80ish using that list.
Shinwei: Regarding Sword of War & Peace: I use it because it can hit for outrageous damage. The protection is a bonus. I posted that one time I had it on a Mirran Crusader and hit for 20 points. That was sweet. I tried Sword of Body & Mind early on, but it's not as good IMO.
This week I took 5th in 5 rounds. HORRIBLE. I only lost to Merfolk. TWICE. How do we beat that? I mean, seriously...one of the guys who beat me didn't really know what he was doing, but his deck worked it's magic and I was left with no game wins in the first round of the tourney. I have to say I was impressed with Merfolk.
Dave
Plow the lords, strap on a Jitte, dropping death from above, and then Cataclysm! Flickerwisp an attacking lord and then block the other with the Wisp. Lords must die!!!! Waste the Mutavaults or Port them.
Don't be afraid to Revoke the Vial but remember to tick it up and chump the revoker only when you have to use the vial.
We beat Merfolk (and Goblins by the way) with Serra Avenger and Sword of Fire and Ice.
But metagame shifted, we adapted, and then we got overmetagamed (sorry for this ugly word).
Such things happen from time to time.
They cant deal with resolved equipment. Batterskull is bonkers against them!
These match ups are still favorable. Both decks struggle against equipment. We have Swords to Plowshares and Vial'd Flickerwisp to disrupt combat math. Mother of Runes and the combination of First strikers Thalia and Mirran Crusader also work well to team up against lords or can kill any goblin independently. Avenger and Sword was another combination of good cards against them, but Crusader and Jitte is going to close that match just fine as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by eq.firemind
Merfolk is going beat you from time to time. Excessive three-drops make this more common. Mirran Crusader over Serra Avenger also does not help. Extra removal is handy. Jitte is exceptional. But it all is predicated on making it to turn five with a decent board state. Speed is the word.
Jitte and Batterskull are awesome. It simply didn't seem to matter. Once they had Lord's and Masters, backed up by Daze and FoW, it was game over. Their ability to pump creatures so quickly made Flickerwisp and STP too slow, or Flickerwisp wasn't enough with so many threats on the table by turn 3 or 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Not complaining, just looking for a way to have a better matchup. A second Jitte or Batterskull could be really good. Cataclysm seems too slow. Wilt Leaf Liege could be helpful. But, the stuff that seems to work costs 4....which, again, seems to be too slow. Sword of Fire and Ice could be good.
I guess I'm looking for a board sweeping effect vs hordes that costs less than 4. It would be nice if it were a creature. I know there are defensive tactics like Ghostly Prison, and offensive tactics like Honor of the Pure, and stall tactics like Blind Obedience. At first glance these don't seem good enough and I'm wondering if there are some cards out there that fit the bill that I'm just not aware of.
Thanks!
Dave
Sorry to butt in, but why not try Meekstone against Merfolk? Germ tokens still attack, most if not all of your creatures are 2 power or less (Flickerwisp has 3 power, just realized), and you can pump your guys with Jitte counters while still being able to untap.
OoooOOooohhhhhh (Oooing and aahhh-ing)....At first glance, I really, really like this idea. Has anyone tried this? Or would others please chime in? This seems to have great potential.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
Dave
FYI, I don't play this deck, but I have a great amount of respect for it, unlike the many scrubs on MWS who embarrass themselves with the deck. I like to brainstorm also, hence me randomly popping in this thread to lend ideas.
Anyway, DavidHernandez, I did a Gatherer search filtering for "legendary white creatures," and the only creature that I found to be potentially useful against Merfolk without being expensive is Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo. After you untap with Opal-Eye, you can block a Merfolk, use its ability on another Merfolk, then bounce with Karakas. That's the best I could come up with. It's too bad neither Magus of the Moat nor Peacekeeper are legendary. You can still self-destruct Peacekeeper, but it would be sweet with Karakas, since you can one-sidedly allow yourself to attack while denying your Merfolk opponent combat every turn.
I'm not endorsing any of these cards to actually be good against Merfolk. Just Brainstorming.
Nice. Thanks for taking the time. Yojimbo is interesting too. I know a lot of cards have been tested by the long-time players of this deck, so it's possible these cards have been tried and found wanting, but perhaps they will work for me here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
Dave
One thing to consider is that Merrow Reejerey is a main deck out. I think that Meekstone would still be disruptive, but between Reejerey and Mutavault, the Merfolk deck still has options for interacting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
True. Still, that gives Flickerwisp and STP some time along with our other beats. Also, Rishadan Ports can target the Mutavaults if we save them as part of the strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by from Cairo
You've played this deck longer than I have...do you think Meekstone is viable?
Dave
I honestly think our MD beats Merfolk fine. I'd prefer to add some additional removal if looking for a buff against this deck since it would help against Jund as well. Oust or Sunlance are probably the better two. And/or adding the Sword of Fire and Ice to the MD/SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHernandez
Meekstone just has so little application in other matches, and I would feel uncomfortable devoting slots to Merfolk.
If all else fails and you still want a single card against ol' 'folk, there's always COP/Rune: Blue. (Again, not an endorsement.)
Fiend hunter seems good vs merfolk.
It's a creature so it can be vialed in to avoid counters.
It takes out a lord, can block if there are no lord in play, and can carry an equipement.
Seems like the one of the best card against them.
Sword of fire/ice has the major problem of only being excellent when you need it least. That is, you do not get to kill a lord unless it is the only one on the battlefield. Jitte is typically better in this role. Remember that you are looking for a card to make their attack phase less profitable until you can take control. Jitte gets counters on defense, especially with Crusaders, which survive no matter what and Thalia who is not quite as good.
Meek stone may win you some games, but Merfolk is able to alpha strike and between Rejerrey and Vial, they have enough ways to circumvent it that the better Merfolk players will probably still beat you.
Wilt leaf Liege is useless.
Cataclysm is pretty good, but only if you have him countering creatures. My experience is that again, the better players will not walk into this, as it is a trap you set. You have to bait the counters and get him to overextend. It's a tricky business considering how explosive Merfolk can be, and often unsuccessful. This is not the answer, though I definitely side mine in.
For my dollar, extra cheap removal edges the matchup in your favor and has wide application in stuff we really need help with (Jund, Elves). I side Oust in against quite a few decks. Oblivion Ring does not count.
What if you just played like 4x Path to Exile? Wouldn't that buy enough time to hit them with a SoFI?
The problem I see with Path to Exile is that it disrupts your own game-plan. You are using Rishadan Ports, Wasteland, Mangara, Flickerwisp, etc. to keep the opponent "taxed" in his mana base. To give him land is counter to part of your win condition. That's why Oust is better. Even Banishing Stroke might be better than Path.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
I agree with Finn that Cataclysm is not the best answer either. Baiting a trap is not the best thing to do when you have to give up your win conditions to cast it.
The following is copied from an article written in 5/2011 by Drew Levin. He describes some of the issues in beating Merfolk, and I think these ideas hold water even against Goblins.
"The Problem With Beating Merfolk
source: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...-Phyrexia.html
...The major problem with the above deck (he was talking about a Tezzeret ThopterSword)—besides its atrocious mana base—is that it still wouldn't beat Merfolk. You can play a bunch of amazing cards in your blue control deck against Merfolk—reusable removal Dark Confidant Thopter Foundry + Sword of the Meek Sword of Fire and Ice—but without a coherent strategy the fish will still get you.
The two major problems that blue control decks have with Merfolk are a lack of inevitability and a shortage of ways to get ahead. When building a deck to beat Merfolk you have to win the short game or the long game. If you can't do either it doesn't matter how good your deck looks against Merfolk. You're going to lose.
Merfolk has inevitability over misbuilt blue decks. Blue decks that rely on blockers instead of a heavy removal suite (see: Natural Order Bant) will get run over by Merrow Reejerey or Lord of Atlantis. You can line up three Tarmogoyfs but if all their Merfolk are 5/5 or 6/6 and they cast a Cursecatcher with three Merrow Reejereys in play you're dead on the spot. They could even just cast a Lord of Atlantis and you'd be dead to that.
Blue decks that rely on damage-based removal are in a pretty tenuous position as well since they aren't really built to go long with a Merfolk deck. In Boston I watched Reid Duke grip a hand of useless Bolts as he got run over by blue 4/4s. If you have damage-based removal you have to cast pretty much every removal spell as soon as you draw it lest it become useless a turn down the line. If they have Aether Vial your Chain Lightning might be a blank from the turn you draw it since they can Vial in a Lord untap Vial in another Lord and cast a third to make a trio of 4/4s.
Blue decks that rely on guaranteed removal fare a little better than the others against Merfolk but they're still behind. I played Team America for a month on the Open Series and lost several close matches to Merfolk. The problem with black removal is that it's all one-for-one which raises the necessity of having a way to get ahead on cards. Gerry of course figured out that Dark Confidant was a much better strategy than Tombstalker against Merfolk and Top 8ed Dallas because of that realization. Meanwhile I lost to Scott Barrentine's Merfolk because I still hadn't figured out how to build my deck.
The actual way that Team America would end up losing to Merfolk is that they would cast a Silvergill Adept and then I'd lose. I mean it took a little bit longer than that but that was the first domino. Once they had a free 2/1 against a deck of one-for-ones it was only a matter of time before I drew one more land than they did and they had a two-card advantage on me. If I didn't draw an extra land they could just Wasteland me off of my colored sources and keep me from playing my spells. Either way their innocuous 2/1 was my real downfall.
Against blue decks that rely heavily on one-for-one-ing aggressive decks it is essential to have ways of getting ahead on cards. Hymn to Tourach sort of counts but if they ever really care about it they'll probably Daze or Cursecatcher it. In the aforementioned misbuilt blue control deck Dark Confidant was a nod to “getting ahead” but in real games the deck would probably get Wastelanded off of the mana to cast all of the spells it was flipping off of Dark Confidant.
Cat Zoo is the perfect example of how to build a deck to beat Merfolk. It has 10-12 removal spells large creatures very early in the game a source of card advantage in Grim Lavamancer and many ways to keep Grim Lavamancer active. It doesn't want to go long with Merfolk but it doesn't have to—it's a very threat-dense deck with a consistent mana base and at least fifteen cards that kill their creatures.
The reason why my Charlotte deck beat Merfolk on the other hand was that it couldn't win the short game but rarely lost the long game. In a format as big as Legacy there are all sorts of resource wars that are rarely fought. Very few people choose their deck based on an ability to get an Emrakul off of the board but the Emrakul player knows what decks have that capability. In a similar vein Merfolk can't beat an Ensnaring Bridge. Some lists play Energy Flux or Echoing Truth in the sideboard but I have never seen Merfolk win a game where its opponent resolved an Ensnaring Bridge.
The problem with this strategy is that it loses a bit with the addition of Mental Misstep. If our plan is to find and resolve Ensnaring Bridge while Merfolk has Mental Misstep our Enlightened Tutors might as well have gigantic bull's-eyes on them. My strategy of going up to three Ensnaring Bridges against Merfolk and other non-green aggressive decks will have to become the norm if a deck like this is to survive in the new metagame. Of course there are other cards that Mental Misstep makes even more appealing than Ensnaring Bridge…"
Obviously, Mental Misstep is not an issue anymore, and there are the same problems in resolving an Ensnaring Bridge as there are resolving a Meekstone or anything non-creature based.
A couple of thoughts from friends of mine in a brainstorming session included Magus of the Moat so it could be Vial'd in. My problems with this are: 1: it will be turn 5 before you can Vial him, and 2: Only your Flickerwisps fly. That being said, a resolved Magus would give you the time you need to get a Mangara lock. I suppose the D&T player could adopt a strategy of more fliers using Serra Avengers and Judge's Familar, but this would be dependent on the local meta and might not work at bigger tourney's. Ghostly Prison was mentioned by 3 out of 4 of these players.
In fact, Windborn Muse might be better than Magus of the Moat and Ghostly Prison because of all its attributes. I don't like the casting cost but maybe it can be worked around if other cards slow the opponent. Is it viable?
This discussion is very helpful for me.
Dave