[Deck] Dragon Stompy

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Again, if you cut Arc-Slogger and Trinisphere, you're left with a pile of red threats and mild disruption backed up with no card draw, card advantage, consistency, or deck manipulation. Anyone running this deck needs to ask themselves why they're running it. The strategy of Dragon Stompy is a hypermodern attempt to avoid having much of a cohesive strategy and instead try to just play the cards with the highest "Oops, I win" percentages in the format and win that way. And if that fails, the backup plan is one single super-aggressive burst that the opponent either stops or doesn't.

And also, the bunk about Arc-Slogger shutting off Hellbent is well overhyped. You don't have draw, so you don't topdeck them all that often. And the ones you start with or do topdeck can be Imprinted on Chrome Mox, used to flip Gathan Raiders, or just flat-out cast.

Goblins and Merfolk aren't terribly nightmarish, actually. Jitte helps a ton against Goblins, and Ratchet Bomb is a beast against Merfolk, but yes. Heavily tribal metagames aren't the place for this deck. DS thrives when Combo and decks with exotic manabases are at the forefront.

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I get that you based the deck around Arc-Slogger and Trinisphere so you are quite attached to these cards but they no longer work. I know I'm straying away from your build quite a bit by proposing mine and but if you really want a high "Oops, I win" percentage, I think the new 1-Land Charbelcher is the deck for you. They have neither card advantage (I'm not counting cantrips here) nor deck manipulation but they have 60% chance of winning turn 1. That is fairly consistant if you ask me and their "Oops, I win" percentage is way higher and imposing that Dragon Stompy's. Therefore I will not base my strategy on this factor.

If you don't read my post, you should at least read this section
Let's talk about the lack of card manipulation, card advantage and consistancy first since that is the most important point and crucial difference between my pile of red threats and mild disruption versus your prison deck. If you want to refer to my list, it is a few posts back. If you will notice in my list, I am currently pack 24 creatures, 18 spells and 18 lands. I find that this distribution is better because it allows the deck to play aggressively. I agree that there is no card manipulation in this deck, therefore the best I can do is to manipulate it by building it a certain way. I avoid playing cards like Seething Song because they might clog my hand later on and also is not threatening by itself, neither is Jitte. But I find that acceleration is necessary, so I replaced Seething Song with Lotus Petal (because it doesn't clog up my hand) and Jitte with more threats. The deck focuses on this aggressive strategy and moves disruption to the passenger seat being able to draw creatures pretty much no matter how you mull. Therefore you can be aggressive throughout the game, consistancy. The deck also has no actual card advantage but it does provide a virtual card advantage and that is what the deck has to take advantage of. It is also the reason why I value Chalice of the Void so much. Chalice of the Void creates virtual card advantage by nullifying your opponent's carrds of that converted mana cost exactly the same way Counterbalance does. In this aspect, your opponent's fastest hand, cheap removal and ways to manipulate their cards and deck are all dead. Dragon Stompy takes advantage of this by not having anything in that range.

Trinisphere, I've already explained is useless unless against combo and I guess Zoo. Against control decks they are completely dead and against other aggro decks like Goblins, Fish, Rock, Trinisphere is also useless. When you mull, there is only 4x cards that are relevant in these match ups and that is Chalice of the Void. That is probably the scariest thing you'll drop to them.

Arc-Slogger IS a big deal when it sits in your hand. I HATE pitching it to Chrome Mox because you are almost always 1 short from casting it, so you are tempted to wait for the mana source, but then it never comes. When you finally decide to pitch it, you'll end up drawing a Mountain. Pitch it to Gathan Raider? Sorry, I think that's horrible. Dragon Stompy already runs such a low creature count compared to most aggressive decks and doesn't nearly control as well as a pure control deck. I don't consider pitching another creature an option until I am forced to. In my new Dragon Stompy build, I try to even keep my Simian Spirit Guides so I can smash for 2. It is THAT important to keep your creatures.

Arc-Slogger takes up your entire Seething Song which dawns on me that that is what your explosiveness is about. If you use it on two lock pieces, you might never drop Arc-Slogger. If you use it on Arc-Slogger, he might go farming. What will you do? Simple, cut it from the deck. I admit, his presence is immense and game turning, but with a heavier creature base, I hardly miss him at all. It feels like a big weight has been lifted from my hands (pun intended).

Your match ups against Goblins is probably pretty good since you just need to drop Arc-Slogger or Jitte to fight them, but I mean, modern Goblins have ways to fight that now. As a Goblin player, creatures really aren't that scary so Arc-Slogger will probably be in your hand after you spent your entire turn trying to Seething Song and powering him out. Your Jitte is quite scary, but I know you are playing Dragon Stompy, so you have almost no creatures compared to Goblins, so we'd just swarm you and remove anything you drop so there is nothing for you to equip.

I've never tried Ratchet Bomb against Fish, so I have no comment here, but I do have a commentary about your back up plan: "one super-aggressive burst." How aggressive can Dragon Stompy be in a field where Emrakuls come down turn 1, 8-18 Goblin Tokens come down turn 1, Iona comes down turn 1, Progentius comes down turn 3. Your strongest play I can possibly see is maybe: Seething Song, Seething Song into Trinisphere and Arc-Slogger, or Seething Song, pitch Simian Spirit Guide into Chalice and Rakdos. I guess Rakdos is quite scary if you have hellbent. LOL, I just had an idea, why don't you guys play LED to pump your Rakdos or shoot with Arc-Slogger...

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

@jin: see, the problem with reconfiguring DS as cheap fat backed by llight disruption is that you have no sources of card advantage, and all the decks that do in legacy can just 1 for 1 you to death. Furthermore, you have no reactive answer to many of the killer cards in Legacy. This deck has to play like Roshambo: If your attempts to kick your opponenent in the nuts early don't succeed, say goodbye yo your testes satchel.

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Sorry, I do not see. He did not give a coherent argument in defending why cheap fat creatures backed by light disruption is insufficient. He simply stated and restated it that as apparent fact. I see where you guys might think that card advantage is a factor but as I already explained, it is not.

I do not understand what "1 for 1 you to death" means. Does that mean they can remove your creatures 1 for 1 because I thought Chalice stops that and Thorn slows all of the stronger stuff down.

Please elaborate on killer cards in Legacy. Did you mean Tendrils of Agony, Tarmogoyf, Jace2, Vengevine, Progenitus, Knight of the Reliquary, what?

I really like your analogy.

Trinisphere is superior to Thorn of Amethyst because it makes 0 and 1 drops cost three, while the stone only makes them cost one or two. The thorn is also an almost to totally useless card versus a creature based deck, depending on the deck, while Trinisphere is not. I for one would want a card in my mainboard that isn't dead in certain matchups, and also remember that Trinisphere is better against cards like Force and Swords, which see a lot of play and can stop you dead in your tracks.

Cheap creatures backed up by light disruption is insufficient because Legacy is broken as fuck, so you need heavy, heavy disruption or blinding speed. If you don't run as many disruptive elements as you possibly can, other decks in the format will do a tapdance on your face with anything from 3 vengevines swinging on turn 3 to tendrils for 22 to Iona and 6 zombies. Dragon stompy has to stop this shit proactively because it has no reactive answers to anything like that besides at best a keg/bomb or the like.

So, that means you need to have something like a 90% chance to drop a disruptive element turn 1. But legacy decks are resilient, and you can't guarantee your one hate piece is actually going to win the game in a format with stuff like Force of Will and the like. So you would ideally like to open at least 50% of your hands with 2 pieces of disruption. This means you need at least 14-15 pieces of disruption, which give you a 52-56% chance of opening on at least two, and an 86%-88% chance of opening on at least one.

So there's 15 slots. As far as I know, Moon, Chalice, Magus, and trinisphere are the best disruption available in 1-card packages that can come down turn 1, so let's put those 15 cards in.

Now, we need acceleration. the 2-lands and chrome mox are obvious fits, as is SSG. We do need a stable source of red mana, so 10 mountains make their way in. that's 26 cards. We're up to 41 cards now.

Okay, now we need to kill the opponenent. You'll notice our single-minded focus on rushing lock pieces out means we have no card advantage, so hellbent dudes are really good here. 4 Gathan Raiders/4 Rakdos Pit Dragon. We're up to 49 cards, but only 8 of those are actually beefy dudes, so we need some more. Now, what are you going to run here? Note that it has to be
-Mono-red
-Not cost 1 or 2 mana
-Be a 4 turn clock at maximum
-Can't be too fragile
Arc-Slogger is the best guy that fits these characteristics, since his shock-matic ability just turns games around. There are other options, like Lord, but it's really just a 4RR 6/6 over two turns, and max leveling is way too slow to turn games around like Slogger does. But sloggers are bad in multiples, so let's just put 3 in. That's 52 cards.

Now that we have expensive stuff like slogger and dragon, Seething Song is looking attractive, and we don't care about the lack of card economy since remember, our plan is to Roshambo our opponents before they do the same to us. Lock piece+threat or 2x lock piece is IMO our best shot. 4x song gets us to 56 cards. Now, you can pretty much do what you like with the last 4 slots--kargan, shatterskull, koth, taurean, bomb, Jitte, Kavu, Rakroma, Sulfur, anything is possible when you use man cards like Blood Moon. Basically, while you are being cute with fucking hill giants, I am planning to drop 3-mana cards that say "\win the game" as quickly as opssible.

Also, 3sphere is by no means dead versus stuff like Zoo or Goblins. Slowing them down to 1 spell a turn can buy you enough time to find another lock piece or win with some fatties. And sure 3 sphere is worse on the draw--so is the whole deck.

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Originally Posted by Zupponn

Trinisphere is superior to Thorn of Amethyst because it makes 0 and 1 drops cost three, while the stone only makes them cost one or two. The thorn is also an almost to totally useless card versus a creature based deck, depending on the deck, while Trinisphere is not. I for one would want a card in my mainboard that isn't dead in certain matchups, and also remember that Trinisphere is better against cards like Force and Swords, which see a lot of play and can stop you dead in your tracks.

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I am aware of Trinisphere's advantages. I am also aware of Thorn's disadvantages. Creature based decks have removal, therefore Thorn is not dead because it slows down their ability to cut away at your limited creatures fulfilling the same roll trinisphere would.

I have main deck removal so resolved creatures don't bother me. My creatures are often bigger and scarier so my opponents are forced to sit and wait.

Thorn is weaker in that it does not slow down their creatures and only slows down their utility. Goblin is a good example because Thorn only hits 4 cards in a mono colour build. I get that, but that's why I run only 3. I run them to suppliment Chalice and not to replace Trinisphere. Think about it, here is a hypothetical hand versus Goblin on turn 1 on the draw. They have Goblin Lackey out already:

Trinisphere, Ancient Tomb, Simian Spirit Guide, Seething Song, Chrome Mox, Rakdos, Gathan Raider
vs.
Thorn of Amethyst, Ancient Tomb, Simian Spirit Guide, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Rakdos, Gathan Raider

You power out a first turn 3sphere and a Gathan Raider and I drop Thorn and Gathan Raider. The Goblin player still can't attack me unless he rips a Sting Scourger where as you have a hard-lock. Let's say he does have a stinger, he stings my Raider and swings getting a goblin. If I rip a pyrokinesis, that doesn't matter anymore. For you, he just wait a turn, then bounce your dude and then it's down hill from there for you where as I still have a fighting chance vis-a-vis my 24 creatures and main Pyrokinesis versus a more traditional build. If he doesn't rip a stinger, I'm still in it just like you are. Except you might have 7-8 Blood Moons which will screw you over in the end where as I only have 4 and they are 2/2's.

People on this thread keeps telling me that they want "cards.. that isn't dead in certain matchups" and "best cards" and "least dead cards" but I'm sorry, Thorn is less of a dead card than Trinisphere. Trinisphere is win-more and is only strong in your easy match ups like Countertop, Tempo Thresh, TES, etc. It is weak in the match ups you need it the most where as Thorn is not dead in those match ups: ie. Stax, The Might Quinn, Landstill. Also, Thorn is not dead in multiples.

Yes, Trinisphere is better against Force and Swords. What's better against Humility, Jace2/Elspeth, Deeds, Firespout, Vindicate/Pulse, Equipment all of which are devastating to Dragon. Sorry, I don't believe a Force of Will mid-game will stop me dead in my tracks.

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

Cheap creatures backed up by light disruption is insufficient because Legacy is broken as fuck, so you need heavy, heavy disruption or blinding speed. If you don't run as many disruptive elements as you possibly can, other decks in the format will do a tapdance on your face with anything from 3 vengevines swinging on turn 3 to tendrils for 22 to Iona and 6 zombies. Dragon stompy has to stop this shit proactively because it has no reactive answers to anything like that besides at best a keg/bomb or the like.

So, that means you need to have something like a 90% chance to drop a disruptive element turn 1. But legacy decks are resilient, and you can't guarantee your one hate piece is actually going to win the game in a format with stuff like Force of Will and the like. So you would ideally like to open at least 50% of your hands with 2 pieces of disruption. This means you need at least 14-15 pieces of disruption, which give you a 52-56% chance of opening on at least two, and an 86%-88% chance of opening on at least one.

Arc-Slogger is the best guy that fits these characteristics, since his shock-matic ability just turns games around. There are other options, like Lord, but it's really just a 4RR 6/6 over two turns, and max leveling is way too slow to turn games around like Slogger does. But sloggers are bad in multiples, so let's just put 3 in. That's 52 cards.

Also, 3sphere is by no means dead versus stuff like Zoo or Goblins. Slowing them down to 1 spell a turn can buy you enough time to find another lock piece or win with some fatties. And sure 3 sphere is worse on the draw--so is the whole deck.

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Yes, I admit I haven't totally figured out the Vengevine match up yet, but all of the other decksx you mentioned seem to be combo decks. I think Thorn and Chalice will suffice.

Regarding your advocation of hard locks, I understand Legacy is fast and decks are resiliant and that is precisely why I would opt for cheaper fast locks than more expensive hard locks. Like CounterTop, Chalice and Thorn help make it difficult for your oppoent to develop their own board, but we have to rememeber that CounterTop cannot be played as a hardlock early on or else the CounterTop player will also be rushed down by the faster opponents. This calls to my attention that soft locks are better in Legacy because it helps you develop your own board as well as slows down the development of the oppoent's board.

Of course, I am saying all of this while giving you the benefit of the doubt, because in testing, players will learn that Moon/Trinisphere are cards that are specified against a certain type of deck and are not necessarily a hard lock to ALL Legacy decks. Your traffic light needs to be held up where as my speed bump stands on its own.

I'm sorry, I didn't do the numbers, so I'll let the calculating stuff to you. If 15 pieces are necessary, then my deck is rather light on lock pieces. I'd add more but there isn't anything that I see would fit unless they come out with another Magus that is useful (I refuse to cut creatures except for maybe Kavu against decks that don't play creatures... I think it would kill itself?)

Yes, Lord of Shatterskull Pass is RR4 for 6/6 and yes, I never max him, but he is a 6/6 that comes out a turn earlier than Arc-Slogger. Also, he costs R instead of RR so he comes out easier. A lot of Dragon Stompy players will notice that RR is rather hard to get. Seething Song tricks you into thinking you have more coloured mana than you actually have. Arc-Slogger is great, but he can be replaced. Also Lord of Shatterskull Pass has a 4 turn clock where as Arc-Slogger by himself has a 5 turn clock (which means he doesn't fit your criterion). He's a 4/5.

Another note I wanted to add is that I feel with your math added, you are aiming more towards a prison deck than a "stompy" deck. I think Stax is more taxing than Dragon Stompy, maybe you should look into it. Faerie Stompy works fine with just Chalice and Force of Will. I don't think my build strays too far away from that. With 15 lock pieces and 18 lands, that's already more than half of your deck. You also have acceleration, so you don't have much room to do the stomping. I feel that Dragon should try to retain it's aggro aspect as much as possible. Instead of trying to do everything, Dragon Stompy players should just try to do what they do best, stomp face.

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

Ratchet bomb is really helpful versus a bunch of stuff. For instance, DS is kind of weak versus an opposing vial, or Empty tokens on t1 (which a lot of storm combo decks should go for versus you). It's not the most powerful card, but it gives you a lot of flexibility versus random junk like Enchantress. I really just got tired of drawing two trinispheres and uncastable Kavus. Bomb can also help you mop up stuff that slips under your chalice wall.

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Upon further testing, it seems I have underrated Ratchet Bomb. I did not realize that it differred from Powder Keg THAT much and now I find that 4x Ratchet Bomb is necessary in order to keep order in the Dragon ruled kingdom. Therefore I have removed the City of Traitors from my side for the fourth Ratchet Bomb.

Ratchet Bomb not only suppliments Anarchy and Thorn of Amethyst in the white control match ups, it also works well as removal for "random junk" and also suppliments Pyrokinesis, and Pyroclasm in the tribal match ups. Thanks for the tip.

PS: Koth is a power house against control decks like Landstill and Enchantress. I just tested him. Sick... I think he's a great replacement for Akroma and even Boil.

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Originally Posted by jin

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Originally Posted by jin

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Easy guys. Easy. Jeebus, I feel like there's so much frustration around this deck, that every dozen posts or so, people are getting into arguments over playstyle, arc-slogger, or Consistency DS vs Hellbent DS.

I don't think I'm considered a senior member in any respects, but I've been piloting this deck for the past 3-4 yrs. If you guys didn't realize, you guys are having the same argument that many others have had for years before u! It's like a vicious cycle in the twilight zone and I've got to warn u guys not to make the same mistake I made jumping onto this thread lol. Now, to the comments (CDS= consistency dragon stompy similar to jin's, HDS = hellbent dragon stompy/original).

As far as where this deck stands in the meta, it's not bad at all imo. It's quite good. The top decks right now are CB Top, Landstill, Merfolk, Combo, and Survival. The only bad matchup is survival. This is actually a good thing as we used to have a lot of bad/even matchups like enchantress, stax, deadguy's ale, eva green, aggro loam etc...remember those days? These bad/even mu's now makeup a Very small portion of the meta in most areas.

I've held my own recently (possibly even better than in the past) and I believe any of u can do the same. As for the question "Is CDS better or HDS?" My answer is NEITHER! Honestly, it all comes down to play style. It shows exactly in Jin and Ozy's opinions of 1st priority for moves! Most of the lists i've seen can do quite well against goblins, merfolk, zoo, TES, etc. The matchups rarely change. The list you choose should be the list that you feel accompanies your play style, so practice with both. I used to feel that it was stupid that there was a thread for "Zoo" and a thread for "Naya Sligh", but I can see now why they are different, bc people play drastically different and value things like timing, control, and game state very different.

As for Jin's list, great job. I do believe that the petals combined with the thorn actually does fit nicer in CDS. As for flametongue against Survival, I agree less bc they attack you for 16 first, then you take care of 2 of them, but you still got 2 left to go and recursion ability.

As for Ozy, trini's are very debatable to go up to 4 in HDS. There are many budget players who are forced to learn how to play TES well so they can take advantage of survival players, and that population is vastly growing. Several t8's are seeing a lot of Storm in other countries.

Whichever list you choose is very tweekable to defeat zoo, landstill, merfolk, tes, goblins, elves, etc, So hopefully we can focus more on the survival matchup now. Any other mu has been beaten like a dead horse. At the end of the day, I hope both lists do very well because the value of mix-ups, and unpredictability will only strengthen our matchups against others. Sorry for this long post. I'll understand if I get a lot of "tldr's", but hopefully this got through to some of you, so we won't have to keep having the same convo's on the DS thread.

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Originally Posted by mercs

I've held my own recently (possibly even better than in the past) and I believe any of u can do the same. As for the question "Is CDS better or HDS?" My answer is NEITHER! Honestly, it all comes down to play style. It shows exactly in Jin and Ozy's opinions of 1st priority for moves! Most of the lists i've seen can do quite well against goblins, merfolk, zoo, TES, etc. The matchups rarely change. The list you choose should be the list that you feel accompanies your play style, so practice with both. I used to feel that it was stupid that there was a thread for "Zoo" and a thread for "Naya Sligh", but I can see now why they are different, bc people play drastically different and value things like timing, control, and game state very different.

As for Jin's list, great job. I do believe that the petals combined with the thorn actually does fit nicer in CDS. As for flametongue against Survival, I agree less bc they attack you for 16 first, then you take care of 2 of them, but you still got 2 left to go and recursion ability.

As for Ozy, trini's are very debatable to go up to 4 in HDS. There are many budget players who are forced to learn how to play TES well so they can take advantage of survival players, and that population is vastly growing. Several t8's are seeing a lot of Storm in other countries.

Whichever list you choose is very tweekable to defeat zoo, landstill, merfolk, tes, goblins, elves, etc, So hopefully we can focus more on the survival matchup now. Any other mu has been beaten like a dead horse. At the end of the day, I hope both lists do very well because the value of mix-ups, and unpredictability will only strengthen our matchups against others. Sorry for this long post. I'll understand if I get a lot of "tldr's", but hopefully this got through to some of you, so we won't have to keep having the same convo's on the DS thread.

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I'm not frustrated, I'm just trying to get some perspective on the matter. It doesn't seem like people are listening to reasoning or giving valid arguments except stating facts that have already been stated (ie. what 3sphere does to a Swords to Plowshare). Oh yes, I feel that I'm getting a lot of TL;DR too. LOL. I still don't get the difference between Naya Sligh and Zoo, but whatever. I don't really read those threads. Also, I apologize for bringing up an argument that happened awhile ago as I am a recent reader of the Dragon thread (last few months).

I totally agree with what you said about the Kavu. I'm not advocating that Kavu is good against Vengevine, I just don't feel that it performs so poorly that it would be labelled as "bad."

Yes, 3sphere is awesome against combo, but Thorn isn't bad. Chalice is also very strong against combo. But I mean, unless you can shut down Shattering Spree, none of this matters.

I'm stuck on the Vengevine match up also. The poeple on the Goblin thread agree that disrupting Vengevine Survival's manabase is a viable strategy. I don't know how Dragon will do this though....

PS: Dues of Calamity + Pyrokinesis?.. there is a thought...

^^I agree with these words of wisdom from mercs^^

@jin
Against Vengevine we can side in graveyard hate and possibly Pithing Needle. Moon effects also hurt, although they don't shut down, their manabase. Is this combined with our other disruption enough to try and race them?

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Originally Posted by Zupponn

^^I agree with these words of wisdom from mercs^^

@jin
Against Vengevine we can side in graveyard hate and possibly Pithing Needle. Moon effects also hurt, although they don't shut down, their manabase. Is this combined with our other disruption enough to try and race them?

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I don't think so since Survival is only one engine. They can slow play or use Fauna Shaman and Quirian Ranger. Crypt has been proven to be ineffective. I don't think moon will hurt too much since they play quite a bit of basics (6 forests?). I wouldn't try to race them. Some combos have trouble in doing that...

I think I found it. Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs makes 3/3's whenever a ccreature attacks. Therefore Vengevines will never get through, although I hear Wonder is quite annoying...

thoughts?

Silent Arber? Crawl Space?

AFAIK survival's manabase is like 8 fetch, 4 waste, 4 trop 3 basics, which is fine to attack w/Blood moon. Also, a Moon effect combined with Kazuul will hold off veggies for a long time--which might be enough time to max level Shatterskull in your list. The really sexy tech, though, is Fortune Thief, which will actually just blow them out and give you an opportunity to counter-strike.

Slogger is actually a 3 turn clock by itself. Swing=4, swing 2=4 swing 3=4, 8 points to dome=lethal.

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

AFAIK survival's manabase is like 8 fetch, 4 waste, 4 trop 3 basics, which is fine to attack w/Blood moon. Also, a Moon effect combined with Kazuul will hold off veggies for a long time--which might be enough time to max level Shatterskull in your list. The really sexy tech, though, is Fortune Thief, which will actually just blow them out and give you an opportunity to counter-strike.

Slogger is actually a 3 turn clock by itself. Swing=4, swing 2=4 swing 3=4, 8 points to dome=lethal.

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Are we not counting Hierarchs and Birds here? Are we not dealing with Vengevine Survival in general? I believe the Ooze version plays quite a bit of green, so Blood Moon is hardly an answer to fend off Vengevine Survival in general. So you think Kazuul will work?

I'm not under any illusion that my version of Dragon would be able to power out Kazuul early enough though. I might have to include Seething Song, but I'm still not 100% sure about the effectiveness of Kazuul.

Hmm, Fortune Thief... That is interesting, but I'm thinking if Vengevine Survival decides to include removal, then we are dead. Also Ooze combo takes this option and kicks it out the window. It could be considered against UG Survival I suppose, but then so could Blood Moon.

I would hardly consider Arc-Slogger's burning ability as a finisher unless they were at 2 or 4. I seriously doubt you'd use it that way instead of burning their creatures, but if you say so.

IMO I did not like jin's list... looks like "aggro hate" than "lock piece deck"...
If you wanna run a couple of stuffs to handle with Fishes and Zoos, do not go with DS...
Tacosnape said a few days ago: "you are missing the point" and I agree with him. DS is a multiple "lock deck" option, a long time ago when the non-basics came to dominate everything in meta: Lands decks, Dark Dephts decks, Loam decks, Landstill decks... so according to the environment that we aways think before play Legacy's event, DS must be the key to handle with non-basics.
My point is: agrro-meta > change your mind, not the coredeck :[

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Originally Posted by Masamune

IMO I did not like jin's list... looks like "aggro hate" than "lock piece deck"...
If you wanna run a couple of stuffs to handle with Fishes and Zoos, do not go with DS...
Tacosnape said a few days ago: "you are missing the point" and I agree with him. DS is a multiple "lock deck" option, a long time ago when the non-basics came to dominate everything in meta: Lands decks, Dark Dephts decks, Loam decks, Landstill decks... so according to the environment that we aways think before play Legacy's event, DS must be the key to handle with non-basics.
My point is: agrro-meta > change your mind, not the coredeck :[

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So basically what you are saying is: if the meta is full of aggro, don't change the deck - just don't play it?

If the aggro isn't crippled by Blood Moon or Chalice like Zoo, then yes.

I was actually thinking of changing my flex slots into Avalanche Riders, which would keep decks from using their 1-of basics. Too cute?

Stone Rain :o

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

If the aggro isn't crippled by Blood Moon or Chalice like Zoo, then yes.

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Well then, since the purpose of this thread is now moot, there isn't much more to say. Farewell and good luck.

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

If the aggro isn't crippled by Blood Moon or Chalice like Zoo, then yes.

I was actually thinking of changing my flex slots into Avalanche Riders, which would keep decks from using their 1-of basics. Too cute?

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I haven't had too much success with the avalanche riders personally. I tried him a lot when people were talking of the possibility of going ponza, but it never really worked out. Even though ruckus was joking about the stone rain, that's pretty much what it comes down to. I almost never wanted to echo except under desperation when I was already gonna lose.

As for fortune thief, that was pretty helpful for me in my last tournament. No one was expecting it, and it was also a beast in the merfolk matchup too. Getting overrun by merfolk and elves/progenitus is a problem that's not too daunting anymore.

My biggest problem though is that I think ppl realize the Ooze survival is better than the madness survival, so even with fortune thief, ooze or shriekmaw willl just take it down. I'd have to get a good lock by taking out black sources and chalice b4 i can sit down on fortune thief alone.

Flame tongue kavu is good against vengvine, not because it hits vengvine, but because if it follows up a turn one moon effect or chalice at 1, they aren't going to have their bird or heirarch anymore. They also either won't be able to play their other one drops or won't be able to fetch out anything else.

Kavu has to hit before vengvines hit. If vengvines are on the table, you have already lost without a fortune theif (provided you play it)

@trinisphere: one of the best cards in the deck right now. slows down vengvine plan a ton... with moons down, slows them down a hell of a lot more even

Slogger can also ping the little guys that get them around moon, which is huge. Slogger is also good against tribal. Really good. I can remember a few games where I had turn one slogger against tribal and they were all sorts of frowntown..

If you are looking to address vengvine decks, trinisphere is one of the best cards available in the mainboard. That slogger is also good in this matchup as well as magnificent in the tribal matchup is also a good indicator (to me at least) to run no less than two.

I usually run 14 lockpieces, 14 beatsticks, and the standard mana accell package and two jitte which has provided a good number of easy wins and not many unwinnable matchups.

That being said, the Meta right now is a bit easier to ride through as a tendrils player, so for a while at least I'll probably be keeping dragon stompy on the back burner

Without being a true expert in the deck, I'd like to underline the crucial points I like and agree with in the recent discussion. Pardon me for not being brief.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Hate to be this guy, but you wouldn't lose nearly as badly to Goblins, Faeries, or random things like Nim Shriker if you'd RUN ARC SLOGGER.
[...] You HAVE to play game-winning cards.
[...] Even Kargan Dragonlord can work it's way up to 8/8 flying and give it a run for its money.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth

[...]
Shatterskull is still "Mr. Bigger than Goyf" whats more than often enough, and in stall games [or even much other games thx to Koth and Seething Song] with his Ultimate, which is just wicked sick you just Win. [...]

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by jin

[...]
- Lord of Shatterskull Pass is HUGE the following turn. I don't know what people don't like about him. I just know that he costs R and 3 generic which makes him really cheap. Dragon sometimes suffer from a lack of red, well it doesn't matter much to this guy.
[...]
As an extra found in my main deck that most Dragon decks don't have are Pyrokinesis. I feel that Dragon desperately needs removal...[...]

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

1) No Arc-Slogger whyyyy.
[...]

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

Ratchet bomb is really helpful versus a bunch of stuff. [...] Bomb can also help you mop up stuff that slips under your chalice wall. [...]

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zupponn

Trinisphere is superior to Thorn of Amethyst because it makes 0 and 1 drops cost three, while the stone only makes them cost one or two. The thorn is also an almost to totally useless card versus a creature based deck, depending on the deck, while Trinisphere is not. I for one would want a card in my mainboard that isn't dead in certain matchups, and also remember that Trinisphere is better against cards like Force and Swords, which see a lot of play and can stop you dead in your tracks.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

[...]
Also, 3sphere is by no means dead versus stuff like Zoo or Goblins. Slowing them down to 1 spell a turn can buy you enough time to find another lock piece or win with some fatties. And sure 3 sphere is worse on the draw--so is the whole deck.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by jin

[...]
If I rip a pyrokinesis, that doesn't matter anymore. For you, he just wait a turn, then bounce your dude and then it's down hill from there for you where as I still have a fighting chance vis-a-vis my 24 creatures and main Pyrokinesis versus a more traditional build.
[...]
Thorn is not dead in multiples.

Yes, Trinisphere is better against Force and Swords. What's better against Humility, Jace2/Elspeth, Deeds, Firespout, Vindicate/Pulse, Equipment all of which are devastating to Dragon. Sorry, I don't believe a Force of Will mid-game will stop me dead in my tracks.
[...]
Yes, Lord of Shatterskull Pass is RR4 for 6/6 and yes, I never max him, but he is a 6/6 that comes out a turn earlier than Arc-Slogger. Also, he costs R instead of RR so he comes out easier. A lot of Dragon Stompy players will notice that RR is rather hard to get.
[...]
Upon further testing, it seems I have underrated Ratchet Bomb. I did not realize that it differred from Powder Keg THAT much and now I find that 4x Ratchet Bomb is necessary in order to keep order in the Dragon ruled kingdom. Therefore I have removed the City of Traitors from my side for the fourth Ratchet Bomb.
[...]

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by mercs

[...]
As for the question "Is CDS better or HDS?" My answer is NEITHER! Honestly, it all comes down to play style. It shows exactly in Jin and Ozy's opinions of 1st priority for moves! Most of the lists i've seen can do quite well against goblins, merfolk, zoo, TES, etc. The matchups rarely change. The list you choose should be the list that you feel accompanies your play style, so practice with both. I used to feel that it was stupid that there was a thread for "Zoo" and a thread for "Naya Sligh", but I can see now why they are different, bc people play drastically different and value things like timing, control, and game state very different.

As for Jin's list, great job. I do believe that the petals combined with the thorn actually does fit nicer in CDS. As for flametongue against Survival, I agree less bc they attack you for 16 first, then you take care of 2 of them, but you still got 2 left to go and recursion ability.
[...]

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by jin

[...]
I would hardly consider Arc-Slogger's burning ability as a finisher unless they were at 2 or 4. I seriously doubt you'd use it that way instead of burning their creatures, but if you say so.

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Originally Posted by Tivon

Flame tongue kavu is good against vengvine, not because it hits vengvine, but because if it follows up a turn one moon effect or chalice at 1, they aren't going to have their bird or heirarch anymore. They also either won't be able to play their other one drops or won't be able to fetch out anything else.

Kavu has to hit before vengvines hit. If vengvines are on the table, you have already lost without a fortune theif (provided you play it)

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And my 2 cents:

About Arc-Sloggers:
Even without card drawing, 4 of them are can often be topdecked in multiples chief:D However, it has never occured to me -when I play two of them- to either ruin Hellbent, or not be able to use them immediately[or almost]. Thus, even fanatics against Slogger HAVE NO EXCUSE FOR NOT PLAYING AT LEAST 1 COPY OF THIS BEAST!
I challenge all of you to find me an excuse for not playing 1. Even Francesco Dalla Via.

About game winning cards:
I believe the positive difference in this deck will be made when all of our cards will be ultra strong, early or late game. That will be achieved by: (1)cutting some of the undesired-in-multiples cards, without simultaneously losing a good chance to see them around, (2)adding different game winning cards, even 1-ofs. (1)+(2)=same number of game winning cards, with a more random game winning plan, and the danger of losing Hellbent or having a lot of dead draws eliminated as much as it can be.
Example 1: Mauler is good early game + bad late game = I won't play Mauler, if I can find something good in both scenarios like Lord of SP or Dragonlord.
Example 2: I won't play more than 1 Jitte. If I want more equipment, I can pack Sword of Fire and Ice, which is great against 2 of the most common DTBs.

About Blood Moons:
Jin...the 7-8 Moons not only mana-deny the opponent, they also help us not lose our Cities of Traitors and not being killed by our own Tombs! We don't like it when we give more red mana to Goblins...but we SURE like it when they can't use their Ports and Wastelands. What's your argument about this comrade?:D

About Lord of Shatterskull Pass:
Castable. Huge. Anytime.

About Trinisphere vs. Thorn of Jin:
There are times when we all hate Trin' and the opposite. But it sure is an Arcane Laboratory for cheap spell decks, even if you play it a little later. It also serves as a good pest if chalice is removed,versus all spells, not only non-creature... And Jin if you really want an answer to your question

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jin

[...]What's better against Humility, Jace2/Elspeth, Deeds, Firespout, Vindicate/Pulse, Equipment all of which are devastating to Dragon.[...]

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then (if you exclude Firespout & equips) my answer regarding the rest is simple: Blood Moon!
I like your spirit, trying to think out of the box, and your reasoning about your choices is valid. But in your good effort to devise something better -which I respect, and know that works better in certain metagames- I think you omitted some choices that are better against a wider variety of targets. My guess is that you started thinking with Thorns as a ruler, kicking out Moon and Trin because they would be slow and unpurposeful to cast at 4. The 0-cost would cost 1 then, and Chalice couldn't be omitted, so you used 3 Thorns in order to get a Chalice first and not let them mess with each other. Am I right? I have to admit I like your plan's 24 creature count, and your maidecked removal ideas.

About DRAGON STOMPY as a good/bad meta choice:
Some people like me don't want to spend tons of bucks to buy Duals, Forces, etc.. So while it's useful to state that DS is not a good meta choice to let people get an idea, it's also good to suggest the best way DS can stand in the meta, even if it's a mediocre choice. People with only 1 good Legacy deck in their arsenal appreciate it:))

About 1st turn defeats:
I don't care about them, we can't have everything. They don't impress me either. If you hate this, Mindbreak Trap them perhaps.

About removal:
Lockpieces are removed, mana-denial isn't always viable, pests slip through, Crash-Boom-Bang! I strongly agree that we need maindeck removal of some kind. Let me give you the list I played in the last 28 people tournament 1 week ago, which's results I'm embarrassed to report due to some childish play mistakes:)) I can't forgive myself for playing Chalice at 1 versus Ravager...Finished 11th.

4 City
4 Tomb
10 Mountain

4 C.Mox
4 S.Songs

4 Chalice
3 Moon
3 Trini

4 SSG
4 R.P.Dragon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Raiders
2 Arc-Sloggers
2 Lord of Shitterskull Pass

1 Jitte
1 SoFI

2 Volcanic Fallout

SB:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
2 Anarchy
1 Smash
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Goblin Assault

I really wanted to test Aftershocks again, but I also wanted to be sure about my deck..so no Akromas, no quartet of Sloggers, no Maulers, no funny or randomly-excellent stuff. Why 1 Smash? To have 5 anti-artifact pieces(counting Needles). Why "Smash"? Leave it..(I just like instant surprises like Macabre). Why the hell Goblin Ass.?? To have a random game winning chance against Mono-Black Random Ones, which some dudes used to play. It is also good against Humility, and I had the suicidal curiosity to test it against Goblins too.That didn't happen.
OKAY! Smash and Ass should be two more Fallouts. Maybe maindecked, with the equipments sided. Or 3 in plus Jitte. So,

(1) Do you think 4 removals maidecked are too much? What is the best combo? 4 Volcanic Fallouts, 4 Ratchet Bombs, 1+3 or 3+1 of them? I think bombs are more effective earlier due to their "charging" time loss, so 3-4 Bombs should be a lot better than 2. Fallouts on the other hand can be imprinted (unfortunately they cost 1RR), can be used to deal dmg to a player, and are an instant solution vs weenies contrary to the bombs.
For me, these two are the best solutions concerning removal. I don't like removing equipments from my list, thus weakening even more my 2/2's, but if I can open the way for them, they don't need more support. Jin & Ozy seem to be right in this...and personally I'd take the bombs maindecked for being versatile and game turning/winning in more situations than VFs.

(2) Do you think 20 creatures are too few?

(3) Do you think 3 Moons and 3 Trinis total (main+sb) are a mistake nowadays?

I apologise for this long post. I tried to summarise the debate from my aspect.

Please forget Avalanche Riders... it is terrible xD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 0dysseus

...

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I wasn't planning to post here again, but since someone with a valid argument called me out, I had to give a reply. I'll try to keep it short:

Arc-Slogger]: I don't hate him. I just don't have room to fit him in the list. I have sufficient removal that are cheaper in terms of mana symbol and converted mana cost. With the investment I have to put into casting an Arc-Slogger (usually life and acceleration and a turn), I would rather cast multiple other spells instead. I agree that Arc-Slogger is game changing, but so is Rakdos, which is enough for me.

Other game winning cards: Your plan sounds great on paper, but I have to disagree with you here. This will only cause inconsistancy. An army is both game changing and consistant (although not a single card).

Blood Moon: My argument about moon saving us from port? Run creatures with lower CMC so that one land being ported (no matter if it is a 2land or a Mountain) doesn't slow us down too much. Ports might affect builds that play with too many 5cmc creatures, but my build, creatures are only 3 or 4 and single R outside of Rakdos. My argument about moon saving our 2lands from wastelands. Run more mountains as I have. I play goblins, this works. If my ports don't stop you from casting things, I'll stop porting you, because if goblins can't stop you with control, they'll try to swarm you.

Trinisphere: Yes, it is an arcane laboratory for some decks. But let me make it really simple for you guys. In the combo match up where we like Trinisphere, Thorn is also effective, so we'll ignore it. Trinisphere is almost pointless in the control match up like Landstill/Stax/CounterThopter. And everyone on this thread is arguing that Thorn is useless in the aggro match up. So the only relevant argument here is the last one. Can we all agree that Thorn sucks in the aggro match up? Since Thorn is useless in the aggro match up, it shouldn't be played. But wait, aggro decks play removal and Thorns slow down removal almost the same way as Trinisphere does. But they can still cast creatures. But wait, I have a solution to the flaw in my own plan. Thorn allows me to play Pyrokinesis maindeck. Any further questions?

Answering my question: Thank you so much for even reading it. That is a very good answer but I don't know if it will suffice. Elspeth and Humility can be seen in monocoloured decks like The Mighty Quinn, Dutch Stax, and even enchantress has those pesky enchantments that make coloured mana so moon does nothing to them (I'm assuming worst case scenario where you didn't get to drop moon before they went). Also decks that play Pernicious Deeds, Pulse, play Hierarch and Birds of Paradise. Blood Moon is the most effective when they don't expect it (I know this from Goblins), but if you are playing Dragon, common, it doesn't take a scientist.

Answering your questions:
1. No, four is not enough. That's why I'm forced to run the Kavus. There are too many creatures in Legacy and Dragon packs too little removal. Equipment is strong, but they are slow. With Arc-Sloggers and equipment, you could probably play less removal, but I don't think they'll be enough early enough. You'll probably slowly add more and slowly decrease your equipment as I have going from 4 to 2 to 0.

Yeah, your 2/2's are only for swinging if the path is clear. Clear them with Pyrokinesis (it's a bomb).

2. Yes, Zoo runs around 20 and they struggle to get damage through. That's why they play burns.

3. No comment needed here. Everyone knows what I think.

Additional: You run Volcanic Fallout. I've tried this, I've also tried Pyroclasm in the main because I like to cut R symbols from my Dragon Deck. In the end they don't work. The reason mainly being that if things have less than 3 toughness now a days, they are not threats to your life total directly. That being said, things that ARE a direct threat to your life total will almost always have more than 2 toughness. If you play them, you'll board them out against Fish/Zoo/Countertop/Landstill (because of Jace2)/Dark Horizons/Aggro Loam/Mirror/etc. If you play Pyrokinesis, you'll keep them in against Fish/Zoo/Mirror at the very least.

PS: Why do people keep telling me what Arc-Slogger and Trinisphere does? I can read. Instead why don't people tell me in what situations these cards are better, besides the already discusses Thorn can't slow down creatures (refer to above for answer.. in short, removal.)

If you love Arc-Slogger, you can always shove him in the Kavu slot.