[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

On the topic of Lim-Dul's Vault: I do not reccommend adding it to your deck. There are a lot of reasons I can give if you ask me to, but the main issues I have with it are that on its own it doesn't make an immediate impact on the gamestate (ie more cards in hand, Storm's version of "board presence", I would say), for which it demands more resources.

As for Burning Wish, let me just say this. Having played the 16-cantrip build, my average gameplan has become something along the lines of cantrip/discard T1, cantrip+discard T2, win T3. This is simple because it requires only 2 colors (UB), and my mana base fully supports those two colors. At any time I can count on my deck to reliably produce lands giving me the mana I need for my early game work, allowing me to save my Petals for PiF or for post-Ad Nauseam action. Including Burning wish as a key card means that suddenly your deck depends on three colors to reliably produce you a win on an average of Turn 3. This requires you to either crack your petals early for Wish, or for you to use lands like your Badlands which will not allow you to fulfill all of the functions of your deck. Pre-combo turn, running a 2cmc prep spell cuts down on your actions-per-turn, making it much more difficult to dig+discard T2, say. During the combo turn, BW is nice as long as you can pay for it, but we're not worried about combo turn, we're worried about getting there. Also, this may be a non-issue, but if you're concerned about discard against you, Preordain is better in that sense than Wish because it puts things on top of your deck, safe and sound, instead of right smack in your hand for everyone to know it's there.

tl;dr, other decks, like TES, are faster than we are, but we are still competitive because we have an advantage of our own: disruption. We can't play all the same cards that they do, because we have a different gameplan. Balancing between dig and disruption pre-combo is something that makes us special.

If speed above all else is your objective, don't hesitate to consider other, faster combo decks.

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

@Secretly.A.Bee : having decay, creature removal and so on i felt like c of vapor overlaps my side choices. Maybe i'm missing something.

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Chain of Vapor is versatile. You may use it on anything from Lodestone Golem to Iona, Shield of Pure Win. Also, it's nice to have against Thalia, esp. when they have MoR. You may Decay EOT (Mothered) and then CoV during your turn.

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Originally Posted by bjholmes3

On the topic of Lim-Dul's Vault: I do not reccommend adding it to your deck. There are a lot of reasons I can give if you ask me to, but the main issues I have with it are that on its own it doesn't make an immediate impact on the gamestate (ie more cards in hand, Storm's version of "board presence", I would say), for which it demands more resources.

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Have you tried the card for long enough? Because two-mana instant (though poor man's) Vampiric Tutor/Doomsday is quite solid. I'm really surprised that you dislike the card, even as a fifth Infernal Tutor it isn't bad. Otoh, I like your reasoning on cantrips version and the firm manabase. Just that every time I play the Preordain list I just cantrip into oblivion...

I'll admit, I haven't given Tim's Vault much of a chance. I just don't feel comfortable with the thing. I mean, like I said, having an Index on steroids is nice and all, but I dislike it for the same reason I prefer Ponder to aforementioned Index. I mean, consider the following. We are a shuffle-heavy deck, given our propensity for fetches and for tutors. Combined with our desired combo turn, let's say that we'll only ever see 2 or 3 cards From the Vault, at best (I arrived at this figure assuming EoT2 LDV, draw 1st T3, 2nd if it goes to T4 and we don't shuffle, and cantrip at some point into 3rd), and these are cards that take us time and resources to access.

Now, I'm all about mana efficiency. With those same resources, I could run a T2 Brainstorm, fetch-shuffle, play Ponder, all of which adds two new cards to my hand, dumps unwanted stuff like Tendrils or extra lands, and potentially fixes my next two draws. Sure, those draws probably won't have as much oomph as they would have coming from LDV, but it's powerful enough for this deck to succeed. Or, say it's g2/3 and my opponent has stuff I really don't want to see the light of day. I can T1 Discard, T2 Cantrip/Discard, which in my experience would generally leave me pretty safe to combo.

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Originally Posted by bjholmes3

I'll admit, I haven't given Tim's Vault much of a chance. I just don't feel comfortable with the thing. I mean, like I said, having an Index on steroids is nice and all, but I dislike it for the same reason I prefer Ponder to aforementioned Index. I mean, consider the following. We are a shuffle-heavy deck, given our propensity for fetches and for tutors. Combined with our desired combo turn, let's say that we'll only ever see 2 or 3 cards From the Vault, at best (I arrived at this figure assuming EoT2 LDV, draw 1st T3, 2nd if it goes to T4 and we don't shuffle, and cantrip at some point into 3rd), and these are cards that take us time and resources to access.

Now, I'm all about mana efficiency. With those same resources, I could run a T2 Brainstorm, fetch-shuffle, play Ponder, all of which adds two new cards to my hand, dumps unwanted stuff like Tendrils or extra lands, and potentially fixes my next two draws. Sure, those draws probably won't have as much oomph as they would have coming from LDV, but it's powerful enough for this deck to succeed. Or, say it's g2/3 and my opponent has stuff I really don't want to see the light of day. I can T1 Discard, T2 Cantrip/Discard, which in my experience would generally leave me pretty safe to combo.

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I won't argue with you, as you're definitely right on the cantrips matter, esp. if it fits your playstyle. However having a instant-speed, cmc2 Doomsday possibility shouldn't be overlooked, even if it's a card disadvantage and a bit less effective than double cantrip. (Which configuration sadly can't be played from basic Island and basic Swamp if need for those lands arises.)

I urge you to give LDV a one more try, maybe just use a single one. I consider trying something similar. A build based on PiF, with eight fetches, two or three basics, lots of cantrips, and one of LDV plus AdN/EtW might be viable. I still can't decide which one of the secondary/tertiary engines I wish to use, but seen how EtW is working less and less in my meta (due to B-Skulls, Pulses, hordes, PiF combo and Deeds all over the place), I may just speed up the deck, give up the EtW plan and move it to sb keeping it for tempo matches... I read that turn2 AdN is > turn 3 EtW.

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Originally Posted by bjholmes3

On the topic of Lim-Dul's Vault: I do not reccommend adding it to your deck. There are a lot of reasons I can give if you ask me to, but the main issues I have with it are that on its own it doesn't make an immediate impact on the gamestate (ie more cards in hand, Storm's version of "board presence", I would say), for which it demands more resources.

As for Burning Wish, let me just say this. Having played the 16-cantrip build, my average gameplan has become something along the lines of cantrip/discard T1, cantrip+discard T2, win T3. This is simple because it requires only 2 colors (UB), and my mana base fully supports those two colors. At any time I can count on my deck to reliably produce lands giving me the mana I need for my early game work, allowing me to save my Petals for PiF or for post-Ad Nauseam action. Including Burning wish as a key card means that suddenly your deck depends on three colors to reliably produce you a win on an average of Turn 3. This requires you to either crack your petals early for Wish, or for you to use lands like your Badlands which will not allow you to fulfill all of the functions of your deck. Pre-combo turn, running a 2cmc prep spell cuts down on your actions-per-turn, making it much more difficult to dig+discard T2, say. During the combo turn, BW is nice as long as you can pay for it, but we're not worried about combo turn, we're worried about getting there. Also, this may be a non-issue, but if you're concerned about discard against you, Preordain is better in that sense than Wish because it puts things on top of your deck, safe and sound, instead of right smack in your hand for everyone to know it's there.

tl;dr, other decks, like TES, are faster than we are, but we are still competitive because we have an advantage of our own: disruption. We can't play all the same cards that they do, because we have a different gameplan. Balancing between dig and disruption pre-combo is something that makes us special.

If speed above all else is your objective, don't hesitate to consider other, faster combo decks.

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you are right about vault, but i think that burning wish is a really good card, but is a meta choice, i mean, with hatebears bw, or tnt, is just better, i mean, bw for virtues ruin and you can win, with ubg ant you cant beat a teeg md, but the problem with tnt is that splashing green for decay is awful with the manabase

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Originally Posted by SaberTooth

you are right about vault, but i think that burning wish is a really good card, but is a meta choice, i mean, with hatebears bw, or tnt, is just better, i mean, bw for virtues ruin and you can win, with ubg ant you cant beat a teeg md, but the problem with tnt is that splashing green for decay is awful with the manabase

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That's where Disfigure/ET/CoV may work better. After all, if your main concern are bears (moreover taxing ones) and not Counterbalance, than CoV is clearly better as it costs half the price, is on color and works as a storm engine if it matters.

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Originally Posted by bjholmes3

I'll admit, I haven't given Tim's Vault much of a chance. I just don't feel comfortable with the thing. I mean, like I said, having an Index on steroids is nice and all, but I dislike it for the same reason I prefer Ponder to aforementioned Index. I mean, consider the following. We are a shuffle-heavy deck, given our propensity for fetches and for tutors. Combined with our desired combo turn, let's say that we'll only ever see 2 or 3 cards From the Vault, at best (I arrived at this figure assuming EoT2 LDV, draw 1st T3, 2nd if it goes to T4 and we don't shuffle, and cantrip at some point into 3rd), and these are cards that take us time and resources to access.

Now, I'm all about mana efficiency. With those same resources, I could run a T2 Brainstorm, fetch-shuffle, play Ponder, all of which adds two new cards to my hand, dumps unwanted stuff like Tendrils or extra lands, and potentially fixes my next two draws. Sure, those draws probably won't have as much oomph as they would have coming from LDV, but it's powerful enough for this deck to succeed. Or, say it's g2/3 and my opponent has stuff I really don't want to see the light of day. I can T1 Discard, T2 Cantrip/Discard, which in my experience would generally leave me pretty safe to combo.

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I've been testing with Lim-Dul's Vault recently, and the more I test with it, the more I like it. Here's why: It's not a weakened Vampiric Tutor because it usually tutors for more than one card. I often end up in the situation with this deck where I need a Lion's Eye Diamond + any ritual to win, or an Infernal Tutor + any ritual, or Infernal Tutor + any land. In these situations it's usually possible to find both of these in a 5-card Lim-Dul's Vault stack at the end of my opponent's turn, draw into one, and then Gitaxian Probe (or Brainstorm or something) into the other so I can win on my turn. Any cantrip that you have in your hand allows Lim-Dul's vault to tutor more cards into your hand quickly. For this reason, I don't think the comparisons to Vampiric Tutor are perfect - the card often has a different role.

I'm not saying Lim-Dul's Vault is perfect, and it definitely has its weaknesses - but being able to tutor for more than one card can get you out of some insanely bad situations. It has been better in my testing than I'd expected it to be.

LDV feels poor at first but the more you use it the more fluid it feels. Being EoT is also often just amazing and with any cantrip in hand it can go off the same turn. I really came to love that card after dismissing it initially. Its also good at finding removal for teeg and friends.

I've been running 1 CoV main for awhile now and lately ive also been testing 1 cabal pit as well since it dodges mom and isnt taxed by thalia.

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

LDV feels poor at first but the more you use it the more fluid it feels. Being EoT is also often just amazing and with any cantrip in hand it can go off the same turn. I really came to love that card after dismissing it initially. Its also good at finding removal for teeg and friends.

I've been running 1 CoV main for awhile now and lately ive also been testing 1 cabal pit as well since it dodges mom and isnt taxed by thalia.

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I like the Cabal Pit idea.

That's a peculiar choice. What specifically are you trying to hit with the pit?

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Originally Posted by bjholmes3

That's a peculiar choice. What specifically are you trying to hit with the pit?

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Hatebear.

As in Thalia or Teeg specifically? Because I would say Karakas is a better choice for those buggers.

Heart of the Storm Vol. 5 - Hero's Come Back! is finally online on MTG TheSource! Check it out!

THx once more!!!
I'll keep chain of vapor to side in against hatebears at the same time i keep massacre / virtue's ruin for wishing.

Sorry but i'm to fixed to BW builds i prefer answers to speed. :)

So...TES or ANT¿?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umRU6iYO0R4

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bjholmes3
As in Thalia or Teeg specifically? Because I would say Karakas is a better choice for those buggers.

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Ya those mostly although other annoying non legendary hatebears too. Karakas is straight better for those and I do run one in the board but the on color of pit does matter at times for faster wins game 1. Its just an idea not sure ill stick with it yet or not but so far Ive liked upping the land count with something that doubles as an out. The life loss is also not really relevant.

Karakas doesn't add black and cannot remove Cannonist. Not that I gonna snap-swap one dual for Pit, but I still find it interesting!

Guys guys guys. I solved every hatebear problem for all time a couple pages ago. Teferi's Realm.

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Originally Posted by thefringthing

Guys guys guys. I solved every hatebear problem for all time a couple pages ago. Teferi's Realm.

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Can't tell if trolling or...

Has to be trolling. That card isn't even remotely close to being effective.

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Originally Posted by bjholmes3

Has to be trolling. That card isn't even remotely close to being effective.

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Three mana kinda-WoG is not exactly ineffective. It's no Curse of the Swine...

Against Thalia, you can't even use this card's effect until turn 5, unless you're willing to blow some acceleration on it. How's that for effective?

Is the volcanic absolutely necessary?

I'm playing this:
4 Delta
3 Tarn
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Sea
4 Gemstone Mine

I prefer more rainbows because after board the green splash is important. I like having 12 green sources postboard. Red is for past in Flame. And I think 4 Led 4 Petal and 4 Gemstone is enough.

If you are that late in the game where you can go for Past in Flames win, you will definitely have drawn one of your 12 rainbow sources. I feel the md volcanic is a waste and could be better as a rainbow.

The primary benefit for the Volcanic over more rainbows is that it is searchable by any of your fetches, and more resistant to Wasteland, among other things. The same logic applies to a boarded in Tropical Island.

I don't see how volcanic helps against wasteland. Anyway my logic is, I'd rather have more green than the red sources because red is only needed during the combo turn and can be produced of led and Petal. Green is absolute critical in the first few turns postboard to cast abrupt decay and xantid swarm. Cracking petals for swarms/decay is suboptimal while using petals or led for the red during the combo turn is totally fine.

I repeat, the duals see more use than rainbows because of the fetches. That's what makes them more Wasteland resistant, and that's what makes it viable to run singletons (of the duals, as opposed to multiple rainbows). Rainbow lands are not as viably tutorble, and are thus not as readily available. You say you want 12 green sources postboard, how about 16? That's how many you can have with a single Dual and 7 fetches.

All I'm saying is, I believe you would be more satisfied with your mana base if you ran 3 rainbows and 1 Volcanic (SB -1 rainbow +1 Tropical) than if you ran the 4 Rainbows.

I am still running tropical in the board.

I'm saying that I don't need red except on the combo turn so I don't need the volcanic. The 4th rainbow gives me an extra green source after board:

-1 island + 1 trop
4 rainbow, 7 fetches, 1 Island, 1 Swamp, 1 Sea, 1 trop

Basically I'm just saying that I want as much green as possible post board. And even though you keep a volcanic in the deck . Have never tutored for it with fetches because it simply isn't needed until the combo turn. I will always have either a sandbagged rainbow or led/Petal for red.

Since I have never fetched the volcanic, why not just run a rainbow over it so I have easier green postboard? Easy green is more critical than easy red imo. In my list, I don't run empty the Warrens or wishes so past in Flames is literally the only red card. I run 7 green cards in the board and they need to be cast prior to the combo turn which makes green much more important than red.

Anyway it's not critical since its just a minor tweak to the manabase.

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Originally Posted by bjholmes3

Against Thalia, you can't even use this card's effect until turn 5, unless you're willing to blow some acceleration on it. How's that for effective?

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It removes all the hatebears. Yes, Infest/Massacre/Virtue's Ruin does the same, but it can't be played preemptively and does not kill equipped dudes/Teeg/Ooze. also, it may remove Trinisphere, while Infest/Massacre/Virtue's Ruin can't.
Just saying. Not that I think it's the best answer to everything, just that it's pretty versatile.

In a hateful matchup, I'm a big believer in Slaughter Pact. The only times I hear of people losing from its drawback are from missed triggers and from times when they had to use it where they would've lost either way. The latter has been primarily my experience, once I started using the thing properly. It has proven to be incredibly useful to me, and it is theoretically one of the best single creature removal options available to our deck.

How many of you guys have tried ANT with Lim-Dul's Vault, as Carsten wrote about recently? It seems like a potentially powerful addition, but one that changes your lines of play (and would be one of the more skill-testing cards in the deck)?

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

How many of you guys have tried ANT with Lim-Dul's Vault, as Carsten wrote about recently? It seems like a potentially powerful addition, but one that changes your lines of play (and would be one of the more skill-testing cards in the deck)?

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Dunno, how proactive sorcery discard plays with the eot-nature of LDV. Will watch Carsten today in Berlin

Hey there!

Got a question about a situation :

Is there any play to avoid a fizzle when someone is hitting your LED before cracking it (with a Tear/Wear or an Abrupt Decy for instance) ?
Is my question clear? Because in any case when you put your LED he can just AD it and you can't play your tutor coz it's sorcery speed...

Thx for the answers!

Kid

After LED resolves you have priority, so before he can destroy it with anything (even with Krosan Grip) you can cast your tutor, hold priority and sac the LED.
So it does only work with 1 LED since the time you play the second, your first one can get destroyed in response.

Nope unless you have another avenue like PiF in hand/yard for the mana, or LDV + brainstorm for sheer desperation. I'm assuming your facing jund or similar where you are playing out your IMS to avoid discard? It's kinda as damned if you do damned if you don't. Playing them out is usually the safer bet though IME since they have more discard then artie removal.

Edit- I may have misunderstood the situation. If your playing as your going off holly has it right. I thought you were playing them in advance to dodge discard.

Holly is correct. To clarify, the play looks like this:

1.) Stack is empty, turn player (aka you) has priority
2.) You play Lion's Eye Diamond. It is put on the stack.
3.) You have the opportunity to play Instants or activate abilities. When you're done, you pass priority.
4.) The above, for your opponent. AD only affects permanents, so he obviously can't play it while LED is on the stack.
5.) LED resolves and enters the battlefield, and the turn player (aka you) gets priority.
6.) You cast Infernal Tutor. It is put on the stack.
7.) You have the opportunity to play Instants or activate abilities. You activate LED. When you're done, you pass priority.
8.) Your opponent may now play Instants or activate abilities. If he has countermagic, he could use it here. AD has no effect.

Thanks you guys for the answers! Mystery solved for me!

Really appreciate it! :)

Thanks again!

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Originally Posted by bjholmes3

In a hateful matchup, I'm a big believer in Slaughter Pact.

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Have you tried/compared Disfigure?

Against Thalia, for example, Disfigure is a Terror. Pact is a Sensei's Top. Pact, any day.

-ABC

Cabal pit is pact that kills thalia under moms watch.

Not quite. Pit essentially costs BB to cast, one for the cost and one for the land itself, so under Thalia, it's pretty much Disfigure through Mom. And let's not forget Threshold. Our deck has an easier time getting to it, but it's honestly not always there.

The main minus for Pit is that you can't go using it willy-nilly like you can with other creature-removal options. Karakas is permanent, unparentable removal, and Slaughter Pact is free, on combo turn, and slightly expensive otherwise. Other options have been discussed, like Massacre, Disfigure, and all the other goodies, which are all cheap or free, and you don't need threshold and an open land drop to play them.

Cabal Pit won't help your storm count, and it will make your mana base (in all probability) worse.

-ABC

EDIT::: I think Massacre is crap. It is stopped dead in its tracks by Teeg. Not the most threatening of Hate-Bears, but when it needs to be gone, Massacre is a massive let-down that is totally dead.