"Whenever a nontoken creature enters the battlefield, its controller loses life equal to its converted mana cost if they didn't cast it from their hand."
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"Whenever a nontoken creature enters the battlefield, its controller loses life equal to its converted mana cost if they didn't cast it from their hand."
S&T Hatebear - 1BG
Creature - Human Shaman
When ~ enters the battlefield, destroy target nonland permanent. Its controller puts a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield.
2/2
TNN Hatebear - 1R
Creature - Dwarf Soldier
Haste
Flanking
Provoke
2/1
Some twist on Tariff would do good for SnT, and, strangely enough, could be decent against TNN too. A 1 mana instant tariff could be decent enough already to be playable maindeck and make TNN much more manageable.
Seems narrow. Too narrow. It doesn't stop Omniscience. If you put it into play with S&T, it will also miss the crucial trigger because Emrakul is already in play.
While it doesn't exactly address the "cheated into play" issue since it would also hurt ramp players, I think this wording would proof to be more flexible and thus overall more playable:
Now you can slam it on the board in anticipation to Sneak Attack or whatever and it hits S&T stuff. It also has potential to kill Planeswalkers, but that's besides the point. If that ability is too good for Standard because Timmy cries about his ramp deck, make it Eternal-exclusive.Quote:
"Sacrifice ~: ~ deals damage to each player equal to the highest converted mana cost among permanents that player controls."
Before I read the last pages of the TNN thread I was against banning Brainstorm. It seemed to me like a pillar that Legacy needs or it would collapse. But then I read all those Go Blue! posts and damn are those posts arrogant.
If I understand the Go Blue! camp correctly: Brainstorm has to stay because it is a skillfull card (yeah, very skillfull: dig 3, find answer. My dog can do that...) and it makes the top tier decks so consistent. That is why all the pro's play Brainstorm. Without Brainstorm we would all depend on varience, so let's call that with the right word: luck. So what the Go Blue! camp is saying is actualy: because I play Death and Taxes I will never be a skillfull player and I will only win because I had more luck than my opponent?!?!
Well screw that! I now agree that we should test a ban on Brainstorm, ban it and revaluate it the next ban round. But you know what, to say it with the words of the Go Blue crowd: don't fear, the meta will adapt to it!
None of the above solves he BS/consistency issue, though.
As much as I love the card, Tariff is shitty. Unless you make it one mana instant, no one will play it, because right now there's that old Tariff that no one plays. I'm not sure if it's reasonable, because it could be too good, otoh, we have some one mana removal already available, so yeah, lets print either
- Path to Customhouse instant for W that makes all players pay-for-or-sac their most expensive creature (sadly this is just a worse Curfew and check how many of them is played), or
- Roam and Rang instant for WW that makes all players pay-for-or-sac/return their most expensive permanent (but this would be a weird narrow card)
These also don't solve the consistency/filtering issue. I'm quite fine with the idea of color pie that prevents gren from killing creatures, black from destroying artifacts, etc., but only as long as some conditions are fulfilled:
- color pie is strict, not that blue can everything while the poor remaining colors just suck
- there's a filtering/draw in other colors so that they may get to their cards that still follow the rules of color pie, yet the players are not limited to topdeck them.
I think that blue's power of manipulation is seriously overdone and as there's some card in every set, it won'tget better. Been able to draw what you need, avoid floods/screws, unmulligan, raw card draw, these all are very important features that decide who wins the game. A player/color with better tools for these tasks wins in a longer run, because all things equal, the more consistent deck wins. After all it doesn't matter if your win condition is Alert Shu Infantry or Belbe's Percher, but the fact that you draw it when you need and whenever you need it, decides the game.
White could use some kind of Sylvan Library / Island Sanctuary remake:
Sylvan Sanctuary :w::w:
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep
look at the top three cards of your library
and put them back in any order.
You may skip your draw step. If you do so,
creatures without flying or islandwalk can't
attack you until your next turn.
Blue has enough of filtering tools.
Black could get some draw, the only trouble is how to make it useless in blue decks, esp. in combo.
Make Imps :b::b:
Tribal Sorcery - Imp
Put a black 1/1 token named Small Imp
onto the battlefield, then lose X life
and draw X cards where X is the number
of imp creatures you control.
Red might get non-random Looting.
Better Tibalt :r::r:
Planeswalker - Tibalt
+1: Discard a card, then draw a card.
+0: Put a red 1/1 Human token otb.
It has "First strike on opponents' turns".
-6: Each opponent sacrifices all lands.
2
Green is easy, it gets some kind of cantrip owl.
Sage Sprite :g::g:
Creature - Faerie Advisor
Flying
When ~ etb, scry 2, then draw a card.
1/1
EDIT:
Brainstorm hosers. Some of them might be too powerful for Standard, so lets introduce them via Commander or similar products.
Boros Jailhouse (WR)
Enchantment
Whenever any opponent draws a card
outside that player's draw step,
you gain two life and ~ deals 2 dmg to
that player.
Aven Mightcensor (WB)
Creature - Bird Something
Flash
Flying
When ~ etb, players can't draw cards until eot.
"Neverrrmorrre!"
1/1
Savannah Dude (WG)
Creature - Cat Spirit
If a player would draw a card, that player may pay :x:
where X is Savanah Dude's power. If that player doesn't,
he or she skips that draw.
"Meow!"
1/1
Underworld Imp (BR)
Creature - Imp Shaman
Whenever an opponent draws a card,
~ deals two damage to that player.
1/1
Orzhov Tavern (BW)
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep choose an opponent.
That player skips all draws until your next upkeep.
That player may pay :2: to ignore this effect until eot.
"I won't try the mushrooms." - Norin the Wary.
Bayou Dude (BG)
Creature - Ooze Thallid
Whenever a player draws a card, put a
1/1 Fungus token otb.
Sac three Fungi: each opponent discards a card.
2/2
Goblin Anathemancer (RB)
Creature - Goblin Shaman
If a player would put a card on top of library,
that player puts two cards on top of library instead.
2/2
Heroes vs. Monsters (RW)
Tribal Enchantment - Minotaur Knight
If a player would draw a card, that
player instead searches his or her library
for a creature card, reveals it, puts it into hand
and then shuffles the library.
Taiga Dude (RG)
Creature - Rare Kavu Hatebear
Blue spells cost additional :u:
more to play.
2/2
Stomping Ground Dude (GR)
Creature - Uncommon Kavu Hatebear
Blue spells cost additional :1:
more to play.
"Roarrr!"
2/2
Chapel of Still Mind (GW)
Enchantment
Spells that draw cards can't be played.
Golgari Trading Post (GB)
Enchantment
As ~ etb, choose an opponent.
Whenever chosen opponent draws two
or more cards from one effect or spell,
that player discards a card.
A game like MTG has to stay unfair to preserve its appeal and Blue offers this feeling of supremacy as it's clearly advantageous to other colors which still get played regardless. I think we all know that Brainstorm should get banned because you can cite plenty of convincing and well-founded reasons for a ban of it and pretty much every criteria of previous bans applies to the card well. In my view, the reason Wizards doesn't take action against it is because people seem to be fine with the ills of the format and welcome blue's dominance after all.
That argument is flawed. Not about Brainstorm but about people welcoming blues dormancy. I personally would love to see all colours equal, I play mostly Red. I see blue as the path of lest resistance and I look at the people that play nothing but blue the same way I look on people whom play Xcom on easy. Your welcome to play the game, but your not getting the full experience.
Haha, ok cute, now your going to attack me personally. I like where this is going. Decks I play include Painter, Elves, Dredge and Goblins. Not a single one is easy to play. So yea, I play red, I like red, that does not make me an unskilled player looking for easy wins.
Also, you should read some of my posts and you will see my views on Brainstorm. They do include that the card takes skill, but it take less skill to play a deck that let's you pick the next 3 cards, then the next 3 cards, then the next 3 cards. That's not skill, Ponder, Preordain, Brainstorm, you add them up and your not talking skill, your talking taking the easy way out of trying to make a deck work.
Here is something to think about. I drop a Ringleader and I am at the mercy of that top deck, I do not have to like it, but I have to play around it. It actually takes more skill to know when to pull the trigger on cards, when to play what and when to risk a top deck only situation when you do not have the safety net that is filtering. Yea, I play mostly Red, and I am fucking proud of it. Because it shows I have learnt long ago how to play without that net others just can not live without.
Oh and don't get me wrong, I know that net wins games, I know it's the best way to play if you want to win consistently, but I have an age old unnatural love for Onslaught Goblins, so yea, take your blue and go and play it for me. That way your Forces can keep Beltcher from killing me with more goblins than I have in my whole deck. I will respect your choice to play the easy way, but that doesn't mean I have to take your shit if you want to belittle my choice.
Dice.
This is utterly incorrect; Doomsday is the most powerful and most skill-intensive spell in Legacy. Brainstorm is the most broken draw spell in Legacy; it allows you to:
1) See multiple cards on turn one unaided;
2) Avoid discard, to a point;
3) Considerably increase consistency in conjunction with fetchlands; and
4) Increases round-times (though admitedly not on the scale of SDT).
BS the most-powerful one-drop in Legacy - it's why most Blue decks start their lists with "4 Brainstorm".
Brainstorm does not need a ban or an answer. While it is very easily the most powerful 1-drop cantrip in Legacy and enables consistency for blue decks, it also promotes all forms of non-aggro that decide to splash blue for consistency.
That includes at least (4 (U+1 colors) + 6 (U+2 colors) + 4 (U+3 colors) + 1 (U+4 colors)) * 4 (combo, tempo, midrange, control) = 60 possible archetypes/color+strategy combinations aided by Brainstorm. Granted, not all of these put up results OR use brainstorm, but to simply say it deserves a ban because of its power-level is ridiculous when it actually helps diversify a format as opposed to polarizing it.
And before someone says, "but what about non-blue decks and/or aggro decks?", let me ask y'all if you seriously think its a smart idea to not run blue for Force of Will (or any decent counterspell/disruption for that matter) in a format with some of the most game-breaking spells and combos available?
I think to say one this or that is more skill intensive is a bit bold to say, as different things are more, or less skill intensive for different people depending on how they play.
Having said that, I'll go back to what this thread is and post as I have every so often in a while, that they really need to just unban Mind Twist. Even if they did, I doubt it'd see format warping play. People are using their dumping their hands for enough mana to kill people on turn 1, or make a bunch of 1/1 goblins. Not many will trade in a potential turn 1 kill, for a lesser turn 1 "your hand is gone, pass."
TL:DR? Unban Mindtwist already!
Brainstorm does not need a ban or an answer all it needs is everyone to play it and stop playing non blue decks? That's your suggestion? That's... I got nothing I can say to that.
While I don't think Brainstorm needs a ban, it would be nice if there were more reasons to not play it. Right now it's risk free beyond Chains of Mephistopheles and Notion Thief. If they gave other colors the tools to punish greedy card draw, then it won't look as appealing to players. Print something like
orQuote:
Screw You Brainstorm
:1::r:
Creature - Dwarf Berserker
First Strike
If an opponent would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in each of his or her draw steps, Screw You Brainstorm deals damage for each card drawn.
2/1
Suddenly, colors that are not blue give blue players reason not to auto-include 4 brainstorm into every list ever. They still will, but now it comes with a trade off, and that's the point.Quote:
Butterfly Tender
:1::g::g:
Creature - Snake Shaman Rebel
If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in his or her draw step each turn, instead the player puts a 0/1 Butterfly token into play.
Butterflies have " :1:, sacrifice this creature: draw a card"
1/3
Of course you have nothing to say to that because that's not what I said. All I said was Brainstorm does not need a ban or an answer, because it actually diversifies the format, despite the lack of non-blue decks.
If anything, I suggest creating better cantrips for the other colors as well as better disruption, most notably for red and green.
You said Brainstorm does not need a ban or a ballancer because it's the most powerful card that everyone can splash for. Then you add why would you play anything but a deck with force. In short, why play anything other than a blue deck running Brainstorm and Forces.
Personally that's not an answer to the issue, that's a recipe for disaster.
@Pirate King: Butterfly Tender is an interesting concept, but needs tweaking
How exactly does the last wording work? In case of Brainstorm 1+2+3 = 6 damage?
I see various problems the way this card works - the main problem is that it's asymmetrical. Brainstorm decks would run it to fight other Brainstorm decks which brings us back to the core issue why Brainstorm reigns supreme: Shitty hate.
Another problem is the combo issue: Make your opponent draw 6 cards in a turn - instagib him. Even less in multiples. Do we really need a hate card that is probably besser used as a combo finisher, working especially well with blue draw? :eyebrow:
I think the card would work better like this:
More consistent against normal cantrips while still being strong against Draw 7s, no combo potential and now its an extremely bad idea to run him alongside cantrips.Quote:
Screw You Brainstorm :1::r:
Creature - Dwarf Berserker
First Strike
Whenever a spell or ability causes a player to draw a card, Screw You Brainstorm deals 2 damage to its controller.
2/1
@Barook: I didn't try too hard at the wording, because Chains as a starting point is hard. But a free lightning bolt against a player who brainstorms, basically. If they draw once a turn like a good boy, then it's a Youthful Knight in red. Once they start drawing extra cards, it's that much damage. Doesn't stop the draw exactly, but gives reason to not just automatically do it whenever available. That's what I'd like to see. Not to kill Brainstorm, just to make it without risk. We all still use fetch lands, despite Stifle. Some of us run no basics, despite Blood Moon. Even with a single basic, you're still in a bad place. Same could be true for Brainstorm.
A short story to explain why I think this way:
I was playing Elves against Omnishow and sided in Ruric Thar, NO him in and let the guy read him. On his turn he untaps and Brainstorms looking for an answer.
Him. "Tap Island, Brainstorm."
Me: "Thar Trigger, take 6 damage."
Him: "Wait what?"
Me: "Read him again. 6."
My thoughts on a card that hits for Brainstorm, if it's a two drop matching Thar, it's too powerful. If it's a two drop that's going to totally Hose Omnishow, keep that in mind when designing it. I do not feel that a 2 drop should deal 2 damage on each card drawn but deal 3 and trigger on the resolution of the spell in question. Maybe 2 if in testing 3 is found to be too high. But a 2 drop should not deal 6 damage to a Brainstorm player playing just one card.
Also, thinking about it. This thing would totally Fuck Dredge if printed as advertised right now.
Maybe you should just not play Brainstorm when said guy in play? Maybe that's the point of the hate card to not play Brainstorm like a trained monkey? Unlike Meddling Mage, there's still room to make the decision to take 6 and still play Brainstorm.
Dredge wouldn't give a single fuck since dredging =|= drawing.
This seems to be why a lot of people don't like Brainstorm or blue in general. There are too many blue cards that get played in legacy, they say.
Well... You are allowed to not like that about the format. But banning a card because of it's color is ridiculous. Banning Brainstorm so blue gets played less is ridiculous. If you want representation of the whole color scheme then just play whatever you colors you want to play. Or even better... and I don't mean this as a personal jibe against people who want to ban Brainstorm... But play casual with your friends. Play EDH. You can literally play whatever you want there with no repercussions.
I'm not going to get entrenched in this played out debate... But I just wanted to say that stuff shouldn't get banned in constructed formats so that other colors see more play...
I do not agree that 6 damage on Brainstorm is a fair punishment. It's too strong. Just because you hate a card does not mean you should overlook the serious balancing issues that this guy can create. A two drop that's hoses Omnishow as well seams off. Meanwhile it does relatively little against Ponder and Preordain. I feel like the damage would be best at a flat, capped amount. No one playing Brainstorm into 3 damage is going to do it like a trained monkey, they will do it out of desperation seeking Wish so they can get an answer.
I may be alone here, but I feel like you need to separate your feelings for the card in question before you make hate for it. If not you end up like the DCI making every possible flavour of grave hate because they regret making Dredge. Make sure what your doing is fair and still keeps the game fun. Hate for Brainstorm should not actively remove the fun from those that still enjoy playing it.
Let's try a different approach, k?
Rakdos Storm Hate - (B/R)
Enchantment
Whenever an opponent casts a spell, put a soul counter on ~.
At the beginning of your upkeep, remove all soul counters from ~.
Remove a soul counter from ~: ~ deals X damage to target opponent, where X is the number of spells or abilities that opponent controls.
Selesnya Storm Hate - (G/W)
Enchantment
Whenever an opponent casts a spell, put a soul counter on ~.
At the beginning of your upkeep, remove all soul counters from ~.
Remove a soul counter from ~: Put X 1/1 green and white plant tokens onto the battlefield and gain X life, where X is the number of spells or abilities target opponent controls.
Golgari Show and Tell/True-Name Nemesis Hatebear - 1BG
Creature - Human Shaman
As ~ enters the battlefield, name a nonland card.
Activated abilities of the named card can't be played.
When ~ enters the battlefield, destroy all permanents with the chosen name. For each permanent destroyed this way, its controller puts a 2/2 black and green zombie token onto the battlefield.
2/2
Boros Show and Tell/True-Name Nemesis Hatebear - 1RW
Creature - Human Soldier
As ~ enters the battlefield, name a nonland card.
Activated abilities of the named card can't be played.
Creatures with the chosen name cannot attack or block.
2/2
That's what I mean by better disruption for the other colors: something that basically threatens the viability of combo.
As far as better dig ... I had a few ideas early on in the Shitty Card Creation thread.
@Dice Box: To be clear, you are talking about Ruric Thar when you say 6 damage, not my poorly written abortion, correct? Because that was not my attempt. And maybe punishment is a bad word. Too much baggage attached. Same with balance. Not trying to balance anything. I am, but that cause too much trouble to say. What I want is a con to mingle with the pro of the card. Even the most powerful spells thrown around in this format have cons. Force of Will is painful card disadvantage. Dual lands have Wasteland. If they don't have duals, your Wastelands are useless. But they're still played, because the pros outweigh the cons.
That should be the goal. Some card to form a relationship with Brainstorm similar to our beloved Stifle-Fetch, adored by all since 2003.
Ah, the good ol' "if you don't like it you can leave" counter-argument. I'm sure some said the same when MM and Survival were being advocated to be banned as well. Note that I'm not arguing against Brainstorm in the format, I'm arguing against bad arguments used to defend the card. There's nothing wrong with having a discussion or thought-experiment to see if the format would be better served with the removal of a card.
There is only one reason to ban a card in Legacy: to diversify the format because the card in question polarized said format.
Now ask yourself: if we banned Brainstorm, would it actually diversify anything? I honestly doubt it: blue decks would still be ran to offset combo. Hence why I'd rather endorse better disruption for other colors rather than a silly ban on Brainstorm
As for other blue cards that see quite a bit of play:
-Banning of Force of Will would actually polarize the format even more, as there would be nothing to deter fast combo from going all in turn 1 on the play.
-Banning of True-Name Nemesis wouldn't do anything, except maybe decrease the validity of SFM.dec (so in a way, it actually polarizes the format as well, though not as badly as banning Force of Will).
-Banning of Show and Tell might help, but then again, there is a severe lack of cards that actually answer everything Show and Tell can do. If more suitable hate were printed, it'd be ok.
@King
Yea and your build possibly firing off on each card drawn for a total of 6 dam on a Brainstorm.
Had some thought and came up with 3 ideas.
Greno the Combat Wombat (1)(R)
Legendary creature
As ~ enters the battlefield, put 3 -1/-1 counters on it.
When a spell or ability would make an opponent draw a card, remove a counter from ~.
If there is no -1/-1 counters on ~, ~ gains Double strike.
5/5
Greno the Wall Wombat (1)(R)
Legendary creature
Defender
If an a spell or ability would cause an opponent to draw a card, put a -1/-1 counter on ~. Whenever a counter is placed on ~ this way, ~ deals damage to target opponent equal to the amount of counters on it.
5/5
Greno the flame welding Wombat (1)(R)(R)
Legendary creature
First strike
As ~ enters play, put any amount of -1/-1 on it. Whenever a spell or ability would cause its controller to draw a card, ~ deals damage to that player equal to the amount of counters on it.
4/4
Thoughts?
@ Wombats: 5/5 for 2 or 3 monocolored is kinda pushing the envelope in terms of vanilla beaters (even Goyf needs to build up to that, and Jotun Grunt has Culmulative Upkeep and rarely sees play).
I'd suggest the following if a draw punisher is actually needed:
Spiteful Devil - R
Creature - Devil
Whenever a player draws a card, Spiteful Devil deals 1 damage to them.
1/1
Looks weak on the surface, but when you factor in that this Bolts a player each time they brainstorm in addition to Timming them when they draw for turn AND swinging in the redzone for 1, then you're looking at a pretty nifty clock against most forms of blue non-aggro.
Well the 5/5 starts as a 2/2 and the other has defender.
I do like your idea, but I still feel like the card should treat Brainstorm, Ponder and Preordain as equals. You should take the same damage regardless of which one you play.
I think it's entirely plausible that non-blue midrange/aggro decks would see more play in said environment. Yes, blue decks would still be ran, removing Brainstorm wouldn't completely neuter them. Many combo decks also run Brainstorm so there are other effects to consider.
I agree it's better to elevate the other four colors than bring blue down but I don't feel confident that future releases will help achieve this.
@ Davelin: Fair enough. It's sad that contemporary design philosophy prevents Wizard's R&D from fixing the mistakes they've already made.
@ Dice: Ah: must have misread the first one (seemed like you put -1/-1 counters on it instead of removing them). As far as Brainstorm vs. Ponder/Preordain, there really isn't a way to punish both "Draw X, return/discard Y" and "Scry/see Top X, draw 1" because while the amount you actually see is more than likely the same, they both use different mechanics for doing so.
I thought the was the B&R thread not the Obligatory Shitty Card Excretion thread.
In a format as large as legacy, there are already a ton of cards that individually shut down a combo archetype in specific colors.
White: Rule of law, cannonist, thalia, silence, rest in peace, karakas, oblivion ring, enlightened tutor
Blue: Countermagic, gilded drake, snapcaster, counterbalance, v clique in response, curfew
Red: confusion in the ranks, stingscourger, red elemental blast, pyroblast (admittedly weak selection)
green: willow satyr, worldspine wurm (weakest selection)
black: discard, chains of meph, nether void, innocent blood, surgical extraction
multicolor: deathrite shaman, gaddock teeg, knight of the reliquary, meddling mage, detention sphere, angel of despair, ashen rider, notion thief
colorless: chalice of the void, trinisphere, grafdigger's cage, ensnaring bridge, pithing needle, phyrexian revoker, mindbreak trap, duplicant
The issue is most are not good outside of the matches they are insane in. There is no point printing cards that are replacing other cards in the sideboard. If you want a card to be effective, it has to be maindeck material. the cards you listed are fine against the decks you listed, but I'd never want one of them against a fair matchup since they don't do much of anything.
What combo deck in particular do you think needs to have its validity threatened? Why?
That's why I'm sad no one commented on my flood of shitty cards... :frown:
Exalted Mystic (WW)
Creature - Cleric Knight
Exalted
Whenever a spell or ability causes
its controller to draw a card,
that player can't play spells until eot.
1/2
Winged Deceiver (UU)
Creature - Djinn
Flying
Blue spells cost :2: more to cast.
2/3
Braindead Hater (BB)
Creature - Zombie Zombie
Fear
If a player would put a card
on the top of library from hand,
that player exiles a card from
his hand instead.
2/1
Book-Burning Emissary (RR)
Creature - Efreet
:r:: +1/+0 until eot.
On each turn counter the first blue spell
cast, unless any player pays one life.
1/3
Marshland Gureillas (GG)
Creature - Human Rebel Soldier
Pro: black
Blue instants cost additional :1: to cast.
2/2