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Your first is sort of ridiculous. You need a STP immediately against Xantid Swarm, and you're probably dead within 2 turns against Dark Confidant.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnziD
Your second point seems spot-on. I think perhaps you're doing the right thing, but it's not coming through in this argument.
Hi guys.
I was hoping to get some feedback on my sideboarding strategies. First, here is my list:
Land
1x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
5x Island
2x Karakas
1x Mountain
2x Plains
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Tundra
1x Volcanic Island
Creature
1x Snapcaster Mage
3x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
Planeswalker
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Instant
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Spell Pierce
2x Swords to Plowshares
Sorcery
1x Council's Judgment
2x Entreat the Angels
4x Terminus
Enchantment
4x Counterbalance
Artifact
4x Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard
1x Council's Judgment
1x Entreat the Angels
2x Flusterstorm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rest in Peace
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Wear / Tear
1 Open slot
BUG Delver/Shardless
Out
4x Counterbalance
4x Force of Will
In
2x Blast
1x Council's Judgment
1x Venser
1x Entreat
1x Wear / Tear
1x Needle
1x Supreme Verdict
RUG Delver
Out
1x Venser
4x Force of Will
In
2x Rest in Peace
2x Blast
1x Supreme Verdict
UWR Delver
Out
1x Venser
4x Force of Will
In
2x Blast
1x Wear / Tear
1x Council's Judgment
1x Supreme Verdict
D&T
Out
4x Counterbalance
2x Blast
In
1x Entreat
1x Wear / Tear
1x Needle
1x Staticaster
1x Council's Judgment
1x XXXX
Elves
Out
2x Blast
1x Venser
In
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Wear / Tear
1x Staticaster
Sneak & Show
Out
4x Terminus
2x StP
In
2x Blast
2x Flusterstorm
1x Venser
1x Needle
ANT
Out
4x Terminus
2x StP
1x Venser
1x Council's Judgment
In
2x Blast
2x Flusterstorm
1x Staticaster
2x RIP
1x Grafdigger's Cage
Dredge
Out
1x Council's Judgment
2x Blast
2x Jace
In
2x RIP
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Venser
Deathblade
Out
4x Force of Will
2x XXXX
In
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Venser
1x Council's Judgmnet
1x Wear / Tear
2x Blast
Stoneblade
Out
4x Force of Will
In
2x Blast
1x Wear / Tear
1x Council's Judgment
Miracles
Out
4x Terminus
2x StP
1x Council's Judgment
In
2x Blast
1x Wear / Tear
2x Flusterstorm
1x Venser
1x Entreat
As the attentive reader has noticed, there are some holes in my strategy. The most obvious are marked with "XXXX" and I would appreciate any help in filling out these blanks. Also, I have a open spot in my SB and would appreciate any suggestions to what should fill that spot. Finally, if you think my SB strategy against some of the mentioned decks are completely off, I would also like to hear suggestions here.
Sorry for the wall of text btw ;)
/Rook
EDIT: I'm gonna end with a sketchy idea - Long-Term Plans - has anyone ever considered this card as a one off? :D
Play a Blood Moon. Card is really overperforming for me, and i don't understand why it's not a SB staple.
Hello,
I just want to ask if anyone tried out Plateau instead of the Volcanic?
Because it is also fetchable with 8 Lands and solves double white and red problems. It also solves the problem that you might losing a blue too when they waste your volcanic. This means if they waste a plateau they get red and only white which allows you to still have double blue.
I addtion to that it is better in the ideal 3 turn land combination of Island Island Plateau then a Volcanic would be because as I mentioned before a wasteland would kill your double blue. Also it is better then a Mountain here because it provides white as well.
Best Regards Teveshszat
I have never played Plateau but i think you can play it depending on your list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teveshszat
I play 22 lands, 2 ponder, 2 Counterspells, Keranos and 2 Blasts in the maindeck, so triple Volcanic is better. If i don't play Ponder and f.ex 23 lands running Plateau is an option for me. But before i play Karakas, Mystic Gate AND Plateau together, i would rather commit suicide.
I would not play Plateau in place of one of the 2 Volcanics. Maybe as a 3rd red source, but not as a replacement. The red is mostly for red blast, which is mostly for combo and control matchups were you turn into a UR deck, with little to no white cards left in the deck. When you are in those matchups, the worst land in your deck is basic plains since it might as well be colorless and all of your important spells either cost UU or R. Plateau does not seem much better. Making UU or even UUU for casting snaps or multiple counters in a turn is too important against the MUs you want red cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teveshszat
Hello,
yeah against combo you have a point but even then I keep swords against Swarms and deepending on their kill option maybe terminus 1 or 2 Terminus against their warrens.
against other Conrtol decks I want options for soild Jugements and or Absent against walkers, Gods or other stuff we have a hard time
when it hits but also want Red Blasts to enhance my counter and removal suit.
But then against Tempo Decks I want red without the fear of losing blue when fetching for it because of the wasteland. I again want solid Jugement options in turn 4.
If I fetch for Avolcanic I can only do 1 half of that. If I fetch for a Plateau I can do both.
So what I think I its worthy to try out is some 1/1 or 2/1 split. The Reason is that you could ajust you manabase better to the current siuation when you have the Plateau and Volcanic Otpion.
So I think I will try out this a look how it works out.
Best Regards Teveshszat
I like plateau a lot, but that's because I also run fire/groves, so I have a lot more red than most. While I love getting island + plateau, I'm not sure most miracle lists want the plateau though. I certainly don't think it's bad though. Also, be careful in thinking about how plateau is "helping" you not lose UU to mana denial. When you get a plateau you never had that second blue source to begin with, so you're not really protecting yourself from losing UU when getting plateau. In fact, if you have a manabase of plateau + two blue sources they can waste you away from UU (assuming one U source is nonbasic) compared to if you had 3 blue sources where they couldn't.
Against Elves, I like Venser pretty well. He's good against Natural Order and Abrupt Decay. Jace can be clunky here and you can always board out the 23rd land against non-Wasteland decks (particularly fast ones).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rook1e
For Dredge, I'd definitely leave in the REBs and would probably bring in more. REBing your own creatures to kill Bridges is a totally reasonable line. Counterbalance is pretty lackluster against Dredge.
In the mirror, I'd leave in the Council's Judgment and just wouldn't board in the third Entreat.
Everything else seems mostly alright. The last slot could probably either be a second Supreme Verdict or a Blood Moon.
Are you only running the 1 copy in your sideboard? How frequently are you able to dig for that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
Why do decks play Vendilion Clique? I see that it is a good card, but I can't see any synergies with other cards in the deck. Am I missing some synergies? Or is the ccard just that strong?
I play an extra Snapcaster and an extra Council's Judgment in my deck compared to most other builds instead of two Vendilion Clique. But I don't know why other like to play the Clique.
Plateau is fine. If you run enlightened tutor and blood moon the plateau enables island-island-blood moon for example. If I did not play Keranos or if I was fine with having my red source wastelanded I think I would play plateau over mountain again. I am worried about wasteland from decks with TNN and Ancestral Vision so I keep mountain for now.
Currently testing Izzet Staticaster in my Venser slot.
You obviously have not been watching Lossett's stream.Quote:
Originally Posted by autonom
1. Pressure opponent's planeswalker, since creatures without flying can't get to opponent's planeswalker in general.
2. Unlike Snapcaster, Clique can actually block a flipped Delver, can trade a threshold mongoose.
3. Unlike Snapcaster, Clique can respond to Stoneforge activation, completely blank equipments. Same logic applies to Vial activation.
4. Unlike Snapcaster, you can lead with Clique at opponent's EoT to check his hand, try to clear the path to land your Entreat/Jace/CB on your own turn.
5. Unlike Snapcaster, you can combo it with Karakas, block-bounce, or just Clique your opponent every draw step to take out his combo piece.
In short, yes, you're missing a lot of things.
Very good post. In addition to that i feel like Snapcaster is overrated. Snapcaster forces you to use StP on a DRS almost immediately. Not sure a Turn one DRS is worth that. What do you guys think/do in that situation (especially those that run 3 of them)?Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
If there is a land in the grave, I would seriously consider bolting the bird.
I bolt the bird 99% of the time, snapcaster or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by decan
Clique cycles drawn miracles which is the most valuable aspect of it imo. There are also a lot of "fancy" things you can do with clique, i.e trigger terminus and save clique with karakas, mess up spirit of the labyrinth, mess up opponents counterbalance etcetc.
Clique is almost mwp. You can do countless things with our beloved fae. I once triggered a Entreat with a clique to make enough blockers to survive and win the following turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackan
Yeah, like I said, it's an annoyance.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyC27
Bad Matchups that I can think of off the top of my head are 12-Post which is damn near impossible, as well as UB Tezzerator, which is almost never played, as it dies to the Aburpt Decay/Wasteland decks. Some consider D&T a bad matchup, and shardless a bad matchup, but I honestly think that both of these are fine if you know your deck well enough. Batterskull does nothing vs. Death and Taxes, as it'll likely just get it's token flashed into oblivion via flickerwisp, and does as much to shardless as BUG Delver does, but Shardless normally has the upside of being able to just 1for1 the token with a Strix.
Clique is sometimes a difficult card to evaluate, because on the surface none of the things it does (or can do) appear as a singular reason to run the card. However, when you add together all of the things it can do it starts to become a card which provides a lot of value to your plays. Personally, I run Clique mostly for two reasons. Clique is very powerful as a disruptive information play. In this way you can plan your hand to play around theirs, while also getting rid of something you can't (or don't want to) deal with. Hopefully in exchange for something less threatening. Secondly, Clique is one of the best win conditions versus combo decks, as it gives you disruption and a clock both at instant speed.
Except it's the actual opposite. Strix and whisp are sided out more often than not and even if the germ dies we are up a card. in the case of shardless re-equipping is actually great.Quote:
Originally Posted by exallium
Fair enough. I'm still on the side of I'd rather the 3 slots for something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackan
This is solid advice. BUG's scariest t2 plays are always Hymn and Liliana. It depends on what land BUG led with (ie could they still cast a Hymn without Deathrite?), if there's a land in the GY, how susceptible my hand is to Hymn or to Liliana (do I have Brainstorm, Terminus, Council's Judgment?), etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Recently I've seen a wave of in between BUG Delver and Shardless BUG decks. They run some combinations of Stifle/TNN/Jace MD. I suspect they cut Daze for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
None of them seems to run the Shardless Vision package. Is this a LGS thing or is this a trend I didn't spot?
There have been some bug delver lists recently opting to run Stifle, and I've seen some running Shardless in the board, but I honestly think the two decks stand strongest if they stand apart. They're both trying to execute different strategies, even if they share the same colors.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
I've seen some hybrid lists as well. Mostly people trying to jam TNN or maybe a Jace or two into Delver.
Yeah, I could just be playing it wrong, but I hate drawing Swords in that matchup and am glad to dump it on a Deathrite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Shardless is catching up to Miracles on MODO as the second most successful deck. I think a lot of it's got to do with it countering Miracles somewhat while having the low skill-floor of a Jund deck. Still, I've actually been feeling that Shardless and BUG Delver are positive matchups. Shardless has that slot machine effect, where they sometimes play 3 Agents and hit 3 Ancestrals, but I feel like it's mostly Lejay or other known grinders that get me with these blue midrange decks. And the games are always extremely close and often involve me misplaying.
With Shardless being so popular, I tried Blood Moon and cut it after never wanting to resolve it in multiple games where I drew it. In a game against Lejay on Shardless, he had one of his basics out and I was already ahead and rushing to catch up on clock for a game 3, so I never played it. The following game he perceptively fetched his 2 basics, and it appears that 90% of the daily cashing decks are running basic swamp and forest. Have they just recently started copying him? I'm not sure if he streams or not, but I'm assuming that the better Shardless players will actively play around Blood Moon. Especially when they board up to 4 Thoughtseize. It really seemed like a win-more card that's apt to get Thoughtseized more than anything else. The feeling I get playing this matchup is that we win when the game goes long, and boarding into a clunkier build seems wrong. I do wish I could run it in the board a little longer, but I'm not the patient.
Keranos is the next to go on the chopping block. As the most expensive card in the deck, he seems to like to hang out in your hand till he can get Thoughtseized. That or show up in the top 3 cards of your deck when you have no red, and Entreat quite obviously would be gg. The card seems so promising if it does work, though.
Ein played against Lejay and Lejay won more as well. Both Lejay and Bahra run BUG of some kinds and Bahra streams. Here's the problem with Entreat, you assume board is clean and Entreat will resolve. A lot of time that's not the case. Entreat doesn't save you from Tarpit, StP does. Even if you Entreat for Lethal, it's possible BUG just Abrupt Decay a token and kill you on the swing back. That's not to mention if the board has Lili and/or Jace from the BUG side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
Here's problem with Keranos, ideally you want to float it until you are ready to cast it. However, often I'm forced to shuffle it away because I'm looking for removal. When I do stabilize and have a clean board, Keranos is nowhere to be seen (yes, I have multiple Ponders and Snapcasters in my deck). Overall, I still believe Keranos is a solid win condition against any decks that don't have Blasts and Rishadan Ports.
So here's a random hypothetical...
It's game 2 and it's turn four (you're on the play) against Doomsday. You have Counterbalance and four land in play (one is an uncracked fetch) with Venser, Jace, and REB in hand. Your opponent Abrupt Decays your Counterbalance at the end of your turn (with six cards in hand).
Your first choice is:
Do you trigger the Counterbalance and see what's on top?
Or do you crack the fetch then trigger Counterbalance?
(assume that either way you see a Flusterstorm)
Your second choice is:
Do you let the Counterbalance die?
Do you Venser the Counterbalance to hand?
Do you Venser the Abrupt Decay back to their hand?
I think you're pretty dead. To answer your question, I'll let CB die. Usually Doomsday would start the combo turn with either a Duress or Silence. Since you have a CB in play, he'll just fish for AD and luckily for him he had it from the start. Hence, your best bet is to hope he has a Duress not Silence, and upon seeing Venser, he cannot go for Doomsday because insufficient mana of correct color.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Yeah you're pretty boned here. I'd let it die, and then hope for duress. I'd just let the duress resolve and show I have venser up. If he does silence, I'm dead unless I do SOMETHING, so I'd likely (given 3 cards in hand that I'd assume my opponent doesn't know about) cast the venser into it, and make like I had force of will. It's a hard bluff, but as said, if he resolves silence and you do nothing, you're just dead. If you bounce the silence he can either a) cast it again, and perhaps not have the mana to go off or b) just 'go for it' or c) wait a turn and try again, at which point you'll have 2 power on the board and a reb + fluster in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Have any of you guys had trouble beating RG Lands? I lost to Kurt Spiess in a huge tournament last weekend and it was mostly because I had no idea what the hell I was supposed to do preboard and postboard. Game 1 I kinda got there by floating a 2 on top with a t2 CounterTop, but G2 I got smashed by Main Phase 2 Rishadan Ports on all my white sources (Game 3 I just punted and lost when he jammed Marit Lage). Using Ein's 75, what should my game plan be? How should I board?
I like the following cards vs. RG Lands, but would not board ALL of them in:Quote:
Originally Posted by AnziD
2x Rest in Peace
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Disenchant
1x Keranos, God of Storms
It would be wonderful to have Needle in this matchup, but it isn't in the current board.
Exactly what you bring in depends on what you see. You want to be able to shut things down like Life from the Loam, Crucible, Punishing Fire, and the like, and be able to deal with Marit Lage. These decks are very good at recurring Lage, so having a solid way to repeatably deal with him is important.
Rest in peace does an effective job of stopping all graveyard shenanigans. 2x is a definite.
EE can hit all of their rampers like exploration, and can get some value hitting mox diamonds and needles. I'd say 1 to 2.
Vendilion Clique can get the LFTL out of their hands post-draw, which can help slow them down, while presenting a real clock.
Disenchant hits all of their enablers.
Keranos serves as another wincon, and, while not necessarily at its best vs a recurring wasteland deck, can shine in the long game, as they really have no way of getting it off the board.
Coming out would be something of the following:
1x Entreat the Angels for 1x Keranos. They run a ton of EEs. One is fine, as a "gottcha!" but I think Keranos better suits how the matchup will play out.
2x Snapcaster Mage for 2x Vendilion Clique. VClique presents a more relevant threat, while providing great distruption vs. Life from the Loam. Plus snap loses value with 2x RIP main
1x Counterbalance for 1x Disenchant. We definitely WANT counterbalance in this matchup, as it can simply turn off the Loam Engine, but Disenchant allows us to deal with what slips through.
2x Counterspell for 2x Rest in Peace. Counterspell deals with Life/Punishing once, RIP stops it from ever recurring again.
1x CJ, 1x Force of Will for 2x EE. I think force is fine to leave in on the draw, but I'm not sure what I'd cut. CJ becomes too hard to cast with rishadan port running around.
Things I didn't touch:
Jace -- I call this wincon A. They have very few ways to get it off the table (save for a reb effect, but that's what counterbalance is for), and he can bounce Marit Lage if you somehow come to that situation.
The Cantrips -- We need to see as much of our deck as possible in order to get the full power out of it. Thus, none of these are removed.
Swords and Terminus -- These are both effective ways to deal with Marit Lage. Swords kind of sucks, because it makes the kill with keranos harder, but it's so much more efficient to cast than CJ, and you can do it in response to port. Same story for responsiveness with Terminus.
My only fear is diluting my deck with unnecessary cards... I'm interested in reading other people's approaches.
I like the cards you recommend bring in, but you definitely don't need 8 W removal spells. Unless you see factories or suspect stage/depths is a 4of, 2-3 stp should be more than enough to deal with a surprise mirage lage. If they get to the point where they can recur lage, the game is basically over. You need to try to not let them get to that point, not run cards to try to prolong the inevitable. The fight is over loam and pfire mostly, so rip and CB are very important. I also like maxing out entreat. It dodges port and can block page if needed. Jace is great, but pfire or EE (for 4) are a threat to him too and he will often be harder to cast than entreat because of ports.
With that in mind, perhaps my board plan should cut 1STP, keep in Entreat, and maybe cut 4x Terminus to keep Counterbalance, force and Counterspells around (up the blue count).Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
With "recur lage" in mind, I will say that an important part of this matchup is to realize when you've won and when you've lost, because you will go to time and you will draw. No one wants that.
@ twndomn and exallium; thanks for replying. Yeah, I felt like I was probably pretty dead there. What I ended up doing was cracking the fetch before triggering Balance. The idea there was that if I found something useful on top then I could bounce the Abrupt Decay and be fairly assured that I'd get to survive at least one more turn. If I found nothing helpful then I'd bounce the Counterbalance and hope he didn't have it. I ended up seeing Flusterstorm, so I bounced the Decay. He Decayed again on his turn, Pondered, then passed. I untapped and decided to play Jace and Brainstorm (finding a new CB, a second REB, and a land). I play a land to leave Flusterstorm or REB up. He silences, I Flusterstorm, he chooses not to pay, and then I die anyways.
I ended up making the most "afraid" play, and it probably ended up being one of the worse lines. Thinking back, I thought that it might have been correct to bounce the Balance and just make him have it since a single Flusterstorm is unlikely to get there. It's also possible that I should have not cast the Jace and instead held up both Flusterstorm and REB (in the hopes that I'd get to counter a Probe or draw spell that he'd need in order to combo). It's interesting that both of you said to hold up the Venser though. I suppose that's a decent line as well, especially if I make it to the point when I have Flusterstorm and/or REB up too.
@RG Lands; I usually board out all my Terminus and REBs (if you don't have REB, I could see taking out Pierces or Counterspells). I prefer Plows since they rarely have many guys and racing with Angels is totally valid. I really like RIP, FoW, Venser, Entreat, and CBalance here. Jace is alright, but Crop Rotation EoT can make tapping out threatening.
Quick question for those who play on MTGO.
When you are blind flipping counterbalance, how do you see what card you revealed?
Under the revealed tab, I am only able to see what cards the opponent revealed. The prompt on what card is revealed is also very periodical.
Let me know if you are also facing this issue.
A text pop up will appear on the right of your screen with the name of the card.
On the right hand side, the top half shows your opponent's exiled/revealed cards while the bottom half shows your own. You have to expand the revealed dropdown, but it will show you the card that counterbalance flips.Quote:
Originally Posted by KZhang
I though entreat was bad vs lands? They waste you and port you and have tabernacle and maze of ith, so it's really hard to get a mass of angels, let alone to have angels actually deal damage to them. Isn't Jace ult the easiest way to win?
Jace was much better against the old Lands decks because they couldn't really do anything scary at instant speed. Since Dark Depths is a thing now, you have to be more careful about tapping out. Port isn't really a problem for Entreat because you can always just draw it in response to the Port activation. Tapping out for Entreat is less scary because in the worst case scenario if they Crop Rotation and make a Marit Lage then you still have at least some number of blockers ready. I'm not saying Jace is bad, he's just not as reliable as he once was against Lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by rickster
I'd stick with boarding out non-FoW countermagic and Terminus. FoW is still useful for Manabond/Exploration or if they bring in Chalice or even for blowing out a Crop Rotation. Spell Pierce can be good on the play, but it loses value quickly. EE might be alright, but it's slow at hitting Manabond/Exploration and it can't touch Marit Lage. Shutting down Loam should be a big priority.