[Deck] 12 Post

Actually I forgot to put that down coming out against Sneaky Show!

Against Grixis it may be right to keep it in, but here I think there's a subgame depending on whether they brought in blasts for me or not. Ideally I'd like to have Shows when they don't have any blasts, or not have Shows when they do have blasts.

With Miracles I like the idea of them having to bring in blasts while I have the luxury of not even needing the SnTs.

Against Infect I'm revising my ideas, they have only 1 Wasteland usually and the rest is taxing counters. Show and Tell should be resolvable. Chasm beats poison, doesn't it?

EDIT: The larger problem with the Leylines is probably the lack of cards getting pulled out in Shardless and Jund matchups. I just don't see much that is bad against them in my main deck, nor most main decks posted on the site. If that's the case, Leylines are a bust.

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Originally Posted by My Decklist

Maindeck:

4 Primeval Titan
1 Oracle of Mul Daya

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger


2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
4 Warping Wail
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Candelabra of Tawnos


4 Cloudpost

4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva

1 Thespian's Stage

4 Forest
2 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboard:

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Rest In Peace
1 Trinisphere
1 Sphere of Resistance
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Moment's Peace
3 Leyline of Sanctity

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What here would you cut for the (second) Candelabra that just arrived in my mailbox? ;)

I'm also considering trying out 2 Song of the Dryads and would love to hear people's thoughts on what to cut for them, as well.

EDITED TO ADD: My thought is to take out a Green Sun's Zenith for the second Candelabra. And if I add 2 Song of the Dryads, I remove the other two GSZ, and swap the Reclamation Sage in the sideboard with a third Krosan Grip.

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Originally Posted by cwcomposer

What here would you cut for the (second) Candelabra that just arrived in my mailbox? ;)

I'm also considering trying out 2 Song of the Dryads and would love to hear people's thoughts on what to cut for them, as well.

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I would either drop a top or the maze of ith. Personally I like having a Tabernacle mainboard and have the option to board into the maze in place of tabernacle.

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Originally Posted by mykatdied

I would either drop a top or the maze of ith. Personally I like having a Tabernacle mainboard and have the option to board into the maze in place of tabernacle.

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Candelabra plays great with Maze of Ith, I would advise keeping it for at least testing. You could do -1 Top or even -1 Needle. If Miracles is big in your area, you may want to do -1 Crop Rotation because Crop Rotation does not play well against Countermagic.

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Originally Posted by mykatdied

I would either drop a top or the maze of ith. Personally I like having a Tabernacle mainboard and have the option to board into the maze in place of tabernacle.

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I would cut Top. I've cut them all and hardly miss it. There's already so much card selection.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think it's best to go to 3 Wails than cut Tops. Multiple copies are easy enough to shuffle back in, and few 1 drops are as good across every stage of the game. Also they are the first line of defense against discard. 3 Crop Rotation sounds fine too with how blue most metas are.

I think I'm going to stop referring to "the" meta. All are local.

So I've done a bit of testing with song. Like Rock said you can trap yourself very easily with cheeky plays, when you could just go for a proven line of play. One needs discipline playing this...:laugh:
I admit that the card is very good for fighting magus (probably the best MB solution we have??). I have to play it more to get a better feel for it. I'm wondering why we didn't run this b4? It was printed 2 years ago and the vesuva interaction was probably discovered earlier right?

I've cast the new mindrakul on xmage a couple of times now. Slaving your opponent is not as straight forward as one would think. i messed up slaving my opponent on all occasions (or at least it wasn't optimal). Despite my poor slaving i won every game i cast her. She prompted two forfeits g1. i think the opponents were trying to avoid giving up information prior to boarding... One obvious thing to note is that she can be countered and i didn't get the chance to attack with their creatures into her. Each time she resolved my opponent forfeited and each time i got to slave them she was countered. so i guess 13 / 13 flying, trample, protection from instants + mindslaver is just too much to handle? I usually cast her for 7. The key card being... guess what rock...? Show and tell was always the 4th card type (sorcery) in my graveyard.
Anyway Mindrakul is soooo much fun. Shuffling away all their good stuff, using their removal on their stuff, ... What can upset your opponent more? Hopefully no physical violence will ensue when I cast her on paper... :cool:

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Originally Posted by cwcomposer

What here would you cut for the (second) Candelabra that just arrived in my mailbox? ;)

I'm also considering trying out 2 Song of the Dryads and would love to hear people's thoughts on what to cut for them, as well.

EDITED TO ADD: My thought is to take out a Green Sun's Zenith for the second Candelabra. And if I add 2 Song of the Dryads, I remove the other two GSZ, and swap the Reclamation Sage in the sideboard with a third Krosan Grip.

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I'm trying out 2x Song of the Dryads in my GW midrange build. I'm contemplating shaving down to 1 Ugin (yes I know how good it is), since Song and Ugin don't work too well together.

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Originally Posted by MechTactical

I've cast the new mindrakul on xmage a couple of times now. Slaving your opponent is not as straight forward as one would think. i messed up slaving my opponent on all occasions (or at least it wasn't optimal). Despite my poor slaving i won every game i cast her. She prompted two forfeits g1. i think the opponents were trying to avoid giving up information prior to boarding... One obvious thing to note is that she can be countered and i didn't get the chance to attack with their creatures into her. Each time she resolved my opponent forfeited and each time i got to slave them she was countered. so i guess 13 / 13 flying, trample, protection from instants + mindslaver is just too much to handle? I usually cast her for 7. The key card being... guess what rock...? Show and tell was always the 4th card type (sorcery) in my graveyard.
Anyway Mindrakul is soooo much fun. Shuffling away all their good stuff, using their removal on their stuff, ... What can upset your opponent more? Hopefully no physical violence will ensue when I cast her on paper... :cool:

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I've been testing what the best sorcery is for building up mindrakul. Probe, Show and Tell, and Ponder are the best options thus far.

In my testing I have also won every game I cast Mindrakul in. I might go to 2.

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Originally Posted by Lormador

I think it's best to go to 3 Wails than cut Tops. Multiple copies are easy enough to shuffle back in, and few 1 drops are as good across every stage of the game. Also they are the first line of defense against discard. 3 Crop Rotation sounds fine too with how blue most metas are.

I think I'm going to stop referring to "the" meta. All are local.

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I disagree on playing anything less than 4x Wail unless you're running blue. Access to countermagic radically transforms our game 1 vs combo, which has always been a weak spot for the deck. And it easily and cheaply answers at least 75% of the creature threats that you are likely to see in almost any meta. Wail is one of the most versatile tools in our arsenal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wow... I never thought I'd say this but Turbo Eldrazi with the new Emrakul is one of the first decks in Legacy to remind me of the classic "Control Slaver" archetype that was so much fun for a while in Vintage.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

I've been testing what the best sorcery is for building up mindrakul. Probe, Show and Tell, and Ponder are the best options thus far.

In my testing I have also won every game I cast Mindrakul in. I might go to 2.

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Dudzz i just killed one dude with his toxic deluge :eek:

P.s. he had 4 bridges i was contemplating ulamog - karakas and went 4 mindrakul instead... evil sh** he looked ripe 4 slaving

maybe even a FOW bulid??

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Originally Posted by MechTactical

Dudzz i just killed one dude with his toxic deluge :eek:

P.s. he had 4 bridges i was contemplating ulamog - karakas and went 4 mindrakul instead... evil sh** he looked ripe 4 slaving

maybe even a FOW bulid??

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New emrakul vs decks with deluge. I love it.

So been following this thread for a good year. Thought I would finally start jumping in. Please be nice to the new guy! Zot you may remember me from cockatrice same name there as screen name here. The oblivion sower eldrazi midrange build with posts I was the one online deck testing with great success on cockatrice but never took to tourny since think u/g better for bigger tournaments. Recently redid my deck. I have 2 candles MB and more old school run 4 repeals. Went 4-4 in Cbus Grand Prix...Good chance 5-3 but blew last game on purpose since no chance day 2 and wanted to jet after 11 hours. 6 combo decks and no miracles...sometimes you roll 20's and sometimes you don't. I'm not a great player but not awful and played legacy for years.

I too have not lost with mindrakaul when casted. People are not giving him enough credit. Looking to take place of kozilek. Not huge fan of him overall. Think it will help our deck greatly. Recently redid deck...dropped all my needles and exp maps. Trying something different. Maps are soooo slow. Bumped to 4 crops...yes can be countered but when land wasted I cast crop and they force it etc. Its almost always done since they know how bad things can get. Also, tells me if they have a counter. It's a huge gain still 2 cards to get my land...if know how to play them around counters soooo powerful. Upped to 28-29 lands and tabernacle MB. With higher lands and 4 crops wasteland isn't a big deal. Plus more lands to counter wastes and lead them. For Loam style decks 4 surgical in SB etc. Deck has hummed way better imo and have played post around a year now. Only 3-4 weeks with new change though. New anti discard land I'll prob run SB. Tabby is a great answer to 18 land delver decks and many other aggro decks and loved the chg to MB...even if wasted a turn or 2 later that should be game for our deck by slower them a few turns to build up. I SB it in over 75% of time so feel it was needed MB. Eye of ugin turn 1 mimics love the land as well as tapping double lands for 1 dude to save. I like MB with aggro decks flying high. Tabby on board with casting mindrakaul is very nice too. I run repeal over wails. Wails have been so lack luster for me. Mono green or G/w it's a def imo. Running blue I feel better answers and SB. 2 mana is too slow for storm at least way ppl draw against me lol. And creatures I get it but repeal does just as good and bounces many other things and draws me deeper in deck. Also plays ridiculous tricks with SDT and candles. That's my 2 cents. Appreciate the thread btw. Everyone on here has great ideas and comments. Has helped me immensely. Love the song of dryad roc. Played the damn card in EDH last 2 years and never thought of that combo! I see a few in next SB. By far funniest legacy deck I've ever played and if the driver understands the deck it's quite powerful.

Trying to make a sideboard. This is my best effort so far

1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Elephant Grass
1 Moment's Peace
3 Swan Song
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Krosan Grip
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

Looks weird, I know, but the idea is to get 60 useful cards against all DTB, let the Storm matchup slide to some extent, and crucially buy that slot for Llawan because she is the stone cold nuts against Food Chain. My local Food Chain player actually is that good, but I doubt any amount of skill on his part will beat Cavern on Cephalid into the Empress.

Hello Everyone, I've also been following this thread for awhile and thought it was finally time to comment. Traditionally I played Mono Black PrisonPox but a few months ago I decided to switch things up as we've now got 3 or 4 other Pox players in my area. It has been super helpful reading about what everyone's doing and their thoughts on certain cards. I have been building and playing around with 12post for about a year now and have read every page of this forum from the beginning (some pages more than once).

Originally when I first started out, I tested and played Mono G 12post with the full "post" package and then moved on to Gw with Thalia, Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist in the sideboard. I wasn't too thrilled with either, so I started putting together UG and I think it's probably tied for my favorite deck to pilot (though I am messing around with a Gr version that runs New Emrakul and Stranglehold).

The list I'm running is mostly a product of my lack of funds and local (almost non-existent) Legacy meta so I have a few cards in smaller numbers or missing entirely that may throw some people off, but rather than just cookiecut from Rock Lee or Zotmaster or any of the rest of you, I wanted to make the deck more my own and would really appreciate some constructive criticism/or your thoughts:

Lands:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Seat of the Synod
2 Forest
2 Island

Creatures:
1 Emrakaul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Trinket Mage
1 World Breaker
4 Primeval Titan

Artifacts:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Expedition Maps (considering cutting to 1)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Mox Diamond
1 Candelabra of Tawnos (really wanted 2...)

Spells:
3 Show and Tell (considering cutting to 2)
2 Repeal
4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Krosan Grip
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Warping Wail
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 All is Dust

So the first things people may notice are:

-No mainboard Warping Wail and only one in the SB: I just really don't like this card, I know that's like.. a cardinal sin again the structure of the deck for most of you, but it's a personal preference. I've never lost a game and thought "Man, if only I could've resolved that Warping Wail"

-I only run 2 Tropical Islands and a whopping 4 basics (as well as Seat of the Synod): Land hate is a real thing where I'm at, Wasteland and Ghost Quarter are rampant, I like to not have my colors screwed up when I want to cast since I have so many color-dependent spells. Seat of the Synod is a recent inclusion as tutorable U source if I'm desperate. Veteran Explorer is also a thing in my area, so the basics are nice

-Only 1 Candelabra. I really wanted this to be 2, but with the spike, it's out of my range for what I can afford...

-2 Spatial Contortion in the sideboard: This is kind of a pet card but it acts as either EoT removal, spot removal against Burn/Delvers or to make something too fat to go under my bridge if the deck decides to durdle

A few notes:

-Vesuva is occasionally a 1-of with a Thespian's Stage

-I have been considering dropping 1x Show and Tell and 1x Expedition Map to mainboard 2 Warping Wail, I don't like WW, but it's always possible I just haven't played enough games with it. Besides, 3 Show and Tell is excessive

-I would like to mainboard good ol' Shoalzaliek, there's just so much value in replenishing your hand, but at the moment, I think World Breaker is a stud and it's hard to make the switch

-I have a lot of trouble against Lands and Miracles, I know those are supposed to be easier match ups, but these usually end up as 1-2 at the end of the night

Thanks again everyone, looking forward to what the new set brings to the deck

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Originally Posted by TheCorgiKing

...rather than just cookiecut from Rock Lee or Zotmaster or any of the rest of you, I wanted to make the deck more my own...

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The ability to do this is one of the most exciting things I've discovered about this deck.

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Originally Posted by TheCorgiKing

Only 1 Candelabra. I really wanted this to be 2, but with the spike, it's out of my range for what I can afford...
[...]
I have a lot of trouble against Lands and Miracles, I know those are supposed to be easier match ups, but these usually end up as 1-2 at the end of the night

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I'm still not sold that the price spike is real. TCG mid is at $675, which is where MTGStocks gets their info. But TCG market price (the new gold standard, as far as I'm concerned, for rare cards such as this) is still at $389. Furthermore, there are a lot for sale in a few Facebook groups for mid $300s or lower.

As for beating Lands, it often comes down to Pithing Needle for me. If I can name Wasteland or Rishadan Port (whichever I fear most at the moment), I can usually start to get my game plan in motion.

Other all-stars in the matchup for me have been Bojuka Bog (in the maindeck) once the first Life from the Loam hits their 'yard, and Rest in Peace (from the sideboard).

Surgical Extraction has a lot of great targets. Extract their Life from the Loam and it's pretty much game over for their "engine." Hit their Dark Depths and it's game over for their only (scary) win condition. I've even used it to bait out Wasteland. You should've seen the look on my opponent's face when: [me: turn one] Cloudpost, [him: turn one] Wasteland my Cloudpost, [me: end of his turn one] Surgical Extraction his Wasteland.

Your Thespian's Stage is a great safety net against his Marit Lage combo; just copy his Dark Depths in response to him copying it.

Maze of Ith and Karakas will hold off Marit Lage forever. Vesuva can copy Maze of Ith or Karakas if yours keep getting Ported. The only games I've lost to Lands are the ones where they go straight for the Marit Lage combo as early as possible and I'm not yet set up to deal with it.

Well, I'll put in some suggestions, but take them with a grain of salt because I think you're more experienced with the deck than I am. I'm Internet you have, after all, even if I'm not the one you want.

My first impression is that there is a lot of graveyard hate in that deck. Two different tutorable MD answers and 4 dedicated sideboard cards may be more than needed.

This segues into my second idea, which is that the MD itself has less library manipulation and card drawing than it's possible to run, even cutting the mighty SDT down to 2 and Expedition Maps to 2 or 1. Repeal numbers are low too, which matches the low SDT count since you won't have the Spin/Draw/Repeal play very much. That's such a sweet play that I hate to lose it. Miracles has to run Predict to get this effect.

I do not understand the reasoning behind Seat of the Synod because there are no UU spells in the deck, nor GU or any combination where the Seat could make the difference. And if Trinket Mage is getting me nothing better than a land drop, I wonder whether I've cut too deeply into the library manipulation numbers.

I also do not understand this win condition configuration. Ulamog, World Breaker, and Ugin all answer problematic permanents or eliminate enemy threats in such a way as to at least stabilize the board position. They all have this same similar effect, and they're all awful Showed in against combo (at best, this is not even possible with Ugin). The Great Distortion, on the other hand, does something different. Showing this guy against a combo deck could really wipe them out, since they're forced to immediately go for it in the face of his counter ability. Against a fair deck, the D7 isn't so bad, especially at his relatively aggressive cost. Only if I'm behind against a board, on my last few life points, is this not going to get there.

So to present some concrete ideas, I propose:
-1 Seat of the Synod
-1 World Breaker (keep in mind you now you might want more Krosan Grip in the board to make up for the capability)
-2 Ensnaring Bridge (move to the board, maybe combine with Elephant Grass)
-1 Relic of Progenitus (move to the board if you want that much GY hate)
-1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
+2 Sensei's Divining Top
+2 Repeal

In the SB:
-2 Faerie Macabre
+1 Relic of Progenitus (from the MD)
-1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion (who now lives in the MD)

...putting you up 2 slots in the sideboard.

As for the sideboard generally, now that I'm more at leisure I'm pleased to post my rough ideas. If any of this flies in the face of reality, please let me know.

Grixis Tempo: 4 slots, Crop Rotations and Boguja Bog
In: +1 Ensnaring Bridge, +2 Elephant Grass, +1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Miracles: 8 slots, -3 Crop Rotation, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Glacial Chasm, -3 Warping Wail
In: +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Krosan Grip, +1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, +3 Swan Song

Lands: 5 slots, -1 Glacial Chasm, -3 Warping Wail, -1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
In: +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 K-Grip, +1 Ensnaring Bridge

Storm: 7 slots, -1 Chasm -3 Needle -1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, -2 Trinket Mage
In: +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 Flusterstorm, +3 Swan Song

Infect: 3 slots: -3 Crop Rotation
In: +1 Moment's Peace, +2 Elephant Grass

Shardless: 4 slots: -3 Warping Wail -1 Glacial Chasm
In: +1 Ensnaring Bridge, +2 Elephant Grass, +1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

BUG Delver w/ Stifle: 6 slots: -3 Crop Rotation -2 Trinket Mage -1 Glacial Charm
In: +2 Elephant Grass +1 Ensnaring Bridge +1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale +2 Flusterstorm

BUG Delver w/ Hymn: 4 slots: -3 Crop Rotation -1 Glacial Chasm
In: +2 Elephant Grass +1 Ensnaring Bridge +1 Tabernacle

...others maybe I'll put in later.

I've been testing, mostly game 1 in a monogreen build over the last 2-3 months. I think that, I can come out on the side of Sensei's top being a critical card. Without it, you're too often just waiting and a slave to top decks. Ancient stirrings is nice, but I think instant speed is better. This helps for matchups vs black when you're discarding half of your hand in the first 2-3 turns.

The next problem is troublesome permanents moon, chalice, chalice + moon etc. Song of the dryad would be the new hotness, but repeal always played this role previously and while many builds have moved away from it, I think that is probably not good. Whatever your color bent, cheaper faster solutions maindeck helps.

I've been playing without warping wail. With top going in, I'll look again at including it and see how these changes allow some modifications against combo.

A question I have now is, does the new graveyard mechanic and emergence open any space to yet consider using a different or maybe parallel colorless ramp strategy? Something like Zot was trying with oblivion sower, or maybe spawn driven? Is there room for thoughtknot?

Good luck out there.

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Originally Posted by Lormador

Well, I'll put in some suggestions, but take them with a grain of salt because I think you're more experienced with the deck than I am. I'm Internet you have, after all, even if I'm not the one you want.

...MD itself has less library manipulation and card drawing than it's possible to run, even cutting the mighty SDT down to 2 and Expedition Maps to 2 or 1. Repeal numbers are low too, which matches the low SDT count since you won't have the Spin/Draw/Repeal play very much. That's such a sweet play that I hate to lose it...

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Thanks for the suggestions! I ended up making a few edits to the list and it's running a little smoother now, I'll hopefully get to put it to the test this week

-1 Expedition Map
-1 Show and Tell
-1 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Seat of the Synod
-1 World Breaker to SB

+2 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Repeal
+1 Forest (don't currently have a 3rd Tropical Island)
+1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion from SB

I don't have a Tabernacle, it's on the short list of cards I'd like to acquire, but unfortunately that short list is still a couple thousand dollars

I've found most people aren't interested in trading their Tabernacles if Power isn't involved and I sold the pieces of power I had a few years ago when I graduated college and needed to relocate for work... it was a good idea at the time

Yeah, I think the Tabernacle problem is that most players who have one also already have everything else in Legacy, such that even a playset of NM Revised Underground Seas offered in trade wouldn't tempt them at all. I despaired of ever acquiring one myself, but after making a spreadsheet of all the Modern chaff and scruffy castoff chunks of unplayed decks in my collection, I found that the value added up really quickly and I did manage to trade a binder of stuff (including the binder itself, lol) to a shop for a Tabernacle. A store would be thrilled to make a deal like that, but no player would dream of touching it.

Careful you don't get choked on green mana. I run one basic Forest for 3 basics total, and I think about cutting it all the time due to the mana problems it occasionally causes, which may be worse than the Wasteland problems that it solves. Folks so rarely aim their land hate at my colored sources anyway, and they often get punished for it when they do because I very often sandbag a colored source. Even when I'd love to play out that colored source, playing colorless Cloudposts, Vesuvas, and Glimmerposts is so important that I rarely have a land drop to spend on a luxurious second colored source. Running colorless mana is really taxing, even moreso than running a 3 color deck because there is no overlap. I might even run 4 Tropical Island and 1 Breeding Pool in the deck, as I think the Pool might actually not be that bad here.

The question to my mind is whether we still want old Emrakul once the new one comes out. If it's true that games are universally, or near-universally, won when she is cast... a much cheaper, reliable win condition would speed our deck up considerably and be pretty big game, I think.

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Originally Posted by TheCorgiKing

The list I'm running is mostly a product of my lack of funds and local (almost non-existent) Legacy meta so I have a few cards in smaller numbers or missing entirely that may throw some people off, but rather than just cookiecut from Rock Lee or Zotmaster or any of the rest of you, I wanted to make the deck more my own and would really appreciate some constructive criticism/or your thoughts:

Lands:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Seat of the Synod
2 Forest
2 Island

Creatures:
1 Emrakaul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Trinket Mage
1 World Breaker
4 Primeval Titan

Artifacts:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Expedition Maps (considering cutting to 1)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Mox Diamond
1 Candelabra of Tawnos (really wanted 2...)

Spells:
3 Show and Tell (considering cutting to 2)
2 Repeal
4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Krosan Grip
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Warping Wail
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 All is Dust

So the first things people may notice are:

-No mainboard Warping Wail and only one in the SB: I just really don't like this card, I know that's like.. a cardinal sin again the structure of the deck for most of you, but it's a personal preference. I've never lost a game and thought "Man, if only I could've resolved that Warping Wail"

-I only run 2 Tropical Islands and a whopping 4 basics (as well as Seat of the Synod): Land hate is a real thing where I'm at, Wasteland and Ghost Quarter are rampant, I like to not have my colors screwed up when I want to cast since I have so many color-dependent spells. Seat of the Synod is a recent inclusion as tutorable U source if I'm desperate. Veteran Explorer is also a thing in my area, so the basics are nice

-Only 1 Candelabra. I really wanted this to be 2, but with the spike, it's out of my range for what I can afford...

-2 Spatial Contortion in the sideboard: This is kind of a pet card but it acts as either EoT removal, spot removal against Burn/Delvers or to make something too fat to go under my bridge if the deck decides to durdle

A few notes:

-Vesuva is occasionally a 1-of with a Thespian's Stage

-I have been considering dropping 1x Show and Tell and 1x Expedition Map to mainboard 2 Warping Wail, I don't like WW, but it's always possible I just haven't played enough games with it. Besides, 3 Show and Tell is excessive

-I would like to mainboard good ol' Shoalzaliek, there's just so much value in replenishing your hand, but at the moment, I think World Breaker is a stud and it's hard to make the switch

-I have a lot of trouble against Lands and Miracles, I know those are supposed to be easier match ups, but these usually end up as 1-2 at the end of the night

Thanks again everyone, looking forward to what the new set brings to the deck

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Warping Wail is a meta call card. Mostly for dealing with Grixis, Elves, and sneaky show. If you never see those three archetypes, then no reason to feel bad for cutting warping wail.

Best cards to beat Lands are needle and show and tell, as you well know. But also timing on when to bog them is clutch. If you run repeal as well, the matchup should be verging on a bye.

Nothing wrong with 4 basics. I've run upto 5 in the past in U/G builds. I would suggest running a 4th crop rotation, since with so many basics, mana fixing can get odd.

Especially with Trinket mage, 1 candelabra is plenty. You could also run Artificer's Intuition if you really want it more often and drop the trinket mages for more artifacts in general. Artificer's Intuition also facilitates Emrakul 2.

For lands and Miracles here's my play advice:

Lands - Just focus on getting basics and timing an appropriate bog to sweep their leg. Even if they save their loam with a thicket, you have near-infinite time against them if you play save with mana. Remember vesuva'd basics aren't waste-able. You can undo rishadan port's with candelabra, and they have near-no answer to repeal on their 20/20.

Miracles - This matchup is not as simple as many people (myself included in the past) imply. The huge focus is on landing an expedition map or Top before counterbalance hits, then get a titan and cavern it into play. Cavern is everything in this matchup unless you are simply drawing a ton of mana and have eldrazis. Also key to remember is that there are two different versions of Miracles Legendary Miracles, which runs low Mentors main/sb with venser/clique and low snapcasters, which can deal with cavern via venser, but is a slower build. And the Mentor build, which has 4 mentors in the 75, many main, relies on snapcasters, and is the more dangerous build of the two.

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Originally Posted by Ponders

A question I have now is, does the new graveyard mechanic and emergence open any space to yet consider using a different or maybe parallel colorless ramp strategy? Something like Zot was trying with oblivion sower, or maybe spawn driven? Is there room for thoughtknot?

Good luck out there.

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What is the new graveyard mechanic?

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

What is the new graveyard mechanic?

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I conflated emrakuls graveyard cast reduction with emergence inadvertently.

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Originally Posted by Ponders

I conflated emrakuls graveyard cast reduction with emergence inadvertently.

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ah. well to answer the question. I think courser will go up in price, even if only slightly. I think Grapple with the Past is a huge card now, for both U/g and mono green. Grapple + Trinket Mage is essentially an on-sligh grind deck.

I tested probe out for added sorceries, and it was tragically weak. I'm still seeking out other sorceries that aren't show and tell, but are low enough mana to merit running. Stirrings was always "ok" at this, but it still falters in getting titan/show combo.

I tested Probe too, in fact I believe that deck of yours was my starting point Rock. I don't think they were too terrible given that the blue count was raised high enough to support Force of Will out of the sideboard. I did cut them eventually, and I cut those Forces for more powerful counterspells that cost mana, partly because my meta doesn't need me to run such general cards. I can predict it accurately enough to use more focused cards, there just aren't that many players in Beijing. Those that are here often are on 1-2 decks all the time.

I think running really any sorceries that cost colored mana comes at a pretty high cost, that being the necessity to play out a second colored source if I want to keep Crop Rotation mana open at all times (or if I want to just use Crop Rotation so as to cast an Eldrazi on my next turn). Generally my plan with this deck is to use one Tropical Island for my reactive stuff, using the colorless mana to Top or crack Maps until I have enough juice to start laying the I Win cards.

I'm sure Rock and friends have like 80 different ways to win that can involve all sorts of land configurations, but for my simple and noobish stylings this basic plan works pretty well.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

ah. well to answer the question. I think courser will go up in price, even if only slightly. I think Grapple with the Past is a huge card now, for both U/g and mono green. Grapple + Trinket Mage is essentially an on-sligh grind deck.

I tested probe out for added sorceries, and it was tragically weak. I'm still seeking out other sorceries that aren't show and tell, but are low enough mana to merit running. Stirrings was always "ok" at this, but it still falters in getting titan/show combo.

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i'm testing with ponder.

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Originally Posted by Lormador

The question to my mind is whether we still want old Emrakul once the new one comes out. If it's true that games are universally, or near-universally, won when she is cast... a much cheaper, reliable win condition would speed our deck up considerably and be pretty big game, I think.

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Mindrakul cannot replace emrakul (uncounterable time walk with anihilator 6)... and i've run into situations where she wasn't too helpful. When you cannot influence the opponent's overwhelming board state and you lose in their next turn. happened to me against goblins for example.

I tested New Emrakul in my build too, just in exchange for Ugin, without any other canges to make it cheaper.

I'm far less enthusiastic: I didn't lose a game where i cast New Emrakul either, but that's not the way to look at it. While testing it, i cast it just ~5 times, i cast Ulamog and Old Emrakul a lot more often - and just one time i cast it, i actually needed this effect to win, all the other times it didn't matter which Eldrazi i would cast. And these usually win the game too (in this timeframe i lost just once after casting Ulamog, and in that situation it was still the better play than new Emrakul).
I never searched up New Emrakul as my first option, that was always one of the other two, sometimes it didn't really matter, but sometimes a different Eldrazi was clearly the better option. There are a lot of situations where New Emrakul just wouldn't do enough.

The card is powerful because it attacks on a different angle than the other payoffs and could win in situations where nothing else can, but situations where it doesn't win while another Eldrazi does are more common. So i'm pretty sure the question won't be if New Emrakul can replace Ulamog or Old Emrakul, both cards are more important. The question will be if you should run it alongside these two, and maybe replace Ugin or Kozilek or whatever else you are running as additional payoffs.

I haven't tried Song of the Dryads yet but I have to admit it sounds pretty good to have decent removal in U/G. Has anybody given any thought to the new Imprisoned in the Moon card from Eldritch moon as a replacement for it since it is blue to pitch to force of will? I suppose there are a few enchantment and artifacts it doesn't help us deal with but we do have krosan grip out of the sideboard, counterspells, and repeal for that.

With the new emrakul has anybody tried playing Lignify as a creature removal spell? It costs one less than Song of the Dryads and Imprisoned in the Moon, which could be quite relevant. Being able to cast it on turn 3 with mana up to pay for daze would be huge against delver or infect decks. RUG delver, infect and moggcatcher are the toughest matchups for me in my meta, so having a removal spell they can't interact with easily would do wonders. Repeal only goes so far since they can just recast their threat. Since Lignify is tribal that would also reduce the cost of the new emrakul by 2 if it gets countered or destroyed. However, on the flipside it makes tarmogoyf bigger (likely by 2 power). I have been using relic of progenitus against goyf though and it's been pretty effective.

I started to tackle with a monoG "lands" build (maybe GW for knight and SB options or splash another color?? - don’t know yet): tracker + exploration + loam + grapple + mindrakul. Loam powers up mindrakul very quickly. Grapple makes loam feasible because we can consistently fetch our creatures from the graveyard without including complicated mechanics. World breaker is also very nice as he can just fetch himself out of the graveyard. And of course tracker is a huge HUGE card advantage engine. Combined with exploration + loam he's online very fast!
Any thoughts?

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Originally Posted by MechTactical

I started to tackle with a monoG "lands" build (maybe GW for knight and SB options or splash another color?? - don’t know yet): tracker + exploration + loam + grapple + mindrakul. Loam powers up mindrakul very quickly. Grapple makes loam feasible because we can consistently fetch our creatures from the graveyard without including complicated mechanics. World breaker is also very nice as he can just fetch himself out of the graveyard. And of course tracker is a huge HUGE card advantage engine and with exploration + loam he's online fast!
Any thoughts?

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I think this deck struggles worse against combo than any other variant, but it likely fine in the fair match up. Would it make sense to also run splendid reclamation and perhaps courser of Kruphix to get even more value out of land drops and help you decide on whether or not to dredge a loam pending your top deck? Maybe the ladder point is less relevant since you're likely running top

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Originally Posted by MechTactical

I started to tackle with a monoG "lands" build (maybe GW for knight and SB options or splash another color?? - don’t know yet): tracker + exploration + loam + grapple + mindrakul. Loam powers up mindrakul very quickly. Grapple makes loam feasible because we can consistently fetch our creatures from the graveyard without including complicated mechanics. World breaker is also very nice as he can just fetch himself out of the graveyard. And of course tracker is a huge HUGE card advantage engine. Combined with exploration + loam he's online very fast!
Any thoughts?

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That looks in some ways similar to my build, with even more focus on the graveyard. What i learned while building my deck:
1. You need a way to beat combo. Warping Wail and Crop Rotation can stop them for a while, but not always long enough for your engine to really start running, especially when you can't really tap out during your turn. That's why i play Dark Depths and use that as my main win condition against combo. That should work for you too, it needs early acceleration to be really good, Exploration should do the job. Especially if you include Knight, i would always play Depths, but probably even without it. (In some way i compare Dark Depths in the Gx lists to Show&Tell in the UG lists, both have the similar purpose to be a faster win condition when you really need one.)
2. You also need a way to stabilize fast enough against Delver or similar decks, the engine alone isn't fast enough usually. With Loam and without any splash i think Moment's Peace might be the best choice for you.

Other thoughts on splashs:
Red could probably work as a splash with Loam. Punishing Fire is an option, and Kozileks Return too. That should stop most aggressive decks.

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Originally Posted by Leshrac82

Other thoughts on splashs:
Red could probably work as a splash with Loam. Punishing Fire is an option, and Kozileks Return too. That should stop most aggressive decks.

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I think koz return is too slow and the pfire engine convolutes the waters of our deck too much. I think speed is key. I have been looking into GR Post with 3 sneak mb and 3-4 pyroblast sb and it feels very strong. Amulet of vigor is something I would like to give a shot here soon but in the meantime, with all the chalice decks on mtgo (where I play this deck) I want a mb answer other than ulamog so I may go towards adding a World breaker or find room for rec sage mb.

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

I think koz return is too slow and the pfire engine convolutes the waters of our deck too much. I think speed is key. I have been looking into GR Post with 3 sneak mb and 3-4 pyroblast sb and it feels very strong. Amulet of vigor is something I would like to give a shot here soon but in the meantime, with all the chalice decks on mtgo (where I play this deck) I want a mb answer other than ulamog so I may go towards adding a World breaker or find room for rec sage mb.

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I never tried PFire, and wasn't happy with a red splash for Kozileks Return in my deck, so maybe you are right. But it might work better in a Loam engine.

Rec Sage maindeck (if you play GSZ) could become necessary if more Miracles decks play Blood Moon or Back to Basics in the maindeck, i don't think i want it just against Chalice. World Breaker is imo too slow as an answer - from my limited testing with that card it seemed like i always had the mana to go for Ulamog when i had the mana for World Breaker. It might be good in a deck with Grapple and/or Loam, just because it can return itself from the graveyard, but i don't think it's really good enough otherwise.
With my deck i'm very happy with Engineered Explosives in the maindeck, but i'm playing 3 colors and have Mox Diamonds. Still, for me that card is the best answer to many different problems, and if it wasn't bad against some common sideboard hate (Needle, Null Rod) i would probably play even more in the board.

@ mykatdied Good point. That’s why I was thinking of dedicating the entire board to the combo match-ups or just splash blue for counter magic? Actually this is the first time I’m considering cutting top completely and rely solely on the tracker / loam engine to get the cards I need. Kruphix may not be a bad idea since it can be fetched with grapple and does give a nice bonus. I’ve tried Splendid but I think it isn’t worth the slot here because loam and grapple fetch lands from the GY. Maybe it would be nice to run reclamation sage main and free up additional space in the board for combo hate or just go crazy with world breaker?

@ Leshrac82 I know, I saw the potential of tracker when you beat the living sh** out of me on xmage :laugh: Agreed on MP since it works well with loam and is probably needed against the eldrazizs. I thought about depths combo maybe it should be in there?

I wanted to build around loam for some time now. Maybe grapple makes it possible for us to actually run it?

Here’s a very VERY rough draft:

4 Windswept Heath
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Wasteland
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Maze of Ith
7 Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Vesuva
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
4 Glimmerpost

3 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
4 Crop Rotation
4 Life from the Loam
4 Grapple with the Past
4 Tireless Tracker
3 Primeval Titan
1 World Breaker
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Surgical Extraction
4 Warping Wail
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip

P.s. I just wasted a delver (with good draws).

I've been contemplating brewing a GB version of the deck. Honestly grisly salvage + grapple + splendid reclaimation/loam.
Next I'll want to play Das Gitrog Monster! Maybe I'm just trapped in magical Christmasland.

Honestly though, black gives you access to thoughtseize / duress / therapy; which is another angle to attack combo decks, sans reanimator.

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Originally Posted by maCHOOga

I've been contemplating brewing a GB version of the deck. Honestly grisly salvage + grapple + splendid reclaimation/loam.
Next I'll want to play Das Gitrog Monster! Maybe I'm just trapped in magical Christmasland.

Honestly though, black gives you access to thoughtseize / duress / therapy; which is another angle to attack combo decks, sans reanimator.

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Hey, Gitrog Monster isn't that bad - it's the reason my deck exists! :wink:
But honestly, it's probably the worst card in the deck - it's amazing when i play it and has won some games, but maybe a different card would do more in the many games where i just didn't use it. I'm trying a version without it, to see if i miss it at any point, even if it hurts to cut the card from the deck that was the reason to build it in the first place.

The discard is tricky. My black splash is too light to play it, but even with a bigger splash that could be problematic. You want to be able to play these cards consistently on turn 1, and that might be difficult to do.

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Originally Posted by MechTactical

@ Leshrac82 I know, I saw the potential of tracker when you beat the living sh** out of me on xmage :laugh: Agreed on MP since it works well with loam and is probably needed against the eldrazizs. I thought about depths combo maybe it should be in there?

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Tracker has a lot of potential, and imo it could work in many different 12post builds (and it already works in other decks - Maverick, NicFit and Lands all play it, and they usually dont even have that much mana to crack clues).
I don't really know why other mono-green 12post builds don't want the depths combo any more. UG doesn't need it, Show&Tell does the same job. In RG you could maybe play SneakAttack, but everything else doesn't have an "i win"-button against decks that just usually beat us before we can ramp into Eldrazi.

After seeing your list i'm sure you want Depths, you even play Mox Diamonds too - that can speed up the combo, and is otherwise a good way to get rid of Depths when you don't want it. With the right draw you could kill on Turn 3, and you will have draws that can kill on Turn 4 relatively often. That's just great against decks that can't interact with that. Just use it carefully against decks that can answer it.

Leshrac82, I tried the list you sent me at my local weekly Legacy tournament last week, and didn't do so hot. I think it was a mixture of bad matchups and it being my first time piloting the deck.

Round 1 - Lost 0-2 to Esper Deathblade. True-Name + equipment proved to be an issue, as was Jace. He must've Brainstormed like 15 times in game 1.

Round 2 - Lost 0-2 to Enchantress. We don't have many ways to interact with them - or at least that's how it seemed. He basically drew his entire deck game 1 and found the Helm/RiP combo kill the turn before I was going to land Ugin to wipe his board.

Round 3 - Lost 0-2 to D&T. Like you said in our PMs back and forth, this can be a tough matchup when they draw the nuts, which he did. Twice.

Gitrog Monster seems bad when we're struggling to keep lands in play against decks like D&T. Veteran Explorer also didn't seem to do much.

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Originally Posted by TLK

Leshrac82, I tried the list you sent me at my local weekly Legacy tournament last week, and didn't do so hot. I think it was a mixture of bad matchups and it being my first time piloting the deck.

Round 1 - Lost 0-2 to Esper Deathblade. True-Name + equipment proved to be an issue, as was Jace. He must've Brainstormed like 15 times in game 1.

Round 2 - Lost 0-2 to Enchantress. We don't have many ways to interact with them - or at least that's how it seemed. He basically drew his entire deck game 1 and found the Helm/RiP combo kill the turn before I was going to land Ugin to wipe his board.

Round 3 - Lost 0-2 to D&T. Like you said in our PMs back and forth, this can be a tough matchup when they draw the nuts, which he did. Twice.

Gitrog Monster seems bad when we're struggling to keep lands in play against decks like D&T. Veteran Explorer also didn't seem to do much.

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Sad to hear that.

Esper Blade should be an ok matchup (i'm 4-2 against them, so not that much data). It's hard to defend against TNN (Glacial Chasm or Ugin are the only things that really work preboard), but usually they shouldn't be that fast.
Enchantress i played just twice (1-1), it seemed to be a very bad matchup and i got lucky to win it once, but i can't say much about it.
D&T i gave you my advice via PM. It's not as good as i thought at first, when i was 12-0 after 12 matches, but it should still be a good matchup overall (23-7 for me on xmage now, and 4 of those losses with a very bad sideboard strategy).

Gitrog Monster is not good against D&T for many reasons, just Karakas alone makes it bad. It only really shines in very grindy games, that's why i think about cutting it (another Tracker should work much more often and has a similar role).
For Veteran Explorer that were not the right matchups. Both D&T and Esper Blade have StP to get rid of it, that makes it not very effective. Against Enchantress it's completely useless. It's great against Eldrazi, it's good against Delver and generally against any deck that attacks on the ground and doesn't play white.