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It's less anti-Lotus and more anti-artifact, because Mana Crypt is playable and important in making the anti-strategies worse, likely to the point that the format just goes straight to "what's the best 5-drop/6-drop" every round. Seems boring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
No more replies over the weekend, so we'll be going with the Creatures and Lands only option.
This seems a little limited to me to be doing a full 15 round season, so I'd like to set up a 12 round season like we used to do.
Now, we could go for an empty banned list as a start, but then we'd have to plow through Lab Mans and Prototypes.
I think it'd be more interesting more quickly if we just start with the original banned list from Legacy and bannathon the top-3 each round from there.
Unless anybody has a better idea? Let me know in the next few days. If most are okay with the above, I'll edit all the things and hopefully we can start next week.
Prototype is not as good as you think it is, but the other four creatures on the Legacy ban list should definitely stay banned, otherwise we waste a couple of rounds banning them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Agreed with all of the above - Prototype is probably fine as a beefy creature in a bannathon, but Lab Man & friends are pretty degenerate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
Edit - Although, in the spirit of a true bannathon, perhaps it is correct to just let them get banned?
I would be for banning city of traitors and ancient tomb, and then say we are not banning lands that only produce mana (i.e. Dust bowl or maze of ith can be banned, but not Sandstone needle or any biland/storage land/depletion land).
I would also be for banning the fast mana (chancellor of the tangle, elvish/Simian Spirit guide), and things that we know are strong (magus of the moon, Tabernacle,...).
Waiting for a few rounds for the degeneracy to go down sounds less fun.
I think you still have to ban Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Temple with that plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
For reference, the legacy banlist has Barbed Shocker, Chancellor of the Annex, Laboratory Maniac, Lupine Prototype, Thassa's Oracle. I had to look them up cause I had no idea.
Normally I'd be with alphastryk and be a bannothon "purist" in matters like these and let the top cards get banned naturally, but I'm definitely more excited for the later rounds anyway, so I'm good with starting with these on the ban list. I'd be okay to put Tabernacle on that list too and maybe one or two others. City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb, SSG, ESG, and Chancellor of the Tangle should probably either all be banned or none be banned. I think I'm okay either way. I don't like the idea of making lands immune from bans. Mana-producing-only will be an extra complication, and there are plenty of interesting lands waiting for the spotlight anyway.
I was planning on banning non-basic lands in the bannathon as normal.Quote:
Originally Posted by silkster
This way we get to use good lands, but the dangerous ones get banned in the first few rounds.
We could decide on a starting banned list separate from the original Legacy banned list.
With Tabernacle and without Prototype, for instance. But other lands can also be included.
If we were to do this, I guess these would go:
Barbed Shocker
Chancellor of the Annex
Laboratory Maniac
Thassa's Oracle
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
and the usual land destruction lands, of course.
We could include fast mana guys Chancellor of the Tangle and the Spirit Guides as well, like dte suggests. Everybody okay with that?
Fast mana is likely to be banned quickly, and I am sure that we don't want Round 1 to be all about Thought-Knot Seer and friends (which is what would happen via dte's plan, and why I said that banning Eye of Ugin/Eldrazi Temple was also necessary).
I'm not convinced that skipping the fast mana would make the format that much more interesting in the long run.
Easier to ban TKS than both lands, also like this other eldrazi might be playable? Otherwise I agree with WoP that r1 could be tks*2 round again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
I would go to ban beforehand everything we know for sure will be banned, otherwise we know we will first play city of traitors round 1, then ancient tomb round 2, etc..
If we know some stuff will get banned for sure, why not banning it outright and give weird cards a chance to shine?
I'm fine with whatever, but I don't know how aggressively we want to pre-ban things (I think there's more depth to the Sol Lands / Eldrazi etc meta than people are thinking right now for example, and its making me think a lot)
I agree with this. If we ban everything we know will surely be banned, we just run into new things that then will surely be banned. There's always a best mana producer and a best creature.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
On the fast mana side I say we start with banning the Spirit Guides and Chancellor of the Tangle, but not the rest.
On the "normal" creature side, I think we can start with a ban on Thought-Knot Seer, as well as the four I mentioned above, but we can probably keep the rest.
This of course if we decide to go for banning nonbasics regardless of whether they have extra abilities. Which I would be in favour of as well.
If we decide to ban only nonbasics that have abilities other than mana abilities, we could choose to ban City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb and Eldrazi Temple.
So I guess we should vote on:
A: Banning all nonbasic lands from the top 3 scoring decks each round, or
B: Banning only nonbasic lands that have abilities beyond producing mana.
I like banning all non-basics personally
If we run out of nonbasic lands to play in round 12, then we have bigger issues because there are so many of them. Plus you can try to ban Thalakos Lowlands again!Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
You might also have to look at Eldrazi Mimic, although a fast 12/12 is not quite as good overall as fast Thought-Knot Seers.
I am in favour for the ESG + SSG + TKS + chancellor of the tangle bans.
I would also ban city of traitors and ancient tomb, or at least city. Otherwise tomb is one of the best land (2nd best?), yet it will likely not even see play in R1. It also a bit defeats the purpose of banathon, to have functionally very similar things.
I think all non-basics should be eligible for bans (A). We won't run out of duals in 12 rounds. Just get creative.
Then we won't have to worry about debating whether Ancient Tomb and Eldrazi Temple belong in B or not. Start with them unbanned and let them get banned naturally. #banThalakos Lowland
I don't think we need to bother banning TKS. With most fast mana banned, turn 1 TKS is not possible. T2 discard is good but Mesmeric Fiend and friends are still legal, so TKS is not *that* much more degenerate and the sol lands will get banned eventually anyway.
Everybody who's been vocal about it has supported allowing all nonbasics to be banned in the bannathon, so I'm leaning towards that right now.
Last chance to speak up against it. :wink:
Personally I would like to see all nonbasics eligible for banning, and to start with a minimal banlist. Oracle for sure needs to go, probably Labman and Channex too. Barbed Shocker is pretty close, but probably better off to start with it banned. I think Lupine Prototype might be fine? His size makes him an interesting way to combat TKS.
I think starting with as much open as possible will make for some interesting metagaming. We don't have to ban Eldrazi stuff outright if we don't ban fast mana, because it's no longer clear which deck is the best. I think Mishra's Workshop might also be fine? Maybe? The good thing about a bannathon is that if we accidentally leave some broken things legal, the problem naturally takes care of itself.
Edit: I also think Tabernacle is fine to start with unbanned, but that's just me. The Strip Mine lands might be better off banned from the get-go.
Tabernacle serves basically the same role Channex does in that it is technically beatable but warps the format around it.
To me, the starting point compared to the normal legacy ban list is this:
Unban: Lupine Prototype
Ban: Tabernacle
Beyond that I really do think any problem will be solved quickly.
I agree: all non-basics should be bannable.
I agree that Tabernacle is format warping in an un-fun way just like Chancellor of the Annex, so it should go too.
I can't decide on ESG/SSG/Tangellor and City/Tomb, so I'm happy either way. If Barbed Shocker is worth the ban, though, then I think TKS probably is too. 4/4 is much bigger then 2/2 and it doesn't have to connect. I also like the idea of giving Eldrazi Temple the opportunity to cast something that isn't TKS.
Asthereal's proposed banlist already includes " the usual land destruction lands", which I take to be Strip Mine, Ghost Quarter. and Wasteland, though I'm often prone to missing the obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxx!
There's one more LD land, but it's already on the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by silkster
The player base seems a tad split on what should be on the starting list, so I'll just choose.
I've already updated most of the first two posts. I'll be deciding on the final few things soon.
Also, I'll need to create my own deck, but I will be opening the season and round 1 in a day or so, and the deadline will be next week.
So you know what to expect.
But don't send me your decks just yet. I need to create my own deck first, and I have no concrete ideas yet, so I will be stealing yours if you send your decks early! :eek: :laugh:
Don't tempt me to spam you with terrible ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
I'm curious about one thing, and I don't think there's any way to ask it without revealing it and I suspect the answer is no, so I'd rather have it ruled out to clear my mind first. To clarify, I think the rule is "all submitted cards must have creature or land in the typeline", so Lucent Liminid is of course legal, but Grist, the Hunger Tide is not. Correct?
With LED illegal, does Shelldock need to get the axe too? My heart says that if someone can make it work then they should be rewarded. My brain says that unbanning it doesn't matter because it's probably either overpowered or unplayable.
That is still T3 Emrakul with cast trigger, seems quite powerful to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by silkster
"What's written on the typeline" isn't really a game concept, oracle text is always what matters. As Grist is a creature during deckbuilding, I think any sensible definition will have it legal.Quote:
Originally Posted by silkster
One other non-obvious point is MDFCs. Only the front side of a MDFC counts when considering legality with companions, (though both sides count for commander color identity, the rules specifically call this out as an exception) so MDFCs that have a non-creature, non-land front shouldn't be legal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by silkster
This is a good point. I'll add a thing about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by PJim
Grist is a nasty one, and indeed legal by current wordings. We could ban it beforehand, or just let our bannathon do its thing.
About double-sided and modal cards:
A solution could be that cards that have a non-creature/land side or mode are legal but only the land or creature side/mode can be cast or played. Does that sound acceptable?
So do I understand correctly that Grist, field of ruins, lupin prototype and all mana acceleration will be legal?
Field of Ruin fell off my list for some reason. Thanks for catching that one. It's especially annoying with sol lands legal, so that one needs to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
The others will indeed start legal, as most seem to prefer. We'll lose most of them in a round or two, so it shouldn't be that big of a deal.
Looks like no one's opposed to my suggestion that modal and double-faced cards can be played, but only their creature or land mode/side.
So I think I'll go for that method.
I don't like that at all. What does that imply about Adventures, Disturb, etc? These restrictions should be about deckbuilding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
I'd say either say a) MDFCs are legal if the front side is a creature or a land (the canonical rules interpretation), b) they're legal if at least one side is a creature or a land, or c) they're not legal unless both sides are creatures or lands.
Ultimately it probably won't even matter which of those three, as most MDFCs are pretty bad in 4CB. Messing with what we can do in play is inviting rules problems.
I have a proposition that might solve these issues : rather than deck building restrictions, we go for the deviant rule: "players cannot cast noncreature spells".
Can't we just go with "Your deck must be composed entirely of creature and land cards." It is strongly defined, and it doesn't remove interesting strategic pieces from the card pool. This solution doesn't address cards that transform (or flip?) into non-creature/lands, and enables sneaking other types in, so is bound to result in further confusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
The consequences of "Your deck must be composed entirely of creature and land cards" are:
Grist is legal. (If this is really seen as problematic, then ban rather than making the rules weird)
Dual Faced Cards are legal if their front side is a creature or a land.
Simplest is best. PJim has it right.
I'll add that for dual faced cards the front counts.Quote:
Originally Posted by PJim
And we'll ban Grist when it scores a top-3.
Everybody else cool with this?
Nobody responded anymore, so I'm locking this in, otherwise we lose another week. So the season looks as follows:
4 CARD BLIND - SEASON 11 - LEGACY CREATURES & LANDS BANNATHON
This season, we play 12 rounds of Legacy Creatures & Lands Bannathon. We will start with a modest banned list, and add the top-3 scoring decks for each round to the banned list.
Basic lands are excluded from these bannings, but other than that the top 3 will be added to the banned list every round.
Creatures & lands means the following: your deck must be composed entirely of creature and/or land cards. For dual faced cards, the front side counts.
ROUND ONE OF SEASON 11: LEGACY CREATURES & LANDS BANNATHON has started.
I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 1, so you can start sending me your decks.
DEADLINE: Wednesday the 10th of November at 11:00AM Central European Time.
(That's my time zone. Pacific Time it'll probably be something like Tuesday night a bit past midnight, so keep that in mind.)
PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows: Urborg, Quicksand, Daughti Slayer, Black Knight.
So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S11R01 in the topic.
Don't forget to keep an eye on the banned list. You'll find it in the second post of the thread, or in our Google Spreadsheet (which I'll build shortly).
After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.
Happy deckbuilding! :smile:
I didn't realize Grist's ability applied during deckbuilding. With this information, I must agree. Though interestingly, neither Gatherer nor Scryfall recognize Grist as a creature.Quote:
Originally Posted by PJim
I remembered about this season last Wednesday, but the banlist wasn't set. Then completely forgot until just now. I'm somehow always brewing at the last minute. And then when I went to check the banlist, the spreadsheet wasn't made yet! (This isn't a complaint. I just thought it was funny. Thanks to Asthereal for all the organization.)
Yeah, I usually make the spreadsheet after posting decks for round 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by silkster
Speaking of which, I have decks from 10 players. Compared to the last round of last season I miss entries from Reep and jhhdk.
I vaguely remember one of these mentioning being busy and perhaps not joining this season, but I'll give you guys a few more hours just in case.
It was jhhdk.Quote:
Originally Posted by jhhdk
Sending something bad in.
Ah right. My memory is foggy af. Chess has been eating up most of my brain space lately. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
EDIT: And as I post this, Reep sends me a deck, so I'll be assembling everything and posting decks soon.