Yeah, it is useless. But its early game advantage is such that its worth drawing late game.
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Yeah, it is useless. But its early game advantage is such that its worth drawing late game.
I'm not doubting you guys the power of vial. I like it, when its in my opening hand.
Even with vial, chances are that you will be dropping 1 lord per turn. True, you will have that god hand where you vial silvergil, draw a card, drop a lord, but that is the farthest extent it can go.
Merfolk doesn't have the ability to draw many many cards, then glimpse them in with cradle. Thats are biggest problem.
Keep in mind that there are 8 dead cards after turn 3 with this deck. 4 vials and 4 dazes. The decks we are playing against, team america, bant, rug, have cards that are useful throughout the game. Thats the main problem we are facing and conclusively, we are not winning against these decks.
I also tested with jace in the deck. His brainstorm ability actually helped me drop another lord faster than using silvergils ability.
I did lose against team america, but even with vial, i would not have won that game.
Hi,
I've seen many mistakes in this thread lately (Counterspell, Jace, the Mind Sculptor), seems some of you guys don't even understand the basic principles of this deck.
How do you think of cutting EVEN one Aether Vial from Merfolk??? It's insane
This deck is all about tempo. You say Vial is useless after 3 turns?
True. But so are Daze, Cursecatcher, Islands...
Aether Vial is our tool to gain tempo. You drop Vial, then you may cast Daze without paying its mana cost, and without the downside of bouncing your island, because that's it, you have a Vial.
What's the point to cut Vial, to add more critters? Critters which will not even enter the battlefield, because you are now too slow without Vial?
Against Team America you win because you are very aggressive and fast. You are aggressive and fast because you can drop many creatures in a few turns. You can do that not because you have many creatures in your deck, but because you can drop many at once.
All the while being able to counter (Daze, Force of Will) and eliminate blockers (Reejey triggers, Dismember).
I have to agree on this one, Merfolk is a tempo deck. You wanna kill ur opponent ASAP and try to avoid late game battle. After looking at some posts and tournament result, I am wondering why standstill is not used anymore, especially with the resurgence of combo and control decks.
I have 3 standstills in my MD and I am very satisfied on how it performs. With misstep gone, T1 vial followed by T2 Standstill is highly possible.
I'm not smoking anything, but thanks for the insult.
I've been playing alot of Merfolk over the last year and I know that Vial isn't ideal after turn one. It's value goes down significantly after turn one. However, it is not a useless card if you draw and play it turn three. There have been countless times where I play an Adept/some other creature on turn two and draw a Vial off the card or my next turn.
This is not a great situation, but I would say that more than a few games have been won through this. For example, I will be playing UW Blade or some other deck packing counters and I have a LOA in my hand. If it's turn three, I will play the Vial since running it out to be countered is not a great play when a single LOA resolved can win you the game. Again, I agree that the value of the card goes down immensely and alot of the time it is a pretty bad draw, but to say it's useless is just wrong (it will also depend on what type of deck you are playing against).
Anyways. It was a simple test run to go vialless. To be honest, I feel that the deck is almost the same. You do get more threats each turn though. Of course I did not get the explosive turn 2 with vials. Also I do miss having some extra counters.
Jace annoyed the shit out of the opposing player.
I've been testing without vial and with vial, I play this deck a lot and I think i'd cut the wastelands before cuting the vials. Sure, mana denial is awesome vs opponents with a poor mana base, and it can give you the game, but often those wastelands are forcing me to mulligan. I mean, hands like cursecatcher, LoA, Coralhelm, reejerey, island, wasteland, would become so much playable if the wasteland was an Island. So many hands would become playable if a non-basic land were another island.
And this has happened too often to me. I think it's more important to be able to develop my game than cutting opponent's plays. And hands with mutavault and wasteland are even worse.
What do u ppl think?
What I think? Well, I use an tactic all you would call me an idiot but Ive been doing this for quite awhile and it works out great.
I just add an 61st card to the deck, an Island.
Without having a vial, I have been mana screwed countless times. On board, it would be wasteland, island, mutavault. I could not even cast my lord of atlantis or coralhelm commander.
This has annoyed me to no other. I was thinking cutting down on the mutavaults to run more islands because of this. I would not cut the wastelands since killing utility lands are far more important than attacking with a 2/2 mutavault.
I've also been screwed with phantasmal images. I ran three in the MD and there are times i have a silvergil and couldn't cast it because I have 2 images in hand. If you run kira as well, this just adds to you not being able to cast silvergil.
I'm thinking maybe drop the mutavaults to 3 and run an extra island to give you that extra UU, which is critical in fish.
Vial is the reason why this deck can justify running 8 colorless sources. Wastelands give your Dazes and Cursecatchers more life in addition to wrecking decks with a tenuous manabase. And then there are all of the problem lands that need to be dealt with or you just lose- like Cephalid Coliseum for example.
Wasteland is one of the best cards in legacy, and someone (I can't remember who-sorry!) on this forum said it best when they asserted that if you are playing without them, you need to have a very good reason for doing so.
I've had plenty of awkward hands/draws where I needed double blue but only had one or nothing at all, but you have to realize that since this is partially a game of chance, you are going to end up with bad hands and bad draws no matter what your deck's composition. Merfolk is a beautifully synergistic deck, with a core suite of cards that can't be removed without sacrificing the integrity of the deck as a whole.
If you do fiddle with Vial, Wasteland, or what have you, you will probably still win, and maybe even often enough that you think that it was the correct choice. But then you have to wonder how much better the deck would perform if its best cards hadn't been cut.
Having only recently constructed my merfolk deck (missing 3 wastes, 4 mutavaults) I have to agree with you. Its so freaking annoying to have to mulligan and completely lose gas most of the times just to have the option of wasteland. It sucks imo. I also noticed that 21 creatures I play are maybe low? What about if they pack much removal?
Here my list and while not entirely optimal I somewhat like it:
Creatures (21)
4x Lord of atlantis
3x Coralhelm commander
4x Cursecatcher
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Merrow Reejerey
2x Phantasmal image
Spells (19)"> Spells (19)
4x force of will
4x daze
4x go for the throat
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x aether vial
3x standstill
Lands (18)"> Lands (18)
3x polluted delta
4x misty rainforest
4x mutavault
3x underground sea
4x island
I haven't gone to a tournament with it yet as i don't have the mutavaults but so far it functions well. Setting aside the fact that it lacks some more creatures I think, as it is a bit slow for a creature deck (well, maybe 8 free counters do change your role a bit .Its not zoo anyway). What do you guys think? Sucks or not?
P.S a funny idea on combating goyf would be Vodalian Zombie !!!!!!!!
also how about Inkfathom Infiltrator ,Sygg, River Cutthroat and
Grimoire Thief as extra creatures if needed? Do you think that power wise they are ok?
for everybody plaing gut shot, play psychic purge instead
Lol, people trying to drop Vial and Wasteland from Merfolk...
Christ, Merfolk is a tempo deck, that focuses on killing your opponent in short order. And Vial and Wasteland makes a huge difference in the kill. The whole point of Merfolk's gameplan is to drop lords asap to make huge islandwalking fish, and disrupting (SOFTLY) your opponent on this process (via Cursecatcher, Counterspell, Wasteland).
If the game goes late against something like Stoneblade or BUGstill you will lose. The reason? Their decks are designed to win on the lategame, while disrupting the opponent's early (which is the whole principal of a control deck).
I'd say that there're two things that merfolk have trouble with: Non-Island decks, and Spot Removal. That's why this deck has a wonderful blue matchup, and a horrible GW Maverick, Zoo and Goblins matchup.
What would you guys run right now?
3x stifles or 2 kira and a spell pierce?
I've decided to just punt the zoo matchup. What do you guys think has more utility right now.
Team america runs 8 spot removals (including snapcasters)
Spell Snares for me. They are not expected and they deal with the best of legacy cards.
They can try and hide their Stoneforge, Goyf, Bob, Snapcaster, Hymn, Jitte and whatnot from Daze, Snare will still get the job done.
hmm that is a good idea actually. run spell snare in that spot over stifle and standstills
Well here is my list
creatures (22)
4 corelhelm commander
4 silvergil
4 cursecatcher
4 lord of atlantis
4 merrow reegerry
2 phantasmal image
instants (10)
3 swords to plowshares
4 force of will
4 daze
artifacts (4)
4 vials
lands (21)
4 wastelands
4 mutavaults
4 tundras
4 flooded strand
5 islands
sideboard
3 disenchant
1 path to exile
1 swords to plowshare
2 hibernation
2 relic of prog
1 tormod's crypt
3 spell pierce
2 ethersworn cannonist
I have 58 in maindeck. I'd like to go 61 cards. So the 3 remaining can be 1. 2 kira and 1 spell pierce; 2. 3 standstills. 3. 3 stifles or 4. 3 spell snares.
Blue already have small creature kill spells like Piracy Charm, but that is not a point.
Gut Shot is used vs Scryb Ranger (maverick), Dryad Arbor (no rug) when they fetch at the end of your turn in hope of Ordering random monster, Mother, Hierarch, Lackey, Lavamancer, Confidant, Clique... when you want to tap out for more important stuff. After all we play tempo deck.
purge def isn't a good suggestion over gut shot. I am not sure gut shot is playable, but psychic purge is not playable at all... Actually that card is pretty terrible.
I am usually a UB Tendrils player, but I've been playing the deck so much lately that I opted to play something else to take a week off from preparing for an upcoming event. I brew'd a Merfolk list based on a Modern deck that I've been building some some friends. The list was as follows:
Lands
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergil Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Merrow Reejerey
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
4 Dark Confidant
Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Daze
2 Dismember
Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Engineered Plague
1 Nature's Ruin
1 Dismember
2 Null Rod
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
3 Flusterstorm
I went 2-2 in the swiss and somehow advanced on tie breakers and ended up winning out making it to finals and drew to split the prize money.
In the swiss, I lost to Reanimator and Ur Counterbalance with Dreadnoughts. I beat Goblins and Ub Tezzeret artifacts.
Dark Confidant was easily the MVP of the day for me. I rarely lost a game in which I resolved a Dark Confidant. It allowed me to keep pace with Goblins when they would usually overrun Merfolk with the card advantage generated by Siege-Gang Commander and/or Goblin Ringleader. It also allowed me to draw into enough countermagic to edge out Reanimator in the first elimination round. I'm not familiar with the finer points of piloting Merfolk, but Dark Confidant seems like a great addition as it adds an element of card advantage. Additionally other decks now have to use their removal spells on Confidant instead of killing your lords. While I did not get the opportunity to test this, my guess would be that Dark Confidant would give you an edge in the mirror match as well.
I found the Reanimator match-up to be somewhat difficult. I lost 0-2 in the swiss and won a very intense match 2-1 in the first elimination round. Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is nearly impossible to overcome. Two out of the three games I lost where due to a resolved Norn. The hands I kept that ended up being successful where ones in which I had a turn one disruption play backed up by a free counterspell. For example, turn one Cursecatcher backed by either Daze or Force of Will. If you're not casting Cursecatcher turn one, I usually held up mana for Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm (backed by Daze or Force of Will). My short experience in this match has led me to believe that you forgo casting a turn two spell and wait until turn three to cast a threat. The reason why is Reanimator almost always plays Daze. So leaving mana up to pay for it effectively blanks one of their counterspells. While I boarded in Leyline of the Void, I never found it in my opening hand so its hard for me to make an assessment of its value. Moving forward, I would still keep Leyline in the sideboard. However, I think most Reanimator lists will adopt a Show and Tell in the maindeck and at least two more in the board so it is not a total solution. Flusterstorm was particularly useful in this match-up as it dominated the stack. The one thing to be wary of is that some lists are now running Animate Dead in an increasing quantity. This can make hands that have Cursecatcher and Flusterstorm somewhat risker. I would suggest using Cursecatcher and Flusterstorm to counter the Entomb or Careful Study if you put them on more than one Animate Dead.
Moving forward, I would make the following changes:
Maindeck
-Minus one Swamp, plus one Watery Grave: I wanted to try a basic Swamp because have access to a basic seemed nice given the amount of black cards in the maindeck and in the board. Upon further reflection, I think switching to Watergrave seems correct. It does the best Undergroudn Sea impression out there. I lost one game because I drew the Swamp early and couldn't generate the necessary blue mana to stay in the game. The list doesn't need access to black mana since Dismember can be cast for free and you can Vial in Dark Confidant if need be. The sideboard cards are have a single black mana in the casting cost (Leyline excluded), and the deck will be running ten ways to access black mana which seems sufficient.
Sideboard
-I would take out the single copy of Nature's Ruin. Plague covers the Elves match up while Dismember solves Tarmogofy issues. Nature's Ruin could stay in if I needed a solution to NO.dec. However, I think a copy or two of Phantasmal Image solves this issue just as well and has added value in other match-ups as well.
-Null Rod seems like the odd card because it shuts off Aether Vial. However, we had at least three decks of the B/W or mono white variety that played copious amounts of equipment. Null Rod seems like a great solution these decks as their creatures look much less impressive if you shut off their equipment.
I am usually a UB Tendrils player, but I've been playing the deck so much lately that I opted to play something else to take a week off from preparing for an upcoming event. I brew'd a Merfolk list based on a Modern deck that I've been building some some friends. The list was as follows:
Lands
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergil Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Merrow Reejerey
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
4 Dark Confidant
Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Daze
2 Dismember
Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Engineered Plague
1 Nature's Ruin
1 Dismember
2 Null Rod
1 Kira, Great Glass Spinner
3 Flusterstorm
I went 2-2 in the swiss and somehow advanced on tie breakers and ended up winning out making it to finals and drew to split the prize money.
In the swiss, I lost to Reanimator and Ur Counterbalance with Dreadnoughts. I beat Goblins and Ub Tezzeret artifacts.
Dark Confidant was easily the MVP of the day for me. I rarely lost a game in which I resolved a Dark Confidant. It allowed me to keep pace with Goblins when they would usually overrun Merfolk with the card advantage generated by Siege-Gang Commander and/or Goblin Ringleader. It also allowed me to draw into enough countermagic to edge out Reanimator in the first elimination round. I'm not familiar with the finer points of piloting Merfolk, but Dark Confidant seems like a great addition as it adds an element of card advantage. Additionally other decks now have to use their removal spells on Confidant instead of killing your lords. While I did not get the opportunity to test this, my guess would be that Dark Confidant would give you an edge in the mirror match as well.
I found the Reanimator match-up to be somewhat difficult. I lost 0-2 in the swiss and won a very intense match 2-1 in the first elimination round. Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is nearly impossible to overcome. Two out of the three games I lost where due to a resolved Norn. The hands I kept that ended up being successful where ones in which I had a turn one disruption play backed up by a free counterspell. For example, turn one Cursecatcher backed by either Daze or Force of Will. If you're not casting Cursecatcher turn one, I usually held up mana for Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm (backed by Daze or Force of Will). My short experience in this match has led me to believe that you forgo casting a turn two spell and wait until turn three to cast a threat. The reason why is Reanimator almost always plays Daze. So leaving mana up to pay for it effectively blanks one of their counterspells. While I boarded in Leyline of the Void, I never found it in my opening hand so its hard for me to make an assessment of its value. Moving forward, I would still keep Leyline in the sideboard. However, I think most Reanimator lists will adopt a Show and Tell in the maindeck and at least two more in the board so it is not a total solution. Flusterstorm was particularly useful in this match-up as it dominated the stack. The one thing to be wary of is that some lists are now running Animate Dead in an increasing quantity. This can make hands that have Cursecatcher and Flusterstorm somewhat risker. I would suggest using Cursecatcher and Flusterstorm to counter the Entomb or Careful Study if you put them on more than one Animate Dead.
Moving forward, I would make the following changes:
Maindeck
-Minus one Swamp, plus one Watery Grave: I wanted to try a basic Swamp because have access to a basic seemed nice given the amount of black cards in the maindeck and in the board. Upon further reflection, I think switching to Watergrave seems correct. It does the best Undergroudn Sea impression out there. I lost one game because I drew the Swamp early and couldn't generate the necessary blue mana to stay in the game. The list doesn't need access to black mana since Dismember can be cast for free and you can Vial in Dark Confidant if need be. The sideboard cards are have a single black mana in the casting cost (Leyline excluded), and the deck will be running ten ways to access black mana which seems sufficient.
Sideboard
-I would take out the single copy of Nature's Ruin. Plague covers the Elves match up while Dismember solves Tarmogofy issues. Nature's Ruin could stay in if I needed a solution to NO.dec. However, I think a copy or two of Phantasmal Image solves this issue just as well and has added value in other match-ups as well.
-Null Rod seems like the odd card because it shuts off Aether Vial. However, we had at least three decks of the B/W or mono white variety that played copious amounts of equipment. Null Rod seems like a great solution these decks as their creatures look much less impressive if you shut off their equipment.
I tried splashing black but shaky manabase, to much selfdamaging, being vulnerable to Stifle and Wasteland and similar 2-2 and 3-3 (my breakers were not so good) results made me turn back.
My next "project" is to see if I can find space for Snapcaster package. Why? Well, we are using only one (and maybe half) of the best 5 blue cards (Force, Jace, Brainstorm, Vendillion, Snapcaster; at least that is my opinion) so there is margin to improve.
Pros: Vial at 2, CA on a creature if Adept and Image copying Adept are not enough (and they are not), flashback on Spell Snare (and maybe Stifle) is fantastic (and also Spell Pierce, Beb/Hydroblast, Surgical Extraction, Gut Shot (:D) from sideboard),
Slops: no space whatsoever, not a merfolk, flashback on Dismember and Daze is ok at best, flashing Force is a longshot.
No need for playset because lack of spells but it could be the next step in "evolution".
Today is second day of GP Amsterdam. Let's hope that there is capable fish player so we can copy his list :)
Looks like Fish cannot do it no more. Sad to say its out the door of the proven section.
With so many burn and zoo players, I guess the fish players got knocked out pretty early.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...s11/welcome#00
One merfolk in top32, not good. At least he used Spell Snares...
Hi everybody!
Yesterday while many other players was in Amsterdam i went in a local Legacy Tournament, playing Merfolk MonoU, and i made 4-0-1 in Swiss doing top4 splitting the prize with the other finalist (he was playing ANT)
I really like the deck's perfomance of yesterday!
// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [CHP] Mutavault
13 [UG] Island
// Creatures
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
4 [ROE] Coralhelm Commander
2 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 [M12] Phantasmal Image
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
2 [NPH] Dismember
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [NPH] Dismember
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [TO] Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge
SB: 3 [MI] Cursed Totem
During the Swiss i win vs: Sliver (2-0), Burn(2-0), MonoU Faeries(2-1), UG Berserk Infect (2-0), and i ID with StifleNought to top4.
In top4 i beat BW Pikula (2-1) than as i said i split the prize with an ANT's player.
The deck was really good, i think i will cut 1 Island for the second Phantasmal Image that was Amazing! I also will probably drop the 3 cursed totem for the second Llawan the fourth Spell Pierce and probably also the fourth Dismember, another card that i would test is Surgical extraction instead of Relic of progenitus.
About Amsterdam i think that the problem has been the large amount of player with Maverick,Zoo and co. and also the large numer of card dedicated to the merfolk's MU, i think that a bad Merfolk's performance was expectable! ^^
The Merfolk Player in Amsterdam got paired against Elves, otherwise he couldve been in T8
Soooo..., nothing new to add? We solved the deck until Dark Ascension?
Shaving Cursecatcher, Commander, Reejerey, Daze or Force here and there but mostly we agree on what should be in a deck. How does your flexible slots serve you? All those cards like Image, Kira, Dismember, Pierce and so on, are dancing in the main, side and binder. What is your experience with them? Did you tried them all? Would you recommend anything particular that should become main cast, why and how many?
I think the flex slots are best left to meta decisions. So it could be said that yes, it's pretty much a solved problem.
Hi guys, this is my first post. Some decks use a random jitte in order to search it in copying stoneforge mystic with phantasmal image. I was wondering : what about using a batterskull in place of a jitte, tutorising it in the same way?
Also if you search batterskull with phantasmal image you still have to pay 5 colorless mana to cast batterskull, unless you play the white splash, because to use the Mystic's activated ability you need White mana ^^
So i think that Batterskull is pretty useless ^^
Hello everyone,
I am new to the source but have been a long time fish player. Couple quick question to try and stir up this dead thread (no pun intended).
1. With all the snapcaster.dec running around, is two Kira, Great Glass-Spinner worth it in the main deck? Granted she is very reactive and does not play nice with vial or jitte :(
2. Whats is everyone's thoughts on Phantasmal Image? Currently I am running 4 and have not looked back. It copies LoA and opponent's goyfs but lacks synergy with reejery and adept.
3.Is black worth the splash? I know the debate they could stifle fetch lands or wasteland your black source. Perish and to some degree death mark help in the match-ups where the fishes sink instead of swim...Also, as an added bonus the three dismembers I play along with two surgical extractions will not cost me as much life...
-Buffalo
Re: Image with Reejerey and Adept, I'd consider the numbers of Kira you're putting in as well, as they're all non-Merfs.
However, if you can lower your number of Reejerey and Kira, you can get by keeping your Vial at 2, which negates some of the downside of running Adepts with Images (non-Merfolk).
My proposed list with a black splash so far is as follows:
main:
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Dark Confidant
2 Phantasmal Image
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 AEther Vial
2 Dismember
5 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
Side Board:
3 Spell Pierce
3 Perish
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Go For the Throat
Reason for more kill cards is to take care of green/white decks while trying to remain having decent game against combo and graveyard based decks.
Hi everyone, I played in a Legacy 2.5K tournament this weekend, and I was running pretty hot despite the fact that I didn't get much practice in for the event. I was primed to land in the top 8 when I faced down 2 Maverick decks in succession that knocked me out.
I've never played against the deck before, but it was impressive to see it in action against Merfolk. The only game I managed to win was because he mulliganed to 5 and I had an explosive start with multiple lords.
So I guess my question is- are there any cards that make this matchup closer to 50/50? Mother of Runes and Scryb Ranger felt like the game was over by turn 3, and Zenith made sure that Ranger was in play literally every game I played.
I tell you what though, I really regretted cutting the Jittes out of my sideboard after I was beaten down by a Scryb Ranger equipped with one, lol.
gut shot, dismember, wasteland and submerge were good cards for me against maverick
Ari Lax has a premium article up SCG concerning the path that aggro decks (inlc Merfolk) should take. He suggested hard counters such as Spell Snare in lieu of the taxing counters such as Daze and Cursecatcher (which could be replaced by the 1CC Merfolk dude that flies when level-ed up.