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Over simplifying? No, much worse. Your point is if it was a decent deck playing in a meta of a bunch of bad decks it will win but did you even take a look at the results before saying that? That tournament had 174 players and take a look at the top 8:Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...mpionship-Top8
That deck has proven itself already in that tournament and nothing will change that.
I actually like that list. It reminds me of one a guy used to play in my shop. He ran Bloodbraid Elf, Hierarch, and planeswalkers too. I wouldn't exactly call it Zoo but it works as a deck. It smashes the ever so dreaded Counterbalance matchup, and has Nacatls and Goyfs and small guys to still take care of Merfolk and Gobs.
Edit: One other thing, I don't think Wastelands maindeck are the way to go, even with Hierarch.
I'm actually thinking that 1-2x Wastelands would be beneficial for this deck, at the very least to get with Knight of the Reliquary. Why? Because I feel like a lot more decks are playing academy ruins, and that card is terrible for us. It can also be useful vs. decks running manlands, delay people from playing a Jace, randomly screw people, and help us against a little bit versus lands. I almost certainly wouldn't want to cut a spell for it though, and I really like the 21 colored lands, but it's very probable to replace one of them with a colorless source without much loss in functionality/consistency. I also think that's it's a very strong play for us to play a guy, and waste their mana source next turn, so drawing it shouldn't be a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
I'm actually thinking that 1-2x Wastelands would be beneficial for this deck, at the very least to get with Knight of the Reliquary. Why? Because I feel like a lot more decks are playing academy ruins, and that card is terrible for us. It can also be useful vs. decks running manlands, delay people from playing a Jace, randomly screw people, and help us against a little bit versus lands. I almost certainly wouldn't want to cut a spell for it though, and I really like the 21 colored lands, but it's very probable to replace one of them with a colorless source without much loss in functionality/consistency. I also think that's it's a very strong play for us to play a guy, and waste their mana source next turn, so drawing it shouldn't be a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
My problem is that the decks where you would wanna screw with those, have recursion. So unless you're going to oneshot them on that turn like it is in a episode of Bleach, then it doesn't seem that good, in my opinion at least. I would rather have either more colored land or a spell that is going to do something. I've just always hated on Wasteland. I know it's potential, but this deck is color hungry like a MoFo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
Not always. Decks hurt by Wasteland that don't have recursion : Zoo, Pro-Bant, ThopterFoundry, Storm, etcQuote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
I think this deck functions off of three mana really well. The assertion that the deck requires all colored lands is incorrect. Wasteland is the best card in your deck for many matchups, especially when you are the beatdown. Denying your opponent a Land can break a game wide open. Turn 1 Hierarch, Turn 2 Waste + Tarmogoyf/Pridemage is very strong. There has been a long running stigma against running Wasteland in 3 color aggro decks, because consistantly hitting the correct mana can be troublesome. It seems that with enemy colored fetches, Noble Hierarch, and Sylvan Library, you can effectively play the Zoo deck with Wasteland. The winner even went further with it, splashing 2 blue duals in order to play Meddling Mage, which seems better than ever. Skarrg, the rage pits actually seems very good too! In a format where Tarmogoyf and Wild Nacatl's often stare down equally big creatures, holding mana open along with Skarrg is strong. They can't block, and you play something second main with the mana. It can also help cast Tarmogoyf, Knight, Elspeth, and Library. Can we at least discuss that card?
I think it is on par with Jitte in Zoo right now. That +1/+1 and trample fit all our dumb beats quite nicely. However, like Jitte, it is sort of a mana pit. Sure, sometimes they won't block and it'll be profitable, but we want them to block. We want to beat up their dudes in the red zone.
The idea of Noble Hierarchs and Planeswalkers seems like another deck to me. I mean, sans BSA, wouldn't the Rubin Zoo of late last year translate nicely into Legacy? That deck was built for a format full of Naya zoo with fast dudes and burn. It won and is a great case study. It is probably true that this deck was built for that metagame, and to play it untuned anywhere else would probably lead do mediocre performances. However, that doesn't mean we can't take and learn from it and translate that strategy into our own metagames.
Went 4-0 with wasteland zoo last night at our local Columbus Legacy tournament. played:
Enchantress 2-1
Survival Elves 2-0
Landstill 2-1
Lands 2-0 (now 3 for 3 in matches against lands, 5-0-1 in games)
Despite not getting to play either merfolk or goblins, (both still incredible MUs, especially with 4 lavamancers, 3equips+3stoneforge main) the deck trounced. Wastelands were critical in literally every MU, killing serra's sanctum against enchantress, Tiaga (for anger + mana elves) against Survival elves, 2ns white sources and factories against landstill. Against lands: endstep, fetch waste, untap, fetch waste, kill both mazes, kill you, and enstep, fecth waste, waste chasm, untap, fetch bojuka bog, exile chasm and loam, eventually kill you. Cannot say enough about the utility of wasteland in this perticular aggro deck, having 23 lands instead of 21 also causes fewer mulligans. I've even double-wasted myself inside attacks to make an unblocked knight lethal. I would say don't just believe me, test it, but the stubbornness of the people in DTB forums keeps innovation from happening.
care to post a list?
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
// Lands
3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [PT] Mountain (1)
1 [LRW] Forest (2)
1 [SHM] Plains (4)
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [R] Savannah
2 [R] Taiga
2 [R] Plateau
// Creatures
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
// Spells
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [WWK] Basilisk Collar
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix
3 [LG] Sylvan Library
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
Yes, there are only 4 grims and 4 helixes that go to the dome, but with combo on the downswing, killing fast isn't as important IMO as being consistent and more powerful in the red zone. I cut the bolts as looking at the DTBs, I was boarding in StPs (the blood moons and the SoFI used to be plows) against all but combo and landstill, so i moved them to the main, as swords deals with goyf much more frequently than bolt does. Before people mention path, look at the list again, do you really want to help people find their basics with 4 wastes main and SB blood moons? It's just my take on it, and it has tested very well against all of the DTBs save for TES, which can occasionally be beaten with a well timed waste or a lucky teeg, but combo is our class cannon. This deck is made to beat the rest of the field.
God I envy you guys that live in less cut throat metagames. I'm not saying everywhere else is under developed or anything but everyone I've talked to says Detroit/SE michigan has one of the most competitive meta games in the country. Ann Arbor for legacy, Livonia for standard.
Well if you play there then you can play anywhere, eh? Might feel good to go on a trip, bring your legacy build and crush a local tournament
We are. Except we are bringing like 8 copies of Enchantress.
Enchantress Day!
Man, I bet that shop will permaban you guys lol
@media: Digging the decklist, but only testing will stop my kringing at the lack of certain "staples" we all know and love for Naya Zoo. The main thing I get behind is teh 4 wastelands. feels good man
Do you really need 3 Sylvan Libraries? Don't the 3 Stoneforge Mystics and 3 Equipment offer some form of card selection too?Quote:
Originally Posted by Media314r8
I also wonder if you should not run Lightning Bolt over Helixes? You also need mana to equip your creatures or play an equipment so you might not have 2 mana available. Playing an equipment also has a negative influence on your threat density and even tempo loss if your creature is sworded or burned when you equip it.Being able to burn an opponents creature can offset that problem.
With a 6 card SFM package and three libraries, this is way more of a midrange Naya deck than a proper Zoo build. Therefore, I can see the utility of Helix over bolt as a plus. Playing this deck like a fast zoo build will be more than awkward. Playing it like a midrange beatdown deck is probably the best application of the list
For the original zoo (those that do not run lynxes) lists which are also considered midrange by many 2 libraries are more than sufficient. And libraries in multiples are not that good.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
I wonder how effective this deck is vs zoo decks that utilize the early game better.
Apart from KotR and maybe Tarmogoyf every creature dies to burn removal of which the 'fast' zoo decks have more. I have 14 removal (of which 10 burn spells), this deck only 8 (of which 4 burn spells). I'm theorizing here but it would seem to me that this deck has taken a lot of damage before it gets to midgame. I should be able to keep on attacking and burning away early blockers.
It seems to me its hard to utilize SFM lets say turn 2 or 3 when the pressure is on. And SFM is a weak creature in itself so bad for blocking. And to be able to make use of the equipment you don't want to lose any of the creature on the board, especially if SFM is the only creature.
I guess wasteland compensates these effects somewhat because it would screw my manabase so maybe that negates the effects mentioned above. But it seems to me that opposing wastelands also do this deck no good.
I think I would be a bit more conservative if I wanted to play a list like these list and take out 1 SFM, an equipment, one Helix and a Library to fit in 4 Lightning Bolt.
To be honest Im not convinced that the extra midgame options this deck has adds to the midrange possibilities of the 'original' Zoo build. But I do like running wastelands in Zoo. I haven't taken the time yet to try them out myself (I'm more into UW Tempo and Goblins atm) but I will sometime in the future.
Im happy to hear Media314r8 's take on all this theorizing.
3 librarys and a 6pack SFM is way too heavy for my tastes. So many other decks roll the midgame that, through my experience with Zoo, that is the warning track. I agree with your accessments though, I too like a set of Wastes in Zoo as innovation. Did you play the Utrecht Open last month? Have we ever played? I'm probably the only American (that I know of) playing Magic in holland
I have seen some versions of zoo with Fireblast and gaddock teeg in main making top 8.
What do you think about include Gaddock Teeg and Fireblast in main deck ?
I dont want to have gaddock teeg in play and drawing a Fireblast but I would like to read your opinions :)
I run 2 Blasts and teeg's maindeck. You just have to be careful, that's all. Shoot him with Lavamancer, run him into a blocker, path him, there's ways out.