Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SageShadows
What do you guys think about the Death and Taxes match-up? I went against two yesterday and one a few weeks back. I've succeeded in drawing the first two and getting face stomped in the win and in yesterday. I don't know if I'm just playing poorly or if it's a genuinely hard match-up. Non-pyroclasm related thoughts? =P
I hadn't had too much trouble with it. I treat it like a lot of the fair midrangey MUs and board in extra bombs like Entreat and Elspeth. Counterbalance really isn't bad against them if you can stop their Vial. Needles, more sweepers, and extra artifact hate are also solid. I feel like it's an easier Maverick since they can't shut you down with Teeg. Watch out for mana denial and don't walk into Cataclysm. What about the MU in particular was giving you trouble?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
I hadn't had too much trouble with it. I treat it like a lot of the fair midrangey MUs and board in extra bombs like Entreat and Elspeth. Counterbalance really isn't bad against them if you can stop their Vial. Needles, more sweepers, and extra artifact hate are also solid. I feel like it's an easier Maverick since they can't shut you down with Teeg. Watch out for mana denial and don't walk into Cataclysm. What about the MU in particular was giving you trouble?
Revoker on Top with no Swords in hand sucks.
-Matt
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
Revoker on Top with no Swords in hand sucks.
-Matt
Yeah true. Revoker on Top is a pain. Still, it's infinitely easier to deal with that instead of a Pithing Needle.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I've always found D&T to be difficult. Revoker, Thalia, Vial, Mana denial, etc. Also Cataclysm post-board is unbeatable if it resolves.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SageShadows
What do you guys think about the Death and Taxes match-up? I went against two yesterday and one a few weeks back. I've succeeded in drawing the first two and getting face stomped in the win and in yesterday. I don't know if I'm just playing poorly or if it's a genuinely hard match-up. Non-pyroclasm related thoughts? =P
It really depends on the skill of DnT player. If you really want to go after that deck, Porphyry Nodes is one option. Just be aware of Thalia and Mother at all times. Oh, don't forget about Cataclysm. It caught me off guard once.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
L-Luck
I'm running the following list to decent local success. It's mainly designed to destroy RUG, Elves and random decks and that's what it does.
Just make sure to keep enough win conditions in in matchups where you board out Jaces (RUG ie.). If there was a single card solution to make the bad Goblins matchup better, I would be open to suggestions. Everything else feels at least even. I guessainly because nobody plays those weird decks you apparently never win against here like 12 Post or Enchantress.
If you are focusing on RUG delver, I would suggest at least 1 Supreme Verdict. When you want to mass removal, you just want to do it outright, why bother with the risk of Spell Pierce or Stifle Miracle trigger? Better yet, Verdict would also work against Goblins.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
I hadn't had too much trouble with it. I treat it like a lot of the fair midrangey MUs and board in extra bombs like Entreat and Elspeth. Counterbalance really isn't bad against them if you can stop their Vial. Needles, more sweepers, and extra artifact hate are also solid. I feel like it's an easier Maverick since they can't shut you down with Teeg. Watch out for mana denial and don't walk into Cataclysm. What about the MU in particular was giving you trouble?
Pretty much everything. Vial on turn one happens a lot more than expected and Cavern of Souls always rears its head. Every card that they draw is essentially a threat to me that I need to deal with (for example, Mother of Runes basically makes you use a StP on her or wait until you have two, etc...). Mana denial hits pretty hard as well and is sometimes unavoidable (especially if you're trying to Wear/Tear an artifact), along with Thalias so I can't really get any defenses going. Revoker on Top, like someone said earlier, locked me out of a Terminus on the top. You really don't have an option to not walk into a Cataclysm because you need mana to Entreat and fight through Ports/Wastelands/Thalia/Mangara (although I actually tied a match because the guy Cataclysmed at the wrong time...). Granted, I've lost only 1 match against them, but the other times, I couldn't find for the life of me how to finish games on time and actually win instead of finishing Game 2 with 3 minutes left.
Also Flickerwisps show up a lot in taking out Angel tokens...
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Regarding the DnT matchup, sulfur elemental takes out moms, Thalias, mangaras, flickerwisps (though they still can flicker something) at instant speed, so you can do it in response to port or wasteland activations on your red sources. They also can't save their legendaries with karakas or give something protection one last time with mom. If you're on the red splash, sulfur elemental is probably one of the best cards you can bring in against them.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Against Death and Taxes red prooves once again, why it is the best splashcolor for the Miracle-Archetype. Pyroclasm can be maindecked, but is a very strong sideboardcard by itself too. Even though Mother can protect her fellows from Clasm it still is a cc2-wipe-the-board. But if I'd construct a manabase for a metagame, with DnT as a sure component I would defintiely consider more red sources mainboard, or even a Mountain. In addition to Pyroclasm, which has many applications besides the white men - not to forget it's strength when combined with RIP - red offers, as pointed out earlier, Sulfur Elemental. This card is more narrow as it is only geared towards DnT, Maverick, Lingering Souls.dec but stronger than Pyroclasm in this very matchup. Instant, a body, unprotectable and permanent sweepeffect is just that great.
Plus Sulfur Elemental serves another purpose. I once played in a win-and-in-match for Top8, opponent was Junk (without Mother of Runes + Lingering Souls - so Elemental wouldn't hit a creature). I won the first game after 30 minutes, G2 I died quickly to manascrew and I started G3 with about 10 minutes or so on the clock. Could I win this? Well sure, I boardet out slow cards and boardet in all possible creatures I had, all removal, and all spells that could be used as removal - Jace. I started with Top, T2 Mystic (had 2 mb), T3 Clique, T4 Elemental into the win. 2 Minutes on the clock when he was dead. This possibilty is not to be overlooked. Little tricks like this and my way of playing (fast as lightning - though obv. never without flaws) enabled me to draw only one single match of sanctioned Legacy with the Miracles Archetype.
One topic I want to bring up once again is how you build your manabase. The manabase I played at GP Strasbourg (to be seen in my signature) was greedy...very greedy. But it worked out well over the course of two days. How do you structure your manabase? If I had to I'd define the following options:
1) 23-24 lands. Quite some utilitylands, couple of basics, couple of duals, lots of fetches. This is probably the strongest manabase in the meaning of what it can do. Different utilitylands open up new possibilities in lategame and the more fetchlands you have the better does your Top get.
2) 21-22 lands. Alot of basics, Duals and Fetchlands. Probably 0-1 utilitylands. A very stable way of deploying mana is laying out lands that tap for U/W. Though there always is the possibility to stumble on landdrops on T4/5.
3) 20-21 lands. Plays either Cantrips and/or manadeploying cards like Land Tax or Tithe. You will probably never get flooded early, but once again - may stumble on landdrops in the midgame. Though a low landcount enables drawing more bombs lategame it may seem dangerous.
-- this point of view is largely simplified, but should demonstrate the different opinions when building a manabase. Which do you prefer?
I always played with about 23 lands, and some utility-stuff for the lategame. The high landcount stems from the simply reason, that I tested alot against a very good tempopilot. Though I reached a point where my deck could manage to squeeze out win after win it was mostly due to the high land count and the strong maindecked cards like RIP/Verdict. Playing with less lands always ended in a disaster for me. Stumbling on landdrops. wasting of Brainstorms and stuff like this make it very hard for me to play less than 23. If I had to play 22 I'd probably play a 100%mana-manabase. Only Duals, Fetchlands and Basics. I don't even know if I'd play one or two wastelandable plains.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
1) 23-24 lands. Quite some utilitylands, couple of basics, couple of duals, lots of fetches. This is probably the strongest manabase in the meaning of what it can do. Different utilitylands open up new possibilities in lategame and the more fetchlands you have the better does your Top get.
2) 21-22 lands. Alot of basics, Duals and Fetchlands. Probably 0-1 utilitylands. A very stable way of deploying mana is laying out lands that tap for U/W. Though there always is the possibility to stumble on landdrops on T4/5.
3) 20-21 lands. Plays either Cantrips and/or manadeploying cards like Land Tax or Tithe. You will probably never get flooded early, but once again - may stumble on landdrops in the midgame. Though a low landcount enables drawing more bombs lategame it may seem dangerous.
Great breakdown and a very good topic. I have played and thoroughly enjoyed a lot of UW Miracles (no splash) and found the magic number of lands to be exactly 22, which I split between a utility land (sometimes a second Karakas) and another fetch, or two extra fetches. I started with a 20 land list with 4 Ponders and found through several matches that 20 lands put you in danger territory, even if you have 4 additional filter/draw/shuffle effects and an active Top.
In my experience even with Top in play you can get 3 really shitty cards coming up (sometimes for several turns) with no shuffle effects and Ponder requires a single blue mana, which in the early stages of your match you really need for counterspells. I replaced 2 Ponders with 2 fetches to give me the extra possibilities for land drops and have preferred it, all the while knowing that I'm playing a format where Wasteland and Stifle are played.
I think 24 lands is excessive with the amount of cantripping and filtering you can do, but I understand if you are running more lands specifically for utility and less for more mana.
Back to Ponder: I have not regretted cutting 2 of them in my list, and I totally get that A. It's a filter, cantrip, AND possible shuffle, B. It can help you get what you need RIGHT AWAY, and C. It ups your blue count for Force of Will. I just found way too often that I was looking for lands with it, possibly more than 90% of the time.
4 Brainstorms, 2 Ponders, 4 Sensei's Divining Tops, and 3 Jaces is probably enough, I think, and 22 lands is enough to get reliable land drops and less of a chance of drawing lands late game when you really don't need them. But by then you should be winning and have a Top in play, etc...
Also, I fully acknowledge that it has been proven on this thread that the difference between 20-21-22 lands is very marginal, but when those extra lands are fetches I feel it shores up a major weakness of this deck: überdurdling.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
With storm on the rise do you seem UWr becoming even stronger / more popular?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kingsey
With storm on the rise do you seem UWr becoming even stronger / more popular?
Why would this particular version wield any significant advantage? Pyroclasm and Blasts?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Why would this particular version wield any significant advantage? Pyroclasm and Blasts?
I think he just means the Miracles archtype in general... but perhaps he's referring to ANT's higher dependence on cantrips and the fact that ANT has seen a lot of publicity lately? (although I think TES is both scarier and better positioned in the meta)
Also, that Miracles list that top 8'd SCG recently looks familiar. Congrats if it's one of us! I think the higher number of Death and Taxes (and any trend that hinders Shardless BUG) is good for Miracles.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
ha ha ha~~
Christopher Hawker's RiP Helm
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=58693
I find Chris's version's very cute. Tutor for Seat of Synod? 1 Karakas but no legendary creature, blind anticipating opponent's legendary creature.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Tutor for Seat of Synod?
I've actually thought about this before and there have definitely been games where I wish I had one (to be fair though, I still just prefer an Island).
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Seat:
I've played with it and I like it. It's never negatively impacted me, but being able to tutor for my fourth land has won me several games. There's also the infrequently-relavent-but-still-there possibility to put a 0 on top to counter lotus petal, LED, Ancestral Visions, etc.
Karakas:
I'm not playing any legenedaries, so I finally dropped my Karakas. I figure that in order to draw it often enough to be useful, I probably need more than one and in those matchups, Karakas probably isn't the best thing I could be doing anyway.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
e.tutor for seat is also nice if you want to dump the hand and hide behind ensnaring bridge (allthough it's not in his list)
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Or to grab a tutorable zero for Counterbalance if you've already blown EE.
Also, this happened yesterday at a 95-man. This is why you run Red: to blow Jund out with Blood Moon. Then, you bend them over a table with EE on 2, apparently:
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t...psa18e99c8.jpg
Nice 4 for 1, Curt.
-Matt
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Back to Basics would work without splashing red
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Back to Basics would work without splashing red
I think that if you're going to go the route of interfering with an opponent's manabase then it's worth going for the absolute lock of Blood Moon. This strategy is the most advantageous for Miracles in the matchups against the BGx decks of the format, which also pack Deathrite Shaman and, most importantly, Abrupt Decay. With Back to Basics the BGx decks still have live draws into their Abrupt Decay/Deathrite Shaman colours, and they can relatively easily fight their way back.
It isn't nearly as easy for those decks to combat Blood Moon. If you resolve Blood Moon on a board that doesn't have a Shaman then you force them to have the Decay (and the available mana open to play it) or the game is basically over. Even with a Shaman online all it takes is a removal spell or a Rest In Peace to secure the lock. I run 2 Blood Moons (sideboard) with 2 Enlightened Tutors and found that I consistently put down a Moon early enough to severely cripple my opponents.
I feel like I can count the number of games that I've lost to BGx decks after resolving a Blood Moon on one hand. It's the best. Play multiples.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Back to Basics would work without splashing red
Not the same. Anyways, Blood Moon is not the reason to splash red, and tipically only an careless Jund player lets himself get caught by a Blood Moon.
