[Deck] Dredge

After some playtesting against various decks I did some minor changes in my list due to more consistency.
What do you think about this list?

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Nature's Claim
3 Unmask (not sure about that)
1 Dread Return
2 Nether Shadow
1 dr-target (Flayer/Iona/...)

I wanted to maximize on draw spells and also increase the count of dredgers to 12 = Unfortunately, one Putrid Imp had to go.

Kindly orient me how to do sideboard to some matchups..what do I need to side-out and side-in? thanks!

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Originally Posted by Juicy Karaage

Just played in a 42 people event for 6 rounds and went to Top 4

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
1 Dread Return
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ashen Rider
4 Nature's Claim
4 Firestorm
3 Nether Shadow

Round 1 vs RUG 2-0
I won the dice roll and casted too many draw spells for him to handle, boarded in the Nether Shadows, Firestorm, a Dread Return and Ashen Rider for G2. Draw, Discard, Dredge into 4 Bridges and an Ichorid.

Round 2 vs RUG 2-0
My opponent was a friend who planned on leaving later, so he gave me the win. He still handed me my ass in that practice game.

Round 3 vs Elves 0-2
We both mulled to 6, i had a shitty hand with Gemstone Mine, Cephalid Coliseum and a Dark Blast. I kept Darkblasting everything till the mine ran out of counters, not surprisingly, i got stomped. I kept a Firestorm, City of Brass, Cephalid, and a Golgari Gravetroll. I Firestorm'd a bunch of Elves and Deathrite Shaman, throwing away the Troll which he Surgical Extraction'd that costed me the match.

Round 4 vs Elves 2-1
Well, you can pretty much guess that the Meta here is filled with Green. T1 Putrid Imp, T2 Discard 2 Stinkweed Imp the Breakthrough. In G2, i kept a slow hand for no logical reason. He GSZ for Scavenging Ooze and i scooped. G3 i kept a hand with Firestorm, Looting, Breakthrough, LED and no Dredgers. Looting into more draw spells with still no Dredger in sight. Drew into a Bridge, Narcomoeba and Cabal Therapy while my opponent builds his Elf army slowly. He finally lands a Deathrite Shaman which warranted me to use Firestorm. Still no Dredgers. Since i practically had no land and was bound to lose anyway, i casted the Breakthrough for 1 hoping to hit a Dredger and another draw spell. I did. Discarded Troll and casted another Breakthrough to dig out Elesh Norn and the remaining Narcomoebas

Round 5 vs TES 2-0
T1 Looting, T2 Breakthrough. G2, i had mulled to 5 with a hand of City of Brass, Putrid Imp, Putrid Imp, Stinkweed Imp, Stinkweed Imp, Breakthrough. He T1 Duress'd my draw spell. Top deck'd a Cephalid and dredged out Iona with 3 Narcomoeba.

Round 6 vs Maverick ID

Quarter Finals vs Elves 2-0
Yeah, my 3rd Elves opponent for the day. I mull to 5 with Cephalid, 2 Dredgers and a LED. Since i though i was losing anyway, i decided to play risky by just hoping to draw into a blue draw spell. Breakthrough saved the day. G2 i drew my Godhand. 2 LED, Breakthrough, City of Brass, Stinkweed Imp. Elesh Norn on T1

We split the Top 4 prizes since the weather did a number on most of the attendees' health, including my own:laugh:

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Originally Posted by sakote

Kindly orient me how to do sideboard to some matchups..what do I need to side-out and side-in? thanks!

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Well, i generally love to win in a grindy way. If the opponent's deck doesn't have access to white mana, i go for Nether Shadows, Dread Returns and sometimes a DR target, Firestorm, taking out 4 LEDs and 4 Breakthroughs and maybe a Cabal Therapy if the opponent is Jund, BUG or RUG. Against decks that have RIP, i take out 4 LEDs for 4 Nature's Claim in game 2. In game 3 if im on the play, most of the time i just try to race the hate by bringing in DR and Iona. In combo match ups, i take out cards like Darkblast, since it doesn't do anything aside from dredging, and 1 Putrid Imp. Elesh Norn for the mirror, Elves. Iona for Omni Tell, Storm. Ashen Rider for Sneakshow and maybe Omni Tell, i never tested it out against them.

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

After some playtesting against various decks I did some minor changes in my list due to more consistency.
What do you think about this list?

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Nature's Claim
3 Unmask (not sure about that)
1 Dread Return
2 Nether Shadow
1 dr-target (Flayer/Iona/...)

I wanted to maximize on draw spells and also increase the count of dredgers to 12 = Unfortunately, one Putrid Imp had to go.

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I like the list it's similiar to mine ( -1 a breakthrough, + 1imp). Also, the thirteenth land I find to be extremely important, dredge fundamentally needs a land in its opening hand and tarnished citadels allow for turn two coliseum activations. I havn't missed the fourth breakthrough in my list although storm isn't so prevalent where I play. I have never played less than twelve dredgers so l'm a bit biased in that regard, twelve seems great. Three ichorid has served me well to this point, I think going down to three imps is fine as well( I really *like the fourth imp for consistency issues). How come only two nature's claims and not four, hows unmask been?

On a sidenote I see people playing only three Cephalid Colisieums at times, this card seems to be a complete blow-out against most blue /chalice based decks.

(First time poster!)

I am going to be playing the "Hollywood" Manaless Dredge deck at a small legacy tournament this weekend. This means running Verdant catacombs and some green anti-hate cards in the sideboard. I've been goldfishing it and playing the odd game against people.

I am wondering about some tips on how to play the sideboarded games. It seems to me that I am dead if I don't draw something like this following in my opening hand:

* green mana source (Forest, Dryad Arbor, Verdant Catacombs)
* green spell that destroys artifact or enchantment that will hate me out (Nature's Claim, Reverent Silence)
* at least one dredger that I can discard

If I don't have a 7-card hand like this, is it correct to mulligan down to 6 and take my chances with needing another turn?

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Originally Posted by grmpytopdecker

(First time poster!)

I am going to be playing the "Hollywood" Manaless Dredge deck at a small legacy tournament this weekend. This means running Verdant catacombs and some green anti-hate cards in the sideboard. I've been goldfishing it and playing the odd game against people.

I am wondering about some tips on how to play the sideboarded games. It seems to me that I am dead if I don't draw something like this following in my opening hand:

* green mana source (Forest, Dryad Arbor, Verdant Catacombs)
* green spell that destroys artifact or enchantment that will hate me out (Nature's Claim, Reverent Silence)
* at least one dredger that I can discard

If I don't have a 7-card hand like this, is it correct to mulligan down to 6 and take my chances with needing another turn?

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yes and no, manaless is a different beast, there's a thread in this forum about manaless dredge! check it out!

about your question:

It's advisable (is that a word? bad english here) to have those cards in your opening hand, but try to play your game,not your opponent's game, unless you are sure they are packing leyline or RIP try not to mull a hand with dredger+ SW or phantasmagorian.

I own manaless but I'm not that good with the deck, I find it very slow compared to the many combo decks in the format, but it's still a fun and powerfull deck IMO

Advisable is indeed a word, I think your English is good.

I'm probably playing in a nice sized event this Saturday, if I do, there's a very good chance I'll be piloting 4color zombie.dec.

I don't see the reason for the "13th" land
I would rather a flame kin, to make the win turn, one turn faster.
Other wise the return, does not seem worth the only target being troll
The sb unmask, is sweet now. Most decks with rip, or cage in sb, will auto keep it in opening hang. No matter how bad the hand. If they don't have it, they lose. Dredge Is very constant when it starts working.
unmask is sweet on the draw.
Debatable on the play, IMO

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2

So you'd rather aggressively mulligan in hopes of funding one of your 8 gold lands? Most hands with only Coliseum aren't keepable, most hands require a gold land. I personally have always preferred play 14 lands, 10 of them being golden.

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

So you'd rather aggressively mulligan in hopes of funding one of your 8 gold lands? Most hands with only Coliseum aren't keepable, most hands require a gold land. I personally have always preferred play 14 lands, 10 of them being golden.

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You have said this before, but never backed it up with math. I have played dredge with anything between 12 and 14 lands. You can have issues either way.

And if you run DR without dedicated targets troll isn't your only target. I find myself casting 1 or 2 therapies followed by returning an ichorid most of the time. Ideally followed by another therapy of course. What is your opponent going to do against 10+ zombies on turn 2 or 3? In a pre boarding game you probably don't face sweepers and vs combo you should have taken enough resources out of their hand to prevent the kill next turn.

It shouldn't need to be backed up with math, the dfference is obvious.

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Originally Posted by tyriion

You have said this before, but never backed it up with math. I have played dredge with anything between 12 and 14 lands. You can have issues either way.

And if you run DR without dedicated targets troll isn't your only target. I find myself casting 1 or 2 therapies followed by returning an ichorid most of the time. Ideally followed by another therapy of course. What is your opponent going to do against 10+ zombies on turn 2 or 3? In a pre boarding game you probably don't face sweepers and vs combo you should have taken enough resources out of their hand to prevent the kill next turn.

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If you want to therapy after the DR anyways you might also consider Golgari Thug as a reasonable target. Saccing him in return to Cabal Therapy gives you a Narcomoeba on the top of your deck in addition to the zombies ;)

I DR Ichorid only if the 3 damage are needed or I want more zombies and lack another sac outlet.

As for the lands...I did not have issues with 12 lands (8 golden) most of the time and I rarely mulligan with Quadlaser Dredge anyways. Depending on what you cut for the land you might also miss this card later on while dredging lands in a critical moment where alternative card might have been better. Nevertheless...I think anything between 12 lands (8 golden) and 14 lands (10 golden) is ok and up to once personal taste and experiences. Coming from Quadlaser you can only cut good cards for additional lands or DR or targets. It is hard to evaluate the loss and gain...at the moment I am playing 2 DR main without targets and enjoying it so far. Cuts were 1 ichorid 1 Breakthrough (not sure here...alternatives were Putrid Imp and the 4th Thug...but I like them to much in the grindier games).

Greetings Chris

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Originally Posted by Mindlash

If you want to therapy after the DR anyways you might also consider Golgari Thug as a reasonable target. Saccing him in return to Cabal Therapy gives you a Narcomoeba on the top of your deck in addition to the zombies ;)

I DR Ichorid only if the 3 damage are needed or I want more zombies and lack another sac outlet.

As for the lands...I did not have issues with 12 lands (8 golden) most of the time and I rarely mulligan with Quadlaser Dredge anyways. Depending on what you cut for the land you might also miss this card later on while dredging lands in a critical moment where alternative card might have been better. Nevertheless...I think anything between 12 lands (8 golden) and 14 lands (10 golden) is ok and up to once personal taste and experiences. Coming from Quadlaser you can only cut good cards for additional lands or DR or targets. It is hard to evaluate the loss and gain...at the moment I am playing 2 DR main without targets and enjoying it so far. Cuts were 1 ichorid 1 Breakthrough (not sure here...alternatives were Putrid Imp and the 4th Thug...but I like them to much in the grindier games).

Greetings Chris

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Yes, good point about the thug.

And your comments about the number of lands are exactly how I feel about it. I guess it's less obvious than some others would like it to be.

It's not obvious at all, you can Google for the odds of drawing 1 land of 11 lands from a 7 card hand in a 60 card deck - hint look at older versions of Legacy and Vintage Storm decks and you'll usually see ~11 lands because it's the point of diminishing returns per additional land. If you want to consistently cast Cabal Therapy, Putrid Imp, Firestorm and Faithless Looting (sans LED) then 8 gold lands are not enough. You also really need to think about increasing the chances of having 2 lands just for hard casting Golgari Thug or 3 lands for flashing back Faithless Looting.

You never, ever need a dedicated target for Dread Return, there's a lot of value in Golgari Thug for recurring a Narcomoeba off a Therapy sac, Ichorid for generating Zombie Tokens, Putrid Imp for discarding the rest of your hand etc. to the point where you always have something incredibly useful, if not immediately devastating, to get value out of Dread Return.

More than 3 ichorid is unnecessary, the 4th is only really for Tormod's Crypt decks and even then you're probably better off with an Ashen Ghoul for diversity vs Surgical Extraction. MD dread returns doesn't really serve a purpose, that's just one less land or business spell you could've raped them with before Surgical is a factor.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

It's not obvious at all, you can Google for the odds of drawing 1 land of 11 lands from a 7 card hand in a 60 card deck - hint look at older versions of Legacy and Vintage Storm decks and you'll usually see ~11 lands because it's the point of diminishing returns per additional land. If you want to consistently cast Cabal Therapy, Putrid Imp, Firestorm and Faithless Looting (sans LED) then 8 gold lands are not enough. You also really need to think about increasing the chances of having 2 lands just for hard casting Golgari Thug or 3 lands for flashing back Faithless Looting.

You never, ever need a dedicated target for Dread Return, there's a lot of value in Golgari Thug for recurring a Narcomoeba off a Therapy sac, Ichorid for generating Zombie Tokens, Putrid Imp for discarding the rest of your hand etc. to the point where you always have something incredibly useful, if not immediately devastating, to get value out of Dread Return.

More than 3 ichorid is unnecessary, the 4th is only really for Tormod's Crypt decks and even then you're probably better off with an Ashen Ghoul for diversity vs Surgical Extraction. MD dread returns doesn't really serve a purpose, that's just one less land or business spell you could've raped them with before Surgical is a factor.

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This!

@Unmask-Topic (sublime love): Isn't this card especially good game 3 on the play, when you want to be as proactive as possible while exploding on opponents face after coast is cleared?

[QUOTE=sublime love;771713]I don't see the reason for the "13th" land
I would rather a flame kin, to make the win turn, one turn faster.
Other wise the return, does not seem worth the only target being troll
The sb unmask, is sweet now. Most decks with rip, or cage in sb, will auto keep it in opening hang. No matter how bad the hand. If they don't have it, they lose. Dredge Is very constant when it starts working.
unmask is sweet on the draw.
Debatable on the play, IMO

Sent


For me it comes down to my opening hand and what I want to see in it. Do I wanna see more land or a flame-kin? Fairly simple example yet to the point. How awesome is it to have two land in your opening seven (one being coliseum). Sometimes I need to hardcast a moeba or thug. I remember at scg providence I had to cast thug to flashback therapy just to get him back in the yard. I see the attractiveness of flame-kin yet more lands seem to open the door for insane turn two's. Flame-kin may win that turn but often that extra turn for the other player hasn't been an issue for me.


Sorry for the sloppy format....still new to the source.

To sum it up, dredge is a inconstant deck, it has it's ups and downs like every other deck in the format, it packs quite a punch and it's very fast but you can sit on a table for 3 or more turns in a pro tour doing nothing before getting your a** handed to some random deck, and that's on a favorable matchup.

UNMASK: I still have my doubts about unmask, we don't have that many disposable black cards to exile (ichorid, therapy, PIMP and our dredgers are the only cards I can think of now, but since you guys like DR and it's targets there's probably more) but it's indeed very powerfull and I can see why the card is used in most boards

LANDS: 12 to 14,and nothing less than that, I like using 14, even with the loss of power I like to have more stability on a otherwise incostant deck, the 2 more rainbow lands makes a starting 7 with 2 lands much more possible, and let us cast those anti hate cards postboard a little easier.

DREAD RETURN: I've been on many arguments about this card, many say that it makes the deck more powerfull, and others say it's a dead card that makes you run even more dead cards to make it work, when I first got the deck I used 2 main and 1 on the SB, it worked for a while but I like more business spells and lands, so I cut down to 1 and 1 on the board, today I'm using none in my main deck and just 2 on the board to use it alongside elesh norn or Iona when needed (those grindy matchups, you know), dredge is a combo deck, it must behave like a combo deck, I'd rather have more business than "cute" spells, I respect those who use it, cuss the card forgive many mistakes we might make, and it can end the game on the spot with a flayer or zealot swing, but I see no point to run it over a extra land or breaktrough

Played in a 45-person Legacy tournament today...and switched from Manaless to LED dredge at the last minute because my buddy who is awesome at trading for me the toe I needed.

I played Drew Tunison's list from GP DC

Code:

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12 LANDS
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass

21 CREATURES
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
2 Griselbrand
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

19 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Dread Return

8 OTHER SPELLS
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

SIDEBOARD
1 Darkblast
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Leyline of the Void

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Well, it wasn't pretty. I went 0-3, didn't win a single match. Dredged 5 times in six games, only got two creatures in play. I played the following:

Esper Deathblade

Turn 1 Deathrite Shamans both games, countered both my attempts to go off with Faithless Looting (both cabal therapies didn't get any countermagic)

Esper Stoneblade

Countered any attempts to discard g1 and a Thalia when I couldn't get a second land so I could pay the extra cost. G2 he stuck a RIP turn 3 and I never drew into Nature's Claim + mana

Some GW deck

Thalia g1 and never got an ichorid or narcomoeba via one of my two dredges, Thalia g2 and never drew a second land.

Magic is all about variance, but that was ridiculous. All three opponents breathed sighs of relief every time they beat me, which I guess I should feel good about.

What I don't know is what to target via Cabal Therapy and what to sideboard in (and more importantly out) when facing hate like RIP. Putting Nature's Claim in seems obvious, but I struggle to figure out what to take out without ruining the deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grmpytopdecker

Played in a 45-person Legacy tournament today...and switched from Manaless to LED dredge at the last minute because my buddy who is awesome at trading for me the toe I needed.

I played Drew Tunison's list from GP DC

Code:

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12 LANDS
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass

21 CREATURES
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
2 Griselbrand
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

19 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Dread Return

8 OTHER SPELLS
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

SIDEBOARD
1 Darkblast
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Leyline of the Void

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Well, it wasn't pretty. I went 0-3, didn't win a single match. Dredged 5 times in six games, only got two creatures in play. I played the following:

Esper Deathblade

Turn 1 Deathrite Shamans both games, countered both my attempts to go off with Faithless Looting (both cabal therapies didn't get any countermagic)

Esper Stoneblade

Countered any attempts to discard g1 and a Thalia when I couldn't get a second land so I could pay the extra cost. G2 he stuck a RIP turn 3 and I never drew into Nature's Claim + mana

Some GW deck

Thalia g1 and never got an ichorid or narcomoeba via one of my two dredges, Thalia g2 and never drew a second land.

Magic is all about variance, but that was ridiculous. All three opponents breathed sighs of relief every time they beat me, which I guess I should feel good about.

What I don't know is what to target via Cabal Therapy and what to sideboard in (and more importantly out) when facing hate like RIP. Putting Nature's Claim in seems obvious, but I struggle to figure out what to take out without ruining the deck.

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well, that was not good at all my friend...it reminds me of my jund deck, I've put some major cash in it, and went 0-3 on my very first tour using it...

about the cabal therapy, it's really a matter of practice, train each machtup a lot, see recent lists of the most popular decks in your area, and only name cards that can change the pace of the game (combo enablers, counterspells, key creatures) or win on the spot (show and tell, reanimate, infernal tutor, goblin charbelcher) and hate postboard if you are on the blind.
knowing the metagame is the key when using this card.

good luck with the deck mate!

Good to see everyone still rocking Dredge!