[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

I don't agree with this 100%. One is an instant the other enchantment. I'm not sure who exposes their enchantments to get killed or removed just to wait for the card that needs to be removed

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I don't agree with the statement that "Not having 2x Cindervines in your 75 is almost certainly just wrong" but I do believe it's much better than Destructive Revelry. It's not helpful to talk about hypotheticals in this way when we need to consider concrete examples in the current metagame. There are salient examples of where Vines is better than Revelry:

- Threat vs control decks (you could board Revelry vs Miracles if you wanted but it seems considerably worse than Vines overall even if they can potentially use Disenchant / CJ on it.)
- Potential anti-storm card (Disenchant/Revelry not even worth considering here)
- Comes down before problematic hate permanents that make it difficult to cast RG removal spells (B2B, Counterbalance, Blood Moon, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, Choke)
- Card type enchantment has Tarmogoyf-boosting applications

Where are spots where Revelry is actually better?

You need a confluence of so many things
1. It's a matchup where the Pillar effect is insignificant / irrelevant
or
2. Your opponent is playing Enchantment removal AND You get punished for sandbagging vines to use as 1RG sorcery Revelry
or
3. Your opponent still has Needle/Revoker/Spyglass effects after sideboarding
or
4. RG + 1 is significantly worse than just RG
and
5. You don't care about resolving your kill spell before the targeted permanent OR being able to hide Revelry in your hand to surprise the opponent with it at instant speed is relevant

The most obvious example of a matchup where at least some of these things are true is DNT, which is why I think Cindervines is a complement to Grudge rather than a replacement. I think you can afford the SB slots to do this because Cindervines also has anti-control applications. The net effect is that your Stompy matchup should improve (because now you have 2 Grudge + 1-2 Cindervines) plus you get extra coverage vs other decks like Enchantress and Storm, and at no cost to your other matchups because Vines is hopefully as good against Miracles/Grixis as whatever other card was in that slot beforehand

I replaced the single Destructive Revelry with a Cindervines for the short tournament. It was only 3 rounds, which I all won. 2-0 against UB Shadow, 2-1 against D&T, 2-1 against UWR Splinterblade. Cindervines came in against D&T and Splinterblade. In both cases it was good, but did not feel so much better than Revelry. I will try it out some more as your comments have convinced be there is more upside than downside. I like to be able to boost my Goyf in a pinch (targeting itself in dire cases). Thanks for the tips!

Just remember, when it targets self it becomes an illegal target (in yard) and will not ding you for two. :wink:

Anyone see the list that went 5–2 with 2 Tarfire main and 3 Cindervines and 2 Entrancing Melody in the sideboard?

I don’t get Entrancing Melody and I wonder if you really want 4 red blast effects, but I like the rest.

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Originally Posted by now

Anyone see the list that went 5–2 with 2 Tarfire main and 3 Cindervines and 2 Entrancing Melody in the sideboard?

I don’t get Entrancing Melody and I wonder if you really want 4 red blast effects, but I like the rest.

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You can get a Marit Lage with it. Why would they make the token during their own turn escapes me though. Any other target seems like way too much mana.

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Originally Posted by Turboninja

You can get a Marit Lage with it. Why would they make the token during their own turn escapes me though. Any other target seems like way too much mana.

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You can also snag Death's Shadow.

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Originally Posted by Turboninja

You can get a Marit Lage with it. Why would they make the token during their own turn escapes me though. Any other target seems like way too much mana.

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DD always makes Marit on their own turn versus a typical wasteland deck and on endstep versus a typical Jace deck.

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Originally Posted by now

Anyone see the list that went 5–2 with 2 Tarfire main and 3 Cindervines and 2 Entrancing Melody in the sideboard?

I don’t get Entrancing Melody and I wonder if you really want 4 red blast effects, but I like the rest.

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This is legacy man...there's gotta be better cards than Entrancing Melody to steal a creature on your side.

Especially when you want to steal something like Emrakul, griselbrand, or others

Entrancing Melody only steals tokens.

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

This is legacy man...there's gotta be better cards than Entrancing Melody to steal a creature on your side.

Especially when you want to steal something like Emrakul, griselbrand, or others

Entrancing Melody only steals tokens.

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Gilded Drake, it's your time to shine! :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Fox

Gilded Drake, it's your time to shine! :laugh:

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I know...i was just being snarky

It must be for Marit Lage because if you're stealing any creature that costs 1 or more it's basically a worse Threads (I don't expect you will bring this expecting to steal a creature with CMC 3 or more)

I think you can probably use Wasteland to force them to make Lage in some situations where you have UU for Melody but it seems both difficult to use for this purpose AND an extremely narrow use of 2 sideboard slots

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

It must be for Marit Lage because if you're stealing any creature that costs 1 or more it's basically a worse Threads (I don't expect you will bring this expecting to steal a creature with CMC 3 or more)

I think you can probably use Wasteland to force them to make Lage in some situations where you have UU for Melody but it seems both difficult to use for this purpose AND an extremely narrow use of 2 sideboard slots

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If that is the case, that is a poor inclusion because this deck has wastelands and stifles

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

If that is the case, that is a poor inclusion because this deck has wastelands and stifles

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Depths is a seriously unfavoured matchup for this deck
Stifle means you have a better matchup compared to e.g. Grixis Delver with no Stifle but it's still definitely not something you want to play against
Its easy for them to combo off without playing any spell so all your Dazes, FoW etc are irrelevant, and you can't deal with on-board Marit Lage at all

Ark4n11 has put up at least one 5-0 with this list recently. The sideboard Melodies being for Marit Late specifically. I just love me some Winter Orb.

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Pteramander
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

1 Forked Bolt
1 Winter Orb

2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Island

SIDEBOARD
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Cindervines
1 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Entrancing Melody
1 Rough//Tumble
1 Forked Bolt
1 Sylvan Library

From what I've seen on stream, the Pteramanders are decent, and Goose seems reasonable in the meta right now.

Do you really want a UU sorcery speed answer to Marit Lage when they can often force an EOT activation in a world where Vapor Snag exists?

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Originally Posted by eldub

Do you really want a UU sorcery speed answer to Marit Lage when they can often force an EOT activation in a world where Vapor Snag exists?

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Maybe? I mean, I don't think it's definitely a better choice, but if you can chump block and steal it, it's obviously pretty good.

In reality, you are likely right, since Snag can be brought in vs something like Angler and gets into the yard "easier" for 'Mander purposes.

Has anybody contemplated a Noble + Pteramander variant? Noble seems to provide good support to Pteramander by exalting an early flier and providing early mana for tempo plays and a quicker adapt. Some sort of beatdown variant to RUG with less emphasis on the disruption and more on board development that resembles the 8 dork Bant decks but with better standalone threats, more disruption, and Bolts.

Here's what I'm thinking about:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Pteramander
4 True-Name Nemesis

All evasive threats that benefit from exalted. Ptera is also a mana sink and we maximize our chances of enabling T2 TNN.

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain

A bunch of cantrips to make sure we flip Delver, fill our GY for Ptera, and use all of our mana to go through our deck faster.

2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Wasteland

Basic Delver disruption suite that capitalizes on cheap threats and fast mana.

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Flex slots for additional removal/disruption

Basic cheap removal suite and reach for our evasive threats.

8 Blue Fetch
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Island

As few lands as possible to make our first 2 land drops.

That way there is no messing around with holding mana for counters and we get to develop our board and have an insurmountable position by T4-5.

As a quick follow up to my last post I did test the deck and it went poorly. Pteramander is slow, vulnerable, and can be really difficult to adapt. He is worse than Mandrills and Angler but has some nice perks such as flying over TNN and pitching to FoW. Pteramander is fine as a 1-2of if you play Mongoose.

On a different note, check out the new Hexdrinker and Wrenn and Six. There are finally some good cards to play RG in legacy! Hexdrinker seems like a strict upgrade to Pteramander. Wrenn basically enables recurring Wastelands, recurring removal, card advantage and a great card type to grind control decks (especially Strix control). Wrenn looks easy enough to protect against Miracles and the emblem wins the game.

Wren looks really strong. Not so sure about the level up guy. You have to spend several mana in sorcery speed to make it anymore than a 1/1.

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Originally Posted by JackaBo

Wren looks really strong. Not so sure about the level up guy. You have to spend several mana in sorcery speed to make it anymore than a 1/1.

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Hexdrinker starts at 2/1