[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

WHat's the reasoning behind cutting Mogg Fanatics in the first place? Their main uses were to self-sacrifice against Bridges, chump block against huge fatties and still ping for 1, and shoot Birds/Lackeys/Confidants/other x/1's. I didn't think gunning down x/2's on the defensive were a main thing.

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Honestly in certain metas I could definitely see keeping Fanatics in the MD. He is really good against Survival decks, Mirror, Elves, Ichorid, and a whole bunch of randomness. He's just not amazing against some of the DTB's out there. Since almost every Zoo list has no 2 toughness creatures the rules change to combat damage does not really affect Fanatic. Many of the 2 toughness creatures out there are hatebears or Lords. You shouldn't have too much trouble against those decks with or without Fanatic.

I'd still play Fanatic if I wasn't so high off of War Marshall + Goblin Chieftain.

Has anyone considered using goblin grappler in the 1 mana slot? It seems similar to intimidator initiate but less mana-hungry.

What about Skirk Prospector in a mana-minimum list to shore up the missing 1 drop? With a Warchief/Frogtosser, a War Marshal becomes a Rite of Flames giving you more mana to go stupid with your hand. I've gotten quite a few "Oops, I win" plays as early as turn 3 with that combo.

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Originally Posted by Manhattan

I find that with the death of Fanatic this deck is lacking in turn 1 plays (only vial and lackey left). It also loses tremendous edge against Ichorid.
Turn 2 Piledriver, Turn 3 Warchief swing for 5 just isn't going to be fast enough, meaning you'll pretty much be forced to mull for onedropp, not really atractive from my point of view.

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Stingscourger partially solves the problem. Bouncing a Moeba/Token blocking for a turn and removing bridges usually does the work.

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

Stingscourger partially solves the problem. Bouncing a Moeba/Token blocking for a turn and removing bridges usually does the work.

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The damage to the Ichorid-matchup was a sidenote. The primary focus of my post was that any Goblin-start without an onedropp is going to have troubles getting in for lethal before the controlplayers can set themselves up (I am referring to control in the context of Mike Flores' principle of "who's the beatdown?"). While a onedropp doesn't guarantee a good hand, it curves out hands more smoothly.
Fanatic was the essential onedropp 9-12 for most of this decks history. However he has recently suffered heavy damage from Tarmogoyf and now is facing down a crippling rules change. If it weren't for Ichorid I'd dismiss him outright.

I don't see the rules change hurting Fanatic that much. I can't recall facing very many troublesome creatures with 2 toughness. Fanatic still kills anything with 1 toughness, and it still fails to kill anything with more than 2 toughness. Unless people were attacking with 4 fanatics into a Tarmogoyf and sacrificing all of with damage on the stack pre-m2010, the rules don't make that much of a difference. The real killer of fanatic remains to be Tarmogoyf.

if fanatic isn't going to be super helpful in the meta why not just opt his spot in a build for rite of flame. certainly speeds up the turn clock for droping heavier cost goblins. plus if the land/warchief just isn't there a second one could power that crucially needed seige gang or ringleader.

Rite of Flame is a terrible idea. It's a one shot boost of one red mana in a deck that doesn't have any single bombs worthy of the extra boost that don't cost exactly one in the first place. I'd rather run Chrome Mox or just more land.

Seriously, though? It's not automatically the end of the world if you don't nail a 1-drop on the play. It's pretty bad on the draw, but two Gemstone Caverns increases your chances here.

Skirk Prospector isn't a great idea because he sacrifices your threats, which you want as many of in play as possible, to get generally equal or less red mana than you spent to play them in the first place.

Goblin Grappler is pretty weak too. The only plus side of him is that he's fantastic against Birds of Paradise and Dark Confidant, and that he can sneak a Piledriver through. But you aren't really in fantastic shape when your turn one play is Land, Grappler, go.

Of everything suggested, Fanatic's still the best other one drop, and if everyone in the world starts playing toughness-1 guys, thinking it's a free world to do so now that Mogg Fanatic is dead, then sticking a couple back in a list isn't necessarily a terrible idea. Since M10, I've seen all kinds 1-toughness guys crawling out of the woodworks, including Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Welder, Ball Lightning, Llanowar/Fyndhorn Elves, Voidmage Prodigy, etc. And Fanatic kills Noble Hierarch and Birds of Paradise and Confidant and so forth. So it's possible that at some point Fanatic will come back to keep all that somewhat in check. Thing is, though, if all these 1-drops come into prominence, you've still got Gempalm Incinerator and Pyrokinesis in board to handle things.

The other alternative, IMO, is just not to run bad 1-drops to replace Fanatic.

no offence tacosnape but i fail to see how a lot of the 1/1s your thinking of were ever gone to begin with. i will agree with welder being gone though i haven't seen him in a legacy deck in a long time. in addition ball lighting/groundbreaker/blistering firecat.

just my thoughts but a maindeck sharpshooter and 4 gem palms are enough to deal with them without designating more deck space to the problem of 1/1s

ive been playtesting this build. its mono-red

15 Mountains
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Mogg Fanatic
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Kiki-Jiki Mirror Breaker

Sideboard:
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Blood Moon
3 Pyroblast
2 Shattering Spree
2 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Stingscourger

Mogg Fanatic, although not as good as it used to be is still good. It could still plow the way for Goblin Lackey on turn 2. It can get rid of Bridge from Below as well as little pesky X/1 utility creatures.

Goblin Sharpshooter is there just incase although for the most part, it will be sided.

Goblin Cheiftain is there as Warchief 5-6, as well as Engineered Plague nerfer.

Although this build has less control elements compared to its R/B counterparts, it is geared to be faster and more consistent

any comments yall want to add, please feel free to do so. Im pretty sure the sideboard needs a little facelift

Skirk Prospecter works better as a combo with Sharpshoot than any other suggestion. He also helps beat Ichorid much better than Fanatic alone would. Lastly, Turn 2 Warchief w/o Lackey. Also combos with Mogg War Marshal to generate RRR from 1R invested.

The former two are the most important, while the latter two are just situational. I'd sooner play Prospector in a vacuum than Fanatic.

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

any comments yall want to add, please feel free to do so. Im pretty sure the sideboard needs a little facelift

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Please, don't run the Kiki-jiki in the maindeck. The guy is not impressive, and you play just 22 lands, so you better have a smooth curve.
The Sharpshooter MD does not make much sense. You say that you often side it out, so why don't you just play Stingscourger maindeck and Sharpshooter SB? Seems like a good amount of decks are playing creatures, so Sting is often more relevant as tutorable way of nerfing Dreadnought, Tombstalker, or even Goyf or a goblin stolen with Shackles (tech!).

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Originally Posted by Shanghi Knights

if fanatic isn't going to be super helpful in the meta why not just opt his spot in a build for rite of flame. certainly speeds up the turn clock for droping heavier cost goblins. plus if the land/warchief just isn't there a second one could power that crucially needed seige gang or ringleader.

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I prefer Tarfire.

If you still want to include a third 1-drop in Goblins there is alot of different options now since Fanatic isn't a no-brainer (still very strong though as mentioned). These are the cards I think you can choose from:

Frenzied Goblin - Similar to Goblin Grappler but requires more mana (Mountains to be precise). If the mana is there he can help connecting with either Lackey or Piledriver.

Goblin Grappler - See above.

Goblin Sledder - I am sure this has been discussed many times before but I think this could have potential especially now when Mogg War Marshal is being used. The ability to save your Warchief, Piledriver, Lackey or Siege-Gang Commander should be useful now and then.

Mogg Fanatic - Everyone knows what Fanatic does. Still a very good one drop.

Mudbutton Clanger - Could become big if you get him out early.

Skirk Prospector - It does have synergy with War Marshal but sacrificing Goblins to play more Goblins doesn't seem to lead you anywhere.

Scuzzback Scraper - Wither isn't bad. The counter might help Incinerators kill of bigger creatures (Goyf mostly).

Tarfire - Tarfire isn't bad but I would argue that since it's not a creature, it just doesn't deserve a slot. The biggest reason to run a third one drop imo is to get Goblins out asap to make your Piledrivers and/or Incinerators useful. Perhaps i'm wrong though.

Tattermunge Maniac - 2/1 for 1 mana is never bad but his drawback will cause trouble when you want to keep as many of your Goblins alive.

If running Rb version there is also these cards to consider:

Boggart Birth Rite - Same thing as with Tarfire, it's not a creature. And probably less useful then Tarfire overall.

Festering Goblin - This little fellow is not to be dismissed. Even with a 1/2 on the other side your opponent will think twice before blocking him. Small synergy with Goblin Sledder (perhaps a 2/2 split could be nice?) and Siege-Gang.

Knucklebone Witch - I'm not sure but the synergy with War Marshal and Siege-Gang Commander could potentially make this guy a threat if played early. Also works nicely with Goblin Sledder (perhaps a 2/2 split could work with these aswell?).

Now, what is your favorite(s)? =)

Fanatic's the only playable card on that list, and it's questionable.

I admit to testing Tarfire in my desperation for 1-drops and it was occasionally okay, enough to where I'd probably rank it second on that list, but blegh. It's Shock. Don't do it.

I'd only play Fanatic or Goblin Vandal (in heavy artifact metas).
Some number of Caverns are better than both.

I think Goblin Sledder might be more useful then you think. Perhaps not as a 4-of since you only need one out but I think 2 is a good number. Making your important Goblins harder to kill and having synergy with War Marshal + Stingscourger (Echo) I think it can do good.

I'm still not sure if I like Frenzied Goblin and/or Goblin Grappler. Most of the times they will probably be just 1/1. But sometimes they might just let your Lackey or 5-7-9/2 Piledriver connect and then they will be gamebreaking.

Mudbutton Clanger, while it does seem to suck, it could be nice in the Rb version running fetches. I don't think i'm wrong when I say the guy could become a 3/3 fairly easy while also serving as a kinda crappy (but mana free) card quality engine together with fetches.

+1/+1 is just untill end of turn.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

+1/+1 is just untill end of turn.

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I am aware of that, but using the ability to your advantage on War Marshal is only for the better (unless you where going to pay the Echo cost next upkeep ofcourse which I hardly never do).

What I mean is the ability can make your Warchief (for example) harder to Bolt or whatever. Or just to pick a situation: Your opponent has a 2/x on the board and you can attack with Goblin + Sledder + Piledriver. Normally you would be afraid to attack and perhaps wait to save your Piledriver for when it becomes bigger but with Sledder's ability you get the option of losing a 1/1 instead of Piledriver while playing more aggressively, something Goblins seldom can do.

This was just a scenario, i'm sure there's plenty of more use to Sledder's ability.

Would the sacrifice goblin (Either Sledder or Skirk Prospector) + Kiki + Lightning Crafter be considered a win-more combo in a Goblin deck?

It is an infinite combo if there is no interruptions.