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Sylvan Library and card draw in general are not good for burn. Burn wants to kill the opponent in 3-4 turns. It doesn't have time to invest a card and two mana into a spell that does no direct damage and that you have to wait a turn to get extra cards. You need to stick with direct damage spells. Library is for mid-range decks.
Hi,
I was wondering if Skullcrack has any merit in Burn. I was thinking about playing it over Flame Rift. It's trading 1 more dmg to the opponnent against 4dmg to you, instant speed and life gain negation. Is it worth it?
Regards,
Matthias
It might be worth the shot against Batterskull or Wurmcoil Engine. Preventing lifelink from one attack may grant you a win in that turn or your following turn...Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias
Or as a response to Swords to Plowshares on one of his own creatures, however a buit far fetched. You would need it to be a 4-off. Maybe as a sideboard card. Burn also runs Sulfuric Vortex.
Skullcrack is not good in Legacy Burn. In other formats (Modern, Standard), I think it can be quite good in Burn/RDW decks, but in Legacy three damage for two mana is really inefficient. If you are worried about opponents gaining life, play more Sulfuric Vortex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias
I would almost always prefer to have Sulfuric Vortex on the field, but it could have some merit. I don't think it has any application in the mainboard thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by Matthias
Skull Crack is super strong! It won so many games against a Griselbrand, Jitte and other life gain cards!
First time poster, long time Burn player. I heard about The Source from Greg Mitchell during his Deck Tech at SCG Open Atlanta. Greg spoke quite highly of this forum, so I thought that this may be a good place to get some feedback on a deck I've been tinkering with for a little while now. If this should be its own thread or I missed something already discussed, please let me know. With out further ado here is my list:
Boros Burn:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
5 Mountain
3 Plateau
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Boros Charm
4 Skullcrack
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 4 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Searing Blaze
SB: 4 Disenchant
Since Boros Charm was spoiled I've been considering splashing white. An instant speed Flame Rift is great, but it also has some other utility that I've come to realize through testing. First off, the double strike option is helpful on a creature when your opponent has a Leyline of Sanctity up. Furthermore, making your lands indestructible saves you from a wasteland if your really need the mana and are willing to pitch a Charm for it. These situations are rare but the options are still nice to have. Also, Boros Charm increases the instants in the deck, which allows you to be more responsive. For example, with two lands down and a Red Elemental Blast and Boros Charm in hand, we have the option to counter our opponent's Counterbalance or Jace while still having the opportunity to hit them for four to the dome if they don't play a dreaded blue spell during their turn.
Another new face to burn is Skullcrack. This card is taking the place of Sulfuric Vortex at the moment. With Jitte and Batterskull abound, I feel you need a way of dealing with life gain main deck, so it's either one or the other. I need to test Skullcrack a bit more but I feel the increased instants help with the High Tide and Dream halls/Omni-Tell match-ups. Also Skullcrack opens up the flood gates against Energy field. Maybe I've played against to many U/W control decks, but not having an answer to Rest in Peace/Energy Field in an already unfavourable match up, stings. Vortex is better against life gain but I'm hoping Skullcrack can buy me the extra turn I need, while stilll being instant speed damage when life gain is irrelevant.
Concerning creatures, I personally feel Goblin Guide and Hellspark Elemental are your best choices, at least in the way I approach playing burn. It's fairly unanimous that Guide is here to stay, but there are several reasons I like Hellspark over the other top creatures in many burn lists. Mainly, Hellspark is still usable after being discarded and his unearth ability allows you to play through counter magic. I feel discard and counter magic are some of the most frustrating things to play against when piloting burn, and Hellspark allows you to still get some damage in. Concerning the other popular choices, I'm quite sympathetic to James Heslip's opinions on Grim Lavamancer and the concept of "guaranteed damage". You can read his burn article on MTG Salvation (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/1317-squ...et-legacy.html). This idea of "guaranteed damage" is also why I feel Steppe Lynx doesn't make the cut.
Finally I'd like to discuss the sideboard. I feel this is the strongest argument for splashing white. Disenchant is our answer to Leyline of Sanctity. Leyline is such a headache to play against that I feel it needs to be addressed, especially if it pops up in a U/W control list. Moving onto Rest in Peace, this is not only one of the best graveyard hate cards around, but it also shrinks Goyfs, shuts down Deathrite Shamans, and removes any flashback cards like Lingering Souls or Cabal Therapy. Since most of these cards are quite popular in the current meta-game I feel Rest in Peace is a powerful card in any list that can play it.
I need to test this build a little more, but I'm fairly sold on the idea of splashing white. Any criticisms or suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Skullcrack is an excellent spell in burn IMO.
Sure the mana-to-damage ratio isn't great, but its secondary effect is just insane at instant speed.
What people don't realize is that Skullcrack and Sulfuric Vortex don't have to compete for space in your 75. You can run both easily and not skip a beat. Skullcrack can easily take the slot of Keldon Marauders.
For reference, here is a list that won 3rd place at a local 50 player event just this past Sunday:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Vexing Devil
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
3 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Lava Spike
2 Skullcrack
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
9 Mountain
Sideboard:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Smash to Smithereens
Personally, I would've dropped Vexing Devil for extra burn, but that's just me.
The deck's only loss in the swiss is against a Jund deck who had discard up the wazoo. She (yes, the pilot is female) kicked the crap out of 2 Esper Stoneblade Decks, 1 Jund deck, 1 Sneak Show deck in the Swiss, and a Punishing Maverick deck in the Top 8 Quarterfinals.
In all games that Life-gain became an issue, the 2 Skullcrack played vital roles.
I won a 25 people Legacy tournament last Saturday. I have been playing a more Slight version but since the Boros-thread is dead, I will post my list here.
Played against: Jund 2-1, SpringTide 2-0, TES 2-0, Goblins 2-1 and one ID
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goblin Guide
4 Vexing Devil
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Fireblast
3 Magma Jet
3 Lightning Helix
1 Thunderous Wrath
4 Path to Exile
2 Plateau
3 Plains
6 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
SB:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Disenchant
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Shattering Spree
I am very satisfied with this list, it is more versatile than pure Burn. Especially Lavamancer is pretty good right now.
My opinion on Skullcrack: Not worth running. Can be compared to Flames of the Blood Hand.
You can't compare the two spells actually:Quote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
1.) Flames of the Blood Hand is a 3cmc spell, Skullcrack is 2cmc. That 1 mana difference in cmc is HUGE for a deck running a low curve
2.) Flames of the Blood Hand, while it also stops life gain, does not make other spells unpreventable. Skullcrack makes ALL damage unpreventable for the current turn, which is relevant against cards like Energy Field, Solitary Confinement and Glacial Chasm.
Skullcrack fits well into the curve of a mono-R burn deck - much better than Flames of the Blood Hand. And with the meta being dominated by fair decks who pack plenty of creature removal, traditional Burn creatures are becoming less and less powerful.
Personally, in a Jund/Junk/BUG meta, I would run only Goblin Guide and Grim Lavamancer as my creatures, and dedicate the rest of the space for Burn spells and Sulfuric Vortex, and still have space left over for 2, maybe 3 copies of Skullcrack.
I'm thinking about building a creature-less list. I know that both goblin guide and grim lavamancer sometimes do 4+ damage, but they both are bad topdecks and in today's meta of fair decks they will often die to removals. I don't even consider other creatures because guide and mancer are the only worth running in my opinion... but i'm trying to cut them because i want to have all spells that deal "guaranteed damage" and minimize bad topdecks. Another reason to cut creatures is that two of most played cards that give us problems, deathrite shaman and scavenging ooze, both require to remove a creature from a graveyard to gain life: so if we don't run any creature we can just ignore them.
I thought about two lists, one mono red and one with splashes. Here is the monored one:
-4 lightning bolt
-4 chain lightning
-4 rift bolt
-4 lava spike
-3 shard volley
-4 searing blaze
-4 skullcrack
-4 price of progress
-4 flame rift
-4 fireblast
-8 fetches
-12 mountains
-1 barbarian ring
I think these are the best red burn spells available at the moment.
With skullcrack and searing blaze main deck we have the possibility to fight batterskull either by stopping life gain or by killing stoneforge mystic before she drops batterskull.
Fetches are here mainly to support searing blaze and barbarian ring. 21 lands are the right number with fireblast and shard volley in the deck... we always want to see three lands. Maybe it is still possible to cut the barbarian ring and add the 4th shard volley.
I chose not to run sulfuric vortex main deck because i want to have a low mana curve and be as fast as possible,but notice that 21 lands allow us to run in sideboard vortex, ensnaring bridge or sweepers without any problem.
Here is the list with splashes. It is stronger than the previous because it replaces the two worst spells (shard volley and skullcrack) with better ones.
-4 chain lightning
-4 lightning bolt
-4 lava spike
-4 rift bolt
-4 bump in the night
-4 flame rift
-4 searing blaze
-4 price of progress
-4 fireblast
-4 boros charm
-12 fetches
-2 plateau
-2 badlands
-4 mountain
I tested it and it is really strong, but obviously wasteland is always waiting for us.
Lands go down from 21 to 20 because there are no more shard volleys, replaced by bump in the night that does the same thing without sacrificing a land(and also has flashback,but we'll never use it); boros charm replaces skullcrack, but it might replace searing blaze instead if you want to have a main deck answe to lifegain apart from killing the equipped creatures.The problem with cutting searing blaze is that then there are only 12 spells in the deck that can target creatures, so i think is better with the blaze main also because , as i said before, scavenging ooze and deathrite shaman can be totally ignored and mystic can be killed with searing blaze.
playing black and white splashes allow us to have in sideboard discard spells against combo and disenchant against artifacts/enchantments.
Any opinion ?
I think it is an interesting idea for sure, although I have a couple concerns. I believe goblin guide is worth a 4 of just for the fact that a turn 1 goblin guide can mean winning on the 4th turn or not. I can see the reason for not including Grim Lavamancer but if your meta is very creature heavy, it can be useful but I can see it being taken out completely. I like the idea of running fetches, if only for Barbarian ring and Searing Blaze because it increases our damage in the long run. I would almost suggest running a 2nd Barbarian ring and lowering the land numbers. If we are not running any 3 cost spells like Sulfuric Vortex, I would lower the land count to 18-19 (including 2 Barbarian Ring). As much as I would love to splash and I always think about it, I just find it really scary knowing you could easily just lose to a Wasteland. I think having to know when to Fireblast is hard enough on top of including Shard Volley, maybe it is just my deck though because I run 3 Sulfuric Vortex and worry about drawing them when I'm at 4 mountains and want to Fireblast. I think Boros Charm is definitely a cool idea but I don't know if it is worth it yet to include Plateau and risk being beat by Wasteland to run it just yet. Searing Blaze can be an issue with 8 fetches as well, I would suggest going to 12 to support 4 mainboard. I prefer Sulfuric Vortex over Skullcrack a lot and I just wouldn't run a 2 for 3 unless it did something extremely good for us, and maybe that is where we can have the thought of maybe running Magma Jet to make our draws better. It is difficult to find enough spells in my opinion that seem great for our strategy. I like Goblin Guide over all creatures and I just don't see a reason not to include him, even if he can make draws awkward late in the game. I find he is very annoying to a lot of players who just don't have a great amount of removal mainboard. To contribute though, I think I could see running something like this with no creatures:Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoCop 90
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
3 Shrapnel Blast
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Flame Rift
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Ankh of Mishra
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ensnaring Bridge
20 Mountain
Maybe I am just crazy though and want to make Shrapnel Blast work too much, I would only run Ankh of Mishra though if I had no fetches, and Ensnaring Bridge could just not be included for another Sensei's Divining Top, or maybe making our next draws better just isn't good in a very well drawing deck anyway.
Seems like something worth testing. How much playtesting have you done with that build?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyle Hopkins
I'm under the opinion that Grim Lavamancer is better than Hellspark Elemental, however. GLM is a beating when left unchecked, and with the amount of fetches you run, you can easily support it. Hellspark, though good against discard, is terrible against Deathrite Shaman, which pretty much every black/green deck runs.
went 5-1-1 on yesterday's Legacy Championship on GP London. I guess its pretty optimal right now.
10x Mountain
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Wooded Foothills
4x Arid Mesa
4x Goblin Guide
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Flame Rift
4x Price of Progress
4x Fireblast
2x Sulfuric Vortex
2x Skullcrack
SIDE
4x Mindbreak Trap
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Smash to Smithereens
2x Tormod's Crypt
I will replace two Mountains for two more fetches. Otherwise I went good for me. Only lost to Sneak and Show (guy dropped so gave me the win) and Thresh when I got flooded both games. Smashed 2:0 Stoneblade, Thresh, Death and Taxes and some rogue
Played a 34 man local legacy tournament yesterday, went 4-2 and placed 9th overall.
My List:
Main:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
3 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Ensnaring Bridge
10 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothill
Sideboard:
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle
1 Reroute
1 Blood Moon
1 Grafdigger's Cage
Round 1: Some Artifact Milling Brew (Grinding Station) 2-1
Lost Game 1: Mulligan to 6 and not enough damage in time to beat out his combo.
Won Game 2: Quickly burned him out (turn 4).
Won Game 3: Turn 1 Pithing Needle part of his win condition, he fumbles and I burn him out.
Round 2: U/W Stoneforge 0-2
Lost Game 1: He had the nuts and turn 2 Mystic into Batterskull beats, could not come back, mulligan'd to 6 this game as well.
Lost Game 2: Grindy match, mulligan'd to 6 again, lost to not drawing my hate for his Jace ultimate to flip my deck.
Round 3: Reanimator 0-2
Lost Game 1: Turn 2 Griselbrand.
Lost Game 2: Turn 2 Griselbrand, didn't draw my graveyard hate, mulligan to 6.
Round 4: U/W Stoneforge 2-0
Won Game 1: Had all the bolts in the world to stop him from equipping anything, burned him out.
Won Game 2: Basically the same as game 1, had the perfect 7 for stopping his deck to start, sculpted the game well.
Round 5: 2-0
Opponent dropped from the tournament.
Round 6: Scapewish 2-1
Lost Game 1: Had him at 1, he drew into Scapeshift and went off, if I hadn't have drawn a rift bolt, over anything else, I would have won.
Won Game 2: Ensnaring Bridge stopped his Huntmasters from doing anything, had the Fireblast to finish him before he could go off next turn.
Won Game 3: He turn 1 tops, I turn 1 Pithing Needle naming Top, I turn 3 Blood Moon and slowly burn him out before he can do anything, thanks to a Sulfuric Vortex and more.
I ended up 9th, because of my opponents not winning, but overall the deck performed pretty well. Rift Bolt past turn 3, and Flame Rift in general, always feel lackluster to me. The MVPs of my deck would have to be Ensnaring Bridge, Pithing Needle, and Sulfuric Vortex, mostly after sideboard. Everything else performed well, had their place, I really enjoy'd my one of Ensnaring Bridge main but it just probably happened to work out, since I never really faced any Storm decks that I expected to face, hence the 4 Mindbreak Trap. I am still new to the deck, but overall I think it is still a force to be reckoned with and plan to keep making changes in places I feel are open for change.
skullcrack works pretty well in burn, just always be sure to leave 2 extra mana on your opp's turn, and if he does not use life gain, you can instead use 2 LB's or a PoP (if possible) and save skullcrack for later. and yes, you can run sulfuric vortex even with skullcrack
my more-than-1 drop spells:
3 skullcrack
3 PoP
3 flame rift
3 Fireblast, though i might +1 fireblast and just use 2 sulfuric instead of 3
creatures are only 4 Goblin guide and 3 grim lavamancer
So last weekend provided us two both good and different decklists. One from the SCG Open (The same person also Top 16d the Open the weekend before it as well) as well as one from the Jupiter Games NELC:
From the Open:
Creatures (8)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
Lands (20)
8 Mountain
3 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills
Spells (32)
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
Sideboard
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Searing Blaze
And from the NELC:
Main Deck:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Flame Rift
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Magma Jet
4 Lava Spike
2 Fireblast
2 Skullcrack
4 Rift Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
3 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Arid Mesa
8 Mountain
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Blood Moon
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Vexing Shusher
4 Red Elemental Blast
From the NELC List, I like the idea of cutting down Fireblasts. I don't think two is the right number (I lean towards 3, personally) but that gives you more room to have other burn spells or an extra Vortex. I do find it interesting that the SCG Open list doesn't run Magma Jet. I've been playing without it, and having mediocre results. It's not all that amazing right now, but the scry 2 is still fairly relevant.
Looking for some feedback here. I used to run 3x Hellspark Elemental, but Hellspark is terrible against any deck with DRS, which is a lot of them. Thoughts on what can fit in the 2-cmc slot? I like Skullcrack, but have yet to test it out. How useful has the life-gain prevention been?
On a side-note, You Make The Card 4 is here... Let's finally make a playable Red 2-drop creature that can compete with Bob, Mystic, Goyf, and Tiago! Use hash-tag #ymtc on Twitter, voting begins here: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...ly/feature/238
The deck could use this.
Edit: Additionally, how useful are Ensnaring Bridge and Mindbreak Trap? I can see that the Bridge is great against Reanimator and Show and Tell, but how relevant is the Trap? Is Storm still that popular? Is it useful against 'Tin-fin'?
Also, I've always thought that Vexing Shusher was superior to Krosan Grip against Counter-top, but have heard some advocating a Green splash for Grip because Shusher dies to removal, etc; thoughts?
In my quest for insanity, I've been making Primers on here for decks I've played, put together, etc in my time in Legacy over the past year and a half, and I have come across this deck now after doing previous primers for other decks, would anyone object to me making a primer for burn with my style of primers? I have the high tide primer here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25666 if you want a reference to see how I do them. ^.^
I would base the Primer off of results with the deck placing at the top 16, or top 32 if there's not enough decklists, at larger scale events like the Open series, or events from The council that are around 100+ players where burn finished at the higher tables, then list card choices based off those lists, note what is ran more & less traditionally, etc etc etc.
-edit- for now, working on Reanimator Primer based on demand of relpy's, will re-address Burn in a couple days from this post, as each primer consumes the better part of a couple days. -edit-
I've read all of your recent primers on this site, and I have to say that they are outstanding. I really appreciate your hard work. The burn thread could really use an update, so I encourage you to do it.