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I m reading your thoughts on the maindeck changes. Very interesting discussion going on here.
If we are looking fot more consistency I have a new tech which may lead to some sick moves:
Why aren't we chain multiple Burning-Tree Emissaries into Grapeshot. 2 Emissaries allow storm 3 and are still viable as blockers/attackers and food for CabalTherapies.
But I m not sure if we want to play the full set main. Testing will tell.
This is the kind of condescendence we cannot use on a forum like this. This holds back any innovation. All innovation looks weird at first, not just mine. Remember when Bryant said the Probe was bad because it didn't do anything? He wasn't wrong in his remark, but he was proven wrong by the performance of the card. At least, many feel that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by vercadium
We are focussing more on duals here. You have to admit that with 12-13 lands, it's hard to consisently get to three lands, and Tropical demands we do that very thing if we want to be able to cast all our spells from our lands. I was looking into a way to cast all our spells from just two lands.
ANT has this setup: Tropical + Badlands. Unfortunately this isn't an option for us, because we usually need initial B and R to go off. Taking this into consideration, and the fact that I want to be able to cast Decay from two lands as well means my only option is Sea + Taiga. I don't like it either, but Bayou + Volcanic doesn't cast Decay.
If you don't like my idea, fine. Others have already mentioned they don't believe in it. I will try it when I get the chance, simply because I think we are moving the mana base into an ANTish direction, only with two lands less. That feels bad, and therefore it's worth looking into solutions.
My apologies if what I said was condescending towards you; I honestly didn't intend my frankness to be taken as such. The reason I am so blunt regarding Taiga is that I believe it makes very little sense compared to Bayou, which could at least be argued, even if it's incorrect when compared to Tropical Island. Normally, I would start off with well thought out reasoning, but I am also entitled to outright dismiss something when I believe it holds no merit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
I think your logic regarding Taiga is flawed and I'll try to explain why I believe this is the case below. This does not stifle innovation and I welcome any new arguments or perspectives you have around it.
We have more black cards than red. The black and blue cards are the ones that more often need cast over multiple turns and on our 1st turn (discard/cantrips), so our re-usable mana sources are more effective in that colour. Moreover, our 9 red cards that are in the deck (4 Rite of Flame, 4 Burning Wish, 1 Empty the Warrens) are often cast only on the turn we're "going off", which makes breaking a petal for that source much more plausible, than say, having to break one for Duress because we have Volcanic Island + Taiga in play.
Here's the colour options we have with 2 lands, which is only relevant when we don't have Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal or Gemstone Mine:
Taiga + Underground Sea = RGUB = 4 different colour sources with 2 lands.
Bayou + Underground Sea = BGU = 3 different colour sources with 2 lands.
Tropical Island + Underground Sea = UGB = 3 different colour sources with 2 lands.
Taiga + Volcanic Island = RGU = 3 different colour sources with 2 lands.
Bayou + Volcanic Island = BGUR = 4 different colour sources with 2 lands.
Tropical Island + Volcanic Island = UGR = 3 different colour sources with 2 lands.
As you can see, this more or less balances out regardless, so the Taiga doesn't really help that much to hit more colours with only 2 land when compared to Bayou. However, I will concede that it hits more colours a small % of the time, as we're more likely to fetch Underground Sea on turn 1 than Volcanic Island. Still, compared to the big issues, this is not relevant.
Red is our tertiary colour in my opinion. For our opening hands, Blue and Black are often the most crucial compared to red, as we often lead with a can-trip or discard. The point of the 13th land is so that we have a fetch-able source for our green sideboard spells. This leaves the only option being Tropical Island and Bayou.
Your point regarding casting Abrupt Decay with Taiga is null as, while you are correct that it does help you cast your red spells more consistently when used with Abrupt Decay off of 2 Lands and no Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal or Gemstone Mines - Abrupt Decay is a 2 of in my sideboard, that is only used in some match-ups, so that scenario will not occur often enough to justify making a sub-optimum change that has negative impacts in the much more commonly occurring scenarios I have mentioned.
To clarify - ultimately I feel like that small improvement of mana-fixing, which is only sometimes relevant for Abrupt Decay, is not worth leading with a Mountain (particularly in Game 1) instead of an Island or Swamp, which is relevant in many more cases. I'd rather have the Island personally.
Hopefully that has shed some light on my stance on the matter. You are entitled to disagree, as was I.
Don't take it so personally, the statement was hardly condescending. With a deck with 12-13 lands it's frequently the case you'll only have 1 land in the opening 7. Having that land be a Taiga is a feel bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Your question was pretty much directed at me, so I answered, which is the least I could do. There is not reason to be flattered or insulted.Quote:
Originally Posted by vercadium
TES is trying to cast all it's spells off 2-3 initial mana sources (read 1-2 lands) which is a huge difference to ANT, which feels comfortable to drop 3-4 lands instead. Building the manabase according to ANT, but just with fewer lands, is a conceptional problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
We had the topic about 2 months ago in this thread and I dared to make a long post back when, explaining why you want the the second Volcanic. Maybe you or any other dear forum user wants to dig that up. I'm lazy at this point and rather post a mikro-spoiler from HotS 7 - Storm Shards:Quote:
Originally Posted by vercadium
Quote:
During the unveiling of the beforementioned list, there was a lot of confusion about running 2 Underground Sea and 2 Volcanic Island instead of a further emphasis towards shuffle-effects by running only a single Volcanic, but 5 Fetchlands. Even more radical suggestions like 1 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic and 6 Fetchlands popped up for discussion, but those suggestions missed a few points. While I love shuffle-effects in a deck which contains full sets of Ponder and Brainstorm like the next guys does, running Volcanic Island or Underground Sea only as singletons can cause several serious problems at times.
The first and obvious flaw in the plan to reduce the actual number of mana-producing lands is the existence of Wasteland. Hands down, this colorless Sinkhole is a cornerstone of the Legacy metagame and not being prepared to fight it equals losing games. Seeing your singleton Dual destroyed and your remaining 4+ Fetchlands (see: beforementioned land-configuation) unable to put either a red- or black-producing land into play, can be the backbreaker for your attempt to go into the combo. To prevent running out of quality targets (in terms of color), or running out of targets altogether (in case you drew/fetched every one of your duals, which turns further drawn Fetchlands into blanks), the list settled on an equal amount of Fetchlands and Duals. Furthermore, several possible scenarios underline the importance of running 2 of each Dual, like drawing an opening hand containing Underground Sea, a Fetchland, Ponder, Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize. There is no way to squeeze out the maximum of value without a second Underground Sea in your 60, as it would be impossible to cast Ponder prior to fetching a second land and still being able to cast a discard-spell. Throwback: Now imagine Wasteland hitting your Underground Sea with that hand! Suddenly your discard-spells are turned off, as the Fetchland has no Underground Sea left to dig up!
Played a mini gauntlet today with a few store regulars.
Shardless BUG - 2-0
Miracles - 2-0
UW Thopters - 2-0
Death and taxes - 1-2
Continuing my bad run against D&T. It's go off quick or sandbag for Massacre, I got greedy in games 1 and 3. Well, hard to beat top decked Thalia.
Didn't get to use Vapor Snare or Pithing Needle in the board, but was nice to know they were there. Got jammed vs Thopters game 2 playing Leyline of Sanctity, passed the turn with 45 goblins and killed him anyway at 1 life with his batterskull, mystic, snapcaster on board.
I really like going down from 3 to 2 decays because of Ad Nauseam.
Define "got greedy" against D&T. The topdeck-hatebear issue is the reason I'm not find of the discard-hatebear-with-Thoughtseize-plan which pops up here at times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Plague Sliver
Looking forward to the storm-showoff in about a month
I had a greedy 7 card keep, on the draw, vs D&T. It was Empty, Rite, Chrome Mox, Ad Nauseam, LED and 2 lands. I figured I could draw a lot of topdecks to go off turn 1 or 2, but it didn't happen. Probably a mulligan with no dig spells.
Game 2 I made 12 goblins turn 2.
Game 3 I mulled to 6 and kept one of those hands with acceleration and no mana where drawing one mana source would have let me make 12 goblins. Turn 1 probe, see garbage, opt not to Therapy, he top decks turn 2 Thalia. There was an interesting sequence where his revoker named lotus petal instead of LED as I expected him to. This was the blowout because I had one land ported and another land plus lotus petal to chain of vapor his thalia. Obv big fail on my part.
I didn't need LED to naturally Empty, but I had two of them in my hand to build storm. We talked about this after and I could have mindgamed a little bit by playing out the LED so he might name it instead.
They were greedy keeps. Well, game 1 was pure greed, and for game 3...I usually don't like going down to 5, it puts me way too far behind and I'd rather gamble if there are so many outs.
Also for what it's worth, I keep my probes in for the storm and cycling, and took out all 3 Duresses. The plan is to blind name Thalia with Therapy everytime and buyback for Jitte/Batterskull. Against Taxes I also side the Infernal back in because I'll maximize my chance of goblins any day of the week. I pretty much took your advice to heart and don't rely on the Decays they are too expensive. My sideboard still has a singleton Chain for this matchup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plague Sliver
Played terribly this weekend in KC.
2-1 Elves
0-2 BUG Delver
2-0 UWR Delver
2-0 UWR Delver
1-2 Deathblade
2-1 Maverick
2-1 Eggs
0-2 Sneaky Show
Drop
5-3 overall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Play it out 6-3 for $50?
What happened in the SneakShow matchup?Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Won a 139 player side event at GP:Worchester for a foil set of Modern Masters. Deck felt very good and my Ad Nauseams were noticeably better.
I played with Needles both events and never was able to cast them despite siding them in three or four times. Void Snare was used three times, once to bounce a Leyline and then Iona & Goblin Guide (believe it or not! it gave me lethal with Empty tokens).
2-0 Esper Deathblade
2-0 Omnitell
2-0 NicFit
2-1 bUrg Delver
2-0 UWr Delver
2-0 UR Delver
1-2 UWR Delver (Jared Beottcher)
Top 4
2-0 UWR Delver (Jared Beottcher)
2-0 Shardless BUG (Two turn 1 ETW = 14 with Therapies)
I also took down a win-a-box defeating Reanimator twice.
2-1 Reanimator
2-1 Elves
2-1 Reanimator
Congrats Bryant , TES is still here and fully alive !!
Why would u say it gave u better nauseams If u cutted the 3rd mox wich usualy does this?
Of you dont played the 1st page list?
congrats anyway!!!!
I updated the OP with the list I played. Not the content though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
Congrats on the great finishs! =DQuote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
BTW, since you got such great results, would you mind writing a report? I´ve been having a lot of trouble against BUG , miracles and reanimator, and you seemed to be alright =D
Thanks a lot for the fast replies and congrats again
This seems like a double post, but it isn't.
I just got a sneak attack as a prize on a 8-man tournament =D
I used the old version w/ cabal ritual. (2 Chrome mox/2 cabal ritual, w/ tropical island in the maindeck)
Match-ups:
2-0 Goblins (AN FTW)
1-2 miracles (AN on 1st game, then 2 t2 canonists on the following games, backed up w/ soft counters (game2) and countertop (game3) =/)
2-0 Junk (got 2 AN victories through t1 chalice on both games, w/ thespian combo waiting for me on T4. In this matches, cabal rituals really shined =D)
top 4:
1-1 - BUG delver (but he was a teammate, and had to leave early, so he conceaded ^^)
2-0 - Goblins (close games.
game1 got through discarding a sharpshooter and killing the 2nd w/ grapeshot =D,
the 2nd game got a risky hand OTDraw , getting the IMS to 16 goblins)
Guess I gotta thank everyone here for the testing and feedback, since I have been following the thread since page 180 (^^), and my teammate that pointed out how i could win against him against bug delver...
If any of you think it will be helpful, i can write a more detailed report.
So with the 13 land deck u never got flooded?
Do you sided out the tropical in some matches?
how good where the 2 chain of vapor? im still not sure if they are so good. Usualy I would prefer another decay and xantid.
Not likely, I didn't take any notes as it was a side event. I could write stuff from memory, but it wouldn't be completely worthwhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by seilaquem
No, no and they were fine. Then don't play them? Remember, you don't have to run my list!Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
that's too bad. I guess i'll still have to figure out how to battle reanimator =/Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I still am not 100% sure about going back to 3 CMs (just because I am enjoying cabal ritual so much), but the extra land is great. It's not like there is a HUGE difference between 12 to 13 lands. it is still a "wastable" land to cantrip T1 if you want to play around wastelandQuote:
Originally Posted by Togores
Also, chain of vapor is great. It helps against hate, and you can use it to proactively increase the storm count. It can help a lot against leyline and reanimator , and it's better protection against burn, since they are playing 4 eidolons main, which can be a huge pain =/
I was at 2 life game one with Tendrils for 28 on the stack against my opponent. She tried to Misdirect a copy to kill me? That doesn't work. She calls a floor judge who rules it, in fact, does kill me. I lose game 2. I should have appealed to the head judge. The floor judge later apologizes for being an idiot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I was pretty titled. Never had a reason before to appeal a judge ruling before. Felt pretty awful.
Game two she casts Show and Tell and drops in Emrakul. I drop in Xantid Swarm. I can only Tendrils for 14. She's at 15. I lose. She was very salty about winning, too. Sometimes I just don't understand people.
I didn't play Pithing Needle. Replaced them with 1 Massacre and the third Xantid Swarm. Didn't want needle all day. Massacre helped me beat Elves and killed a flipped delver and TNN against UWR Delver to buy enough time to win the game.
Also, people in the Midwest are idiots. Everyone that cast Meddling Mage against me named Tendrils of Agony. Both did so with perfect information of my hand knowing I'd win the following turn.
Didn't play out the last round for $50 because I honestly didn't care about the money. Just wanted to go home and enjoy the rest of my vacation.
Well, did they have lethal on board? cause if they don't havet, you can still empty the warrens and attack them on the following turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Also, if you have enough storm, you could simply grapeshot them all the way. It wouldn't be showboating them in this situation...
(I am aware that tendrils is better, but there were other lines you could try to play around pikula... you should be thankful they didn't name burning wish. cause then you would be dead on the spot )
She had Emrakul in play?Quote:
Originally Posted by seilaquem
He just mentioned he could storm for 7, so that's 14 goblins. 6 of which would die to Emrakul, leaving 8, to attack his opponent down to 7 life, then lose on the second attack to lethal damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by seilaquem
That's a bad suggestion.
sorry, that comment was addressed to the meddling mage problem. He complained he couldn't win against a meddling mage naming tendrils. I just answered how he could play around it. (just edited the post)Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Unless the S&Show was a UWR variant that played meddling mage...
There is a big difference in having 20 initial mana sources vs 18 for Ad Nauseam flips aka Self-inflicted damage, opening hands, mulligans and to overcome softcounters.Quote:
Originally Posted by seilaquem
Yeah, i thought about it considering the count of lands only, but I wasn't considering IMSs in the deck. thats a great POV that I hadn't considered. Thanks a lot =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I was already convinced that the tropical belonged to the main, since it's a great way to fight against tempo strategies.
So I'll just try the 3rd mox on main and remove the cabal rituals... it's more directed to the "2nd/3rd turn kill" of TES.
Guess I was playing the deck more focused like an ANT deck.
I killed both UWR Delver opponents with Empty the Warrens when they had Meddling Mage out?Quote:
Originally Posted by seilaquem
I didn't complain, nor did I say I couldn't win against a Meddling Mage. Learn to read.
For example, my opponent probes me and sees Dark Ritual, LED, Infernal Tutor, Land. He still named Tendrils of Agony with his Meddling Mage. Why the hell would you do that given perfect knowledge of my hand?
The thing is -- no you wouldn't.
How have you sided vs the UWR variants and BURG Delver?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Sorry to hear that, man. I don't know what I would have done after I realized the judge's mistake. Cooler heads prevail... and winners should never be salty. End of story.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
As for idiots naming Tendrils with Mage, I hope to play more of these Magicians in the future, that's for sure.
Yeah, I play the 13th land in my list (tropical island) as well. But to be honest, I'm not sure it's the right call. I only do it because I'm running out of sideboard slots, and trying to be greedy by running both Pyroclasm and Massacre in the board. It becomes a "null" card in game 1 most of the time, and then I'm wondering why I don't just play a 4th Chrome Mox or even a Preordain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
But then I remember how bad a 4th Chrome Mox is, and I regain my senses.
Game 1 the tropical island is pretty much a wastable island, and Game 2 and 3 when I side vs. Miracles I bring in the hate stuff and side out the second Volcanic Island, bringing me to 12 lands anyways.
So what am I trying to say here? I do run 13 lands main, but I'm not sure it's right. But I'm pretty comfortable with it, so I do it. My suggestion is to do what makes you comfortable, and not necessarily what everyone does, or what Bryant does (sorry Bryant). This is a math-heavy deck, but sometimes you need some sub-optimal configurations to give you that irrational edge/comfort zone.
I was trying Simian Spirit Guide as my sixtieth, it was an ok slot. However, I'm not sure if having room for another chain of vapor in the board and averting the 3CMC monkey is worth carrying Trop in the main (http://puu.sh/avlf1/b117007667.png). Conversely, I'm not sure the extra accel is worth the volatility of flips off ad nauseam just to have the slightly more focused initial 60 (SSG is pretty much the worth Rit effect, not even a spell, etc). I wouldn't just play whatever "feels comfortable", though, even if your sixty+fifteen is only marginally better when youve found that long-researched configuration, you should still be testing to find that true-optimal 75.Quote:
Originally Posted by Plague Sliver
I'd like to point out that thirteen lands isn't some new crazy revelation, we've ran that many before. It just happened that we shaved a land when making room for Gitaxian Probe.
I recently finished reading all the old TES threads, and it is intriguing that both the sideboard Infernal Tutor and 13th land have come up before. I just wish the 13th land didn't have to be a Trop. It's also kinda funny that so many posts in the old threads were about a shortage of good rainbow lands, and now when we have mana confluence we're at a point in time where we're sporting duals and fetches instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I don't know why this should be surprising. The deck is no longer 5 colored and because of the powercreep in the game, the deck was required to maximize it's cantrips further and gaining a more stable manabase. The times, in which you could afford to eat damage with every tapping of a land or could play "land, go" for 3-4 turns, like AJ Kerrigan did in his very youth, just to kill your opponent with a single Silence and near full life, are long passed.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
It is just amusing to think that we could pretty easily run all 5c lands if we wanted now, but its not even relevant anymore. if every other deck has higher card quality (and some decks from a couple years ago don't exist anymore because they didn't get higher card quality) and stable operations then this deck would have to tune itself to that same caliber as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
On a larger overall topic, does anyone else think the list for TES, as a whole, is kinda "locked in" at this point? It seems like, now that it's effectively preboarded for the meta and cramming all the haymakers we can fit into a 75, that there just isn't a lot to change anymore. Anytime I see a TES list that topped a daily, and it's running some tech like Telemin or Ignorant Bliss in the board, I just think "well, to make room, theres no card X, so this guy is just dropping matches to deck Y..." while the current list with Pithing Needle feels really balanced generally. Does anyone else have that same feeling looking at the Needle list that it's the end of flex-slots barring some huge meta shift or, heaven forbid, we actually get new relevant cards for combo?
Nothing is ever "locked". I read such stuff back then we ran 4 Silence, 2 Duress, 1 Therapy and 2 more in the board until I annoyed the shit out of this thread with my "we need more Therapies in the MB due to Gitaxian Probe and EtW!" and we all switched to 3 Silence and 4 Therapy then, just to shook up the "locked slots" of Silences and Rainbows with our all switch to discard-only shortly later.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
The beauty of the deck is it's ability to adjust itself to any metagame change within a short period of time and it wouldn't be groundbreaking news if we return to silence at some point in the future if the metagame shifts once more in the white instants favor. I'm no romantic in terms of creating a stale image of a deck in my head as people did in the past with comment like "TES' signature card is Silence and without it, the deck is Burning ANT or TNT!".
The era of 3 I.T. base was the era of Mainly 2 Mystical Tutor main. (2 more threats than now) If I wanted to include a land I will include likely a fetch, but I dont think 1 slot in side is enough reason to put in a nonsense Land instead of I.T. for all your first games.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
Apart, can anyone answer me to the question about how Bryant sided vs BUG and UWR? and I have other question: was Grapeshot relevant in any of the match ups and on averall?
Thanks.
Against Jared he boarded in 2 Decays and the Tendrils; kept EtW in too.
Guys, boarding on the fly should become natural and your knowledge gained by spotting your next round opponents or by chatting with them should flow directly into your boarding plans instead of strict +/- sheets preciously constructed. Some Miracles pilots side out Terminus, some won't; this should affect your plan of keeping EtW or not as well as considering to board in xantids. The same is true for RUG Delver if they board out 1-2 Bolts for flusterstorms or the like: suddenly Xantids are appealing.
In all honest, all information in regards to boarding and how to approach matchups is in the OP and the exact plans should be deceloped on the fly instead of thinking in Patterns
Yes, side-boarding should be natural, adaptive and most importantly based on understanding. You are correct that strict sheets of +/- often under perform and are not the way to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I believe you exaggerate "boarding on the fly" however. There is still a correct, optimum sideboard based on defaults for a given match-up that should be used as a baseline and known before entering an event. Yes, there will be changes based on the opposing player and I'm not saying it's "set in stone", as information you receive will change your plan.
Sure, if they board out Terminus, you can use Empty the Warrens. Yes, Xantid Swarm is appealing if they are boarding out 1/2 Flusterstorms for Lightning Bolt. You're right in both of these cases, but realistically, how often are you going to be able to gather such precise information? 15% of the time?
Of course, there will be random scenarios where you know the guy, or you overheard him talking to his friends before the game. But for most other occasions, even if we assume the pilot is some master of the mind who knows 50% of the time exactly what is going out and coming in, it's still worth taking the time to create and discuss an optimum default sideboard strategy for the match-up.
I would argue, that even at 50%, unless you have good & solid information, that side-boarding away from this optimum configuration based on your 'gut' is more likely to get you blown out. If your information is good & solid, then by all means, stray from the path and use that advantage. Otherwise, just like the main-deck, there is a correct default and following this will often yield more consistent results.