Wow. Warping Wail is pretty out there. This is an actual counterspell that we can cast. What a powerful too it is. It counters Elves, the deck. Virtually that entire deck is tiny pukes and sorceries. It looks like it might be maindeck material.
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Wow. Warping Wail is pretty out there. This is an actual counterspell that we can cast. What a powerful too it is. It counters Elves, the deck. Virtually that entire deck is tiny pukes and sorceries. It looks like it might be maindeck material.
Yup, Warping Wail looks to be a very nice addition. Pretty much counters every important card in most combo decks. Definitely going to have this as a 4 of in the Goblins sideboard. Could even try 1 or 2 in the main as you suggested Finn.
Match-by-match look at the card:
Miracles: Counters Terminus, Entreat, Council's Judgment. Instant speed body useful for late games / vs Jace if you have equipment out.
How good is it: 6/10?
Would you want it main? Seems better post-board than main, as they are less likely to have Counterbalance, which this is pretty bad against.
Grixis Delver: DRS, Unflipped Delver, Young Pyromancer, Clique. Will hit a few one-ofs like Forked Bolt, but it's definitely a removal spell in this matchup.
How good is it: 8/10
Would you want it main? Yes.
Shardless: DRS, Baleful, Hymn, TS, Ancestral Vision
How good is it: 6/10. Hits random stuff, lets you save your STP for Goyf and not DRS, but doesn't do much against a T1 TS, Goyf, Lili hand.
Would you want it main? Hard to say. It does stuff, but they're going to win the attrition battle.
D+T Mirror: Kills pretty much every regularly played creature but the beaters
How good is it: 9/10
Would you want it main? Yes. Thank god no other T1 deck can actually play this.
Burn: Swiftspear, Chain Lightning, Lava Spike, Rift Bolt. Not insane, but trades for a card.
How good is it: 5/10
Would you want it main? It doesn't work well with a Thalia gameplan against them, especially since we're trading for cards that cost less mana. Is very bad if Eidolon is out. And generally they cast their sorceries early. Still, one-for-one'ing Burn is a generally solid strategy.
Storm: Infernal Tutors, PiF, Dark Petition. Probe/Therapy to protect your bear.
How good is it: 8/10
Would you want it main? Yes.
SnS: Show and Tell obviously. Cantrips.
How good is it: 4/10
Would you want it main? I don't really think so, they're better equipped to protect their Show and Tell in a counterspell war than they are to deal with creatures + Karakas, and sometimes they'll have Sneak anyway.
Omni: Similar targets.
How good is it: 6/10 - better since they're always on the SnT plan
Would you want it main? Like Miracles, I think it becomes better post-board because they'll likely have boarded out some counterspells.
BUG Delver: DRS, Bob, Unflipped Delver. Occasionally a Ponder or a SB card.
How good is it: 8/10
Would you want it main? Yes, always having something in your hand for Bob/DRS would be nice.
Elves: Obviously a superstar here, hits most of their creatures and 100% of their maindeck spells.
How good is it: 10/10
Would you want it main? Yes.
Lands: Gamble, Loam.
How good is it: 2/10
Would you want it main? No. Wont be fast enough for a lot of their Gambles, Loam is not a great counterspell target. Does nothing else.
Fish: Early Cursecatcher or Silvergill.
How good is it: 2/10
Would you want it main? No. Removal for their weakest creatures that is live for one turn, if even.
Rug Delver: Unflipped Delver, Forked Bolt, Rough/Tumble out of the board
How good is it: 2/10
Would you want it main? No, pretty terrible here too.
Infect: All their creatures, but it's turned off by any of their pump.
How good is it: Kinda hard to judge. Obviously not bad to have tons of removal but it can be played around and is bad late or vs Pendlehaven. Maybe 6/10.
Would you want it main? Probably, bad removal is still removal.
Painter: More removal for Painter's Servant is always good, though weirdly uncastable with a Blood Moon in play. (RW taxes needs to remember this.)
How good is it: 5/10
Would you want it main? Bad main. Probably best for mono-W post-board where they'll have few to no Moons.
I would also add that it counters the following from BUG and Jund:
Hymn to Tourach
Thoughtseize
Toxic Deluge
Massacre
Hmm. I am concerned that we have insufficient uncolor mana. What do you fellows think of Kor Haven to prop up the supply?
I'm not a huge fan, unless we increase the number of lands we play. I would think upping the number of Cavern of Souls would be the first step.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I was already thinking about adding 1 Sea Gate Wreckage, so perhaps that's a worthy colorless source.
Warping Wail's dissynergy with thailia concerns me though. Boarding it in against a matchup like Elves where you want to take out thalia seems doable though.
I think I'm going to test a list like this post-release:
23 Land:
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
25 Creatures:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Vryn Wingmare
12 Spells:
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Warping Wail
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Warping Wail
SB: 1 Mirran Crusader
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 1 Fireslinger
Not sure any Wingmare are appropriate as a Thalia/Wingmare game gets more awkward w/ more of these.
Even if you're not playing RW, I think Cavern is a much stronger card than Kor Haven, and you can shift the deck to have more Humans / shared creature types.
Would R/W Taxes be the only version that *couldn't* play Warping Wail, on account of Magus of the Moon? That ain't no pesky non-synergy, Wail is literally uncastable if you have a Magus out. Speaking from the point of view of a DnT color-splasher, noncreature spells probably require 9 or 10 sources of that color to work. First, when I was just running Gaddock Teeg in G/W, 6-7 green sources and 4 Vials felt like enough, but once I moved to adding 2x Sylvan Library, I was basically forced to go to 6-7 fetches and 3-4 Savannahs. The same applies for Warping Wail, except 4 of those sources are sometimes just "throwaways" in Wasteland, but to make it work, I think you'd need our regular 8 colorless + 2 Caverns at a minimum. And they need to *stay* able to produce colorless.
Wail is literally uncastable if you have Magus out, but if you have Magus out against most of the field and it lives you've probably won, so the one dead card in your hand matters about as much as the 6 dead cards in their hand. It seems probably - not definitely, but probably - maindeckable for the same reasons Magus is, which is that the upside is quite high, even if it's not hard to envision various situations you don't want to see that card in your hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwordsToTimeshares
Overall Wail is stronger in matchups where I usually take the Maguses out because they can survive on basics and other mana - Miracles, Reanimator, Storm, Elves, Omni, D+T - or vs 3 color BUG style decks where Kill DRS + Play Magus is the easiest two card wincon, and this serves as one of those two cards.
http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/matterreshaper.jpg
So I have both Goblins and D&T built and I personally am wondering if this card would be good in D&T. I often find that the part that I miss when playing this deck is the lack of card advantage. This card is 3/2 beater that will eventually have to be dealt with or blocked, and when it dies it either draws a card or just gives a free uncounterable permanent.
There's also this
http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/seagatewreckage.jpg
Again I find that drawing cards is the only reason why this deck suffers. If we can manage to get some card advantage the consistency of this deck increases.
I may be wrong as I play Goblins more often, but I personally have found that card advantage is the only reason I don't enjoy playing Death and Taxes that often.
I plan on experimenting! Happy testing!
it says dies. Both StP and Terminus get rid of it without killing it.. if it was "leave play" like Sundering Titan, well, I would try it 4x
I am nervous about including too many cards that require that uncolor mana. If there was such a thing as a dual that could make both those colors it would be different, but I can't think of one of those.
For decks splashing, another option for C is in the Filter Lands.
I like Matter Reshaper as a card, and I think it probably has a place somewhere but maybe only Modern, not Legacy, where you can't win games off a pile of value creatures. And yeah, as Poron mentioned, the fact that STP is the most played removal spell in the format and the most played control decks almost never actually kills your creatures means that death triggers are generally weak in Legacy.
Sea Gate is a more interesting card I think, but it might just be relevant too infrequently and against not enough of the field.
Thought Knot Seer is also a very strong card and a possible sideboard option. It's a 4 drop but a beater with a Thoughtseize attached that can't be bolted, abrupt decayed and gets extra value from Flickerwisp. Combo decks get slower g2/g3 and generally aren't boarding into answers that can touch this guy.
Tested 4 Warping Wail against post-board Elves in a fairly large set of games. It was solid and casting it was not an issue with 11 C sources. It was hard to not show my hand when I was leaving a Port + Land up - Elves isn't really a matchup where you can afford to bluff and when you're not doing something, especially with those it's pretty suspicious - but that card always is going to do something relevant, even if they want to play around it. Still, even though it was quite easy to cast, I'm less sure of it as a maindeck card.
Tested with Sea Gate Wreckage today against Shardless BUG. It was so good I'm running a second. It pushed through many upkeep triggers and it was very easy to use. I won several games due to the fact I was able to draw two extra cards off of it before it was Wasted by my opponent.
I'm using Warping Wail as a 3 of in the sideboard. I'll report back as I play it more.
Wreckage is great also in multiples.
If you respond the first acrivation with a second activation you draw 2 cards (there is no check on resolution only on activation)
Yeah, Poron. But two activations requires 8 mana. I am not sure I have ever had 8 mana with this deck.
You could try pain lands or filter lands, but this deck has lots of colorless mana sources as is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Got wrecked again tonight by Punishing Jund....
My list:
4 Wastelands
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
3 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
4 Moms
4 Mystics
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia
3 Recruiters
3 Revokers
2 Magus
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Fiendhunter
4 Swords
4 Vials
1 SoFaI
1 Batterskul
1 Jitte
s/b:
2 Sudden Demise
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgement
2 Wilt-Leaf Lieges (additions for the last few weeks to try to fight Jund)
1 Sunlance
1 Leonin Relic Warder
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
I don't want to abandon the deck for my local Sunday tourney... but man.. between pfire+grove and bolts and decays.. and even main deck Toxic Deluges...it's so FREAKING tough trying to win. Post-board they have golgari charms (or pyroclasms)....I just feel like no matter what I do I get torn apart... I've considered going up to 4 wilt-leaf lieges... but unless it gets put out via discard it's probably not getting cast :(
My only wins come from a magus with mom and I have them basically on all nonbasics...
Now we have TWO guys running the deck on a regular basis...
Ughhh..
I already had 8 mana with this deck once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
It was a fight vs MUD: 10/10, lifelink vigilance wurcoil engine vs 8/8, double strike lifelink vigilance pro-red pro-blue mirran crusader.... that was a long game :)
Yes, D&T looses most of the time vs jund.Quote:
Originally Posted by AsmodeusDM
Rest in piece, magus, mirran crusader are good against it, but you should not warp too much your deck to play against this deck.
@AsmodeusDM
You just need to let combo players know that your local is a free roll for them with two Jund players. That is more likely to improve your percentage against Jund by a) giving it losses round 1 more often so you are not getting paired against it and b) might dissuade people from playing Jund.
Otherwise, there is no good anti-Jund plan for this deck that doesn't warp it beyond all hope. As Imperial Taxes has shown, we can even create a build against Elves that still gives us a very powerful build (back-breaking against BUG decks without basics, actually), but there is no good answer to Jund because even magus leaves then with Punishing Fire and Bolt and Massacre if they have a single basic Swamp, and they typically run 2.
@Sea Gate Wreckage
Even as a one-of, I don't like this card because unlike Wasteland and Rishadan Port, if it is out early, it isn't helping your mana denial gameplan; unlike Cavern it isn't getting your Thalia past Daze turn 2; unlike man lands, it isn't a threat turn 2 or turn 3; and it remains a value target for Wasteland and Stifle.
I just don't want to pay 4 mana for a cantrip. Has anyone noticed that making cantrips cost 3-4 mana is what makes Vryn Wingmare + Thalia so good?
Yeah there's no secret answer to Jund, the deck is nothing but removal and threats that have to be immediately answered. Unlike Shardless or other midrange decks, there are no durdly blue cards to get in the way.
I think Wilt-Leaf is not meant for the R/W manabase and I have always found the card too narrow to be worth a SB slot. I would suggest putting a 3rd Magus in the SB and maybe another RiP instead. You could also replace Fiend Hunter with another Mirran Crusader. I have never loved Fiend Hunter, but it's especially bad against a deck with so much removal. 3rd Magus and 3rd RiP are cards that will get more use than Wilt Leaf - and they might not even be worse in the matchup.
3 RIP, 3 Magus, 2 Crusader, 4 Mom gives you a decent shot at having a draw that locks them out in some way or another, even if you're still realistically not favored. There's really very little you can do to consistently beat maindeck Toxic Deluges. You can toss in Absolute Law and even more Crusaders/Maguses, but they have maindeck answers to all of our answers, so there's never going to be a build that can just ensure that you're not open to something or another. Crusader dies to red spells, Absolute Law and RiP get decayed, Mom gets Deluged/Charmed, Wilt-Leaf can easily get stuck in your hand if they don't have a discard-heavy opening or see it with a T1 Thoughtseize.
Try surgical extraction, I run two in my sideboard and it is amazing against loam/punishing fire. I don't think it makes the matchup positive but it gets competitive once you remove the fire.
Yeah; or just play my ANT deck :DQuote:
Originally Posted by c2232
But I've really really been enjoying playing D&T with the red splash.. I just feel so much more in control of the game and have the opponent constantly gnawing in fear at a vial activation or the tapping of 3+ mana :cool:
I completely agree with switching to ANT if the field is as openly hostile to DnT as your description indicates. As with all decks, it can be hated out. As with all Legacy players, you have time to allow the metagame to drift back into neutrality when that happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by AsmodeusDM
Hello,
I'm playing a mono-white list and have a hard time working out a sideboard. The list looks like this and I'd like suggestions!
CREATURES (26)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Serra Avenger
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
2 Vryn Wingmare
2 Mirran Crusader
INSTANTS (4)
4 Swords to Plowshares
ARTIFACTS (7)
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
LANDS (23)
12 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Cataclysm
2 Rest in Peace
1 Council’s Judgment
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Containment Priest
1 Absolute Law
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
Wrote a little SB plan as well, would like some comments about that as well :)
Control
Miracles:
In: 2 Cataclysm, 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Ratchet Bomb
Out: 2-4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Serra Avenger, 2 Mirran Crusader, 0-2 Wryn Wingmare
Death and Taxes:
In: 2 Ratchet Bomb, 1 Council’s Judgement, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 2 Mangara of Corondor
Out: 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 2 Vryn Wingmare
12 Post:
In: 2 Cataclysm, 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Pithing Needle
Out: 4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Vryn Wingmare
Lands:
In: 2 Cataclysm, 2 Rest in Peace, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Absolute Law
Out: 2 Phyrexian Revoker, 2 Vryn Wingmare, 2 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Aggro/Midrange
Bug Delver:
In: 2 Ratchet Bomb, 2 Rest in Peace
Out: 4 Phyrexian Revoker
Rug Delver:
In: 2 Ratchet Bomb, 2 Rest in Peace, 1 Absolute Law
Out: 4 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Flickerwisp
Shardless Bug:
In: 2 Rest in Peace, 1 Cataclysm, 1 Mangara of Corondor
Out: 2 Flickerwisp, 1 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Swords to Plowshares
Jund:
In: 2 Rest in Peace, 1 Council’s Judgement, 1 Absolute Law, 2 Cataclysm
Out: 3 Flickerwisp, 2 Vryn Wingmare, 1 Phyrexian Revoker
Goblins:
In: 1 Ratchet Bomb, 1 Council’s Judgement, 1 Absolute Law, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Containment Priest, 1 Cataclysm
Out: 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 2 Vryn Wingmare, 1 Phyrexian Revoker
Maverick:
In: 2 Rest in Peace, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Ratchet Bomb, 1 Councils Judgement, 1 Seal of Cleansing
Out: 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 2 Vryn Wingmare, 1 Phyrexian Revoker
Esper Blade:
In: 2 Cataclysm, 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Seal of Cleansing
Out: 2 Vryn Wingmare, 1 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 1 Mirran Crusader, 1 Swords to Plowshares
UWR Blade:
In: 2 Cataclysm, 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 1 Absolute Law
Out: 2 Vryn Wingmare, 2 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 1 Mirran Crusader, 1 Swords to Plowshares
Merfolk:
In: 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 2 Ratchet Bomb
Out: 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 2 Vryn Wingmare
Affinity:
In: 1 Council’s Judgement, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 1 Pithing Needle, 2 Ratchet Bomb, 2 Mangara of Corondor,
Out: 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 1 Mother of Runes, 2 Vryn Wingmare
Combo
Burn:
In: 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 Absolute Law, 1 Seal of Cleansing
Out: 4 Phyrexian Revoker
Sneak and Show:
In: 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Absolute Law, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 1 Containment Priest
Out: 4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Mirran Crusader
OmniTell:
In: 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 2 Cataclysm
Out: 4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Umezawa’s Jitte
ANT:
In: 2 Rest in Peace, 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 2 Ratchet Bomb,
Out: 4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Flickerwisp
Elves:
In: 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 Containment Priest, 2 Ratchet Bomb
Out: 2 Thalia, 2 Vryn Wingmare, 1 Flickerwisp
Infect:
In: 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 Pithing Needle, 2 Ratchet Bomb
Out: 2 Serra Avenger, 2 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice, 1 Mirran Crusader
Imperial Painter:
In: 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 1 Absolute Law, 1 Pithing Needle
Out: 2 Mirran Crusader, 2 Serra Avenger, 1 Batterskull, 1 Flickerwisp
Reanimator:
In: 2 Rest in Peace, 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Containment Priest,
Out: 2 Mirran Crusader, 2 Serra Avenger, 1 Umezawa’s Jitte, 1 Swords to Plowshares
Dredge:
In: 2 Rest in Peace, 2 Ratchet Bomb, 1 Containment Priest
Out: 2 Serra Avenger, 2 Flickerwisp, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Best regards,
Benke
Miracles:
In: 2 Cataclysm, 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Ratchet Bomb
Out: 2-4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Serra Avenger, 2 Mirran Crusader, 0-2 Wryn Wingmare
--- I don't really love Seal of Cleansing / disenchant effects, even if it can destroy a tapped top (at -1 card)...I would rather just have another creature that can put real pressure on them. I think I am in the minority here and most people bring in disenchant effects though.
I also take out zero StP vs Miracles these days, because you are so likely to see a Mentor or another creature that wrecks you like Izzet Staticaster and *always* having an answer in your hand is great. Also by siding out your Avengers and Crusaders, you're actually leaving yourself w/ a deck that's nothing but x/1s so if they happen to be playing multiple Izzet Staticasters post-board, you're really at risk to just autolose to the card. I might try something like: +2 cataclysm, +1 judgement, +1 mangara, +1 needle +1 bomb -1 jitte, -2 wingmare, -3 flickerwisp.
12 Post:
In: 2 Cataclysm, 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Pithing Needle
Out: 4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Vryn Wingmare
--- I usually keep 2 StP for Prime Times. You can still beat a Titan after one trigger, but you can't beat it if they get an attack in. Containment Priest should come in since SnT is their primary gameplan vs us and they often shut off our Vials anyway. Taking out a few Thalias vs them is also generally fine, she feels relevant for about one or two turns and you don't want to draw into multiples.
Bug Delver:
In: 2 Ratchet Bomb, 2 Rest in Peace
Out: 4 Phyrexian Revoker
--- I don't think you want 0 Revokers vs any DRS deck, you probably don't need 4, but you definitely don't want 0.
Jund:
In: 2 Rest in Peace, 1 Council’s Judgement, 1 Absolute Law, 2 Cataclysm
Out: 3 Flickerwisp, 2 Vryn Wingmare, 1 Phyrexian Revoker
--- I definitely wouldn't take out any Revokers and I don't think this is a great Cataclysm matchup - no matter what creature they keep, it'll be something we're not thrilled to see. I read someone suggest taking out Vials vs Jund once, I have never done it myself (and I've been playing the red splash, which wants to get a surprise Magus vs them anyway) - but it seems like a reasonable idea. Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
Merfolk:
In: 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 2 Ratchet Bomb
Out: 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 2 Vryn Wingmare
--- Mangara has won some games for me vs Merfolk in the past, and is obviously great vs Lords, but he is slow. It's worth noting that there are fairly different builds of Fish, and he might be stronger vs the slower builds rather than pure tempo builds that play Daze.
OmniTell:
In: 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 2 Cataclysm
Out: 4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Umezawa’s Jitte
--- I don't love Cataclysm, I think I would probably just rather have a vanilla 2/1 attacking. If your Thalia/Wingmare plan is going well then it's pretty hard to cast. It clears an Omni if they managed to SnT it but not win, but only if you can cast it and they don't have a counterspell. Or serves as a bad Armageddon that also requires sacrificing some creatures. That seems too narrow overall.
Infect:
In: 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 Pithing Needle, 2 Ratchet Bomb
Out: 2 Serra Avenger, 2 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice, 1 Mirran Crusader
--- This one is up for debate and is referenced in earlier pages, but I have found taking out Thalias and Moms to be a successful strategy, as Thalia hurts our plan a little more than it hurts theirs. If you're on the Thalia+Wingmare plan, then your Council's Judgement is uncastable, and your Ratchet Bomb comes online wayyy too late to hit the only card we care about, Agent. Revokers hit Hierarch and Crusader can get past any blocker + blocks G Elf well and is the best Jitte holder. Sofi is worth keeping as a replacement Jitte and it's certainly better than Batterskull in a matchup where your life doesn't matter at all. Mangara is also good here.
So maybe something like - 4 Thalia, -2 Mom, -1 Batterskull, +2 Canonist, +2 Bomb, +1 Judgement, +2 Mangara
Reanimator:
In: 2 Rest in Peace, 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Containment Priest,
Out: 2 Mirran Crusader, 2 Serra Avenger, 1 Umezawa’s Jitte, 1 Swords to Plowshares
--- I think you never want to take out any StP, sometimes they go all in on a non-legendary creature and a StP just wins the game on the spot. There's no reanimation target that Mangara touches that StP doesn't also. Crusader is also very strong in my experience, as it can attack past a lot of reanimation targets (Gris, Grave Titan), can't be abrupt decayed, is a fast clock. I might take out Revokers instead here.
I'm an infect player and I definitely agree Skull comes out before SoFI. Ratchet bomb is decent, Council's Judgement is slow but functional. I think you'd be better off taking out the Moms and 2 Serra Avengers over Thalia. The only games I lose to DnT are the ones where I'm tightly constrained on mana and therefore can't both cast my cantrips/pump spells and hold up counters. I also advise you to keep Revoker in. Stopping Hierarch alone is enough reason to keep them IMO. Canonist is great against us and so is Flickerwisp (with Vial of course). Mangara feels way too slow to me, so I'd keep it boarded out.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Just 2 cents from the guy on the other side ;)
I have a difficult time sideboarding as well, but I'm getting better at it. Any advice would be appreciated. Here's the list I'm playing:
Creatures (26)
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
1 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Vryn Wingmare
Spells (11)
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Lands (23)
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Council's Judgment
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Cataclysm
Miracles
-1 Flickerwisp, -2 Mirran Crusader, -4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Plains; +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Seal of Cleansing, +1 Brimaz, +2 Council's Judgment, +1 Sword of War and Peace, +2 Cataclysm
Storm
-1(-2) Stoneforge (On Draw), -1 Umezawa's Jitte, -4 Swords to Plowshares; +1 Enlightened Tutor, +0(+1) Pithing Needle (On Draw), +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +2 Rest in Peace, +1 Seal of Cleansing
Shardless BUG
-1 Phyrexian Revoker, -2 Flickerwisp, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, -1 Swords to Plowshares; +1 Relic of Progenitus, +2 Rest in Peace, +1 Seal of Cleansing, +1 Council's Judgment
Grixis Delver
-2 Phyrexian Revoker, -1 Mangara of Corondor, -1 Horizon Canopy; +1 Path to Exile, +1 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Rest in Peace, +1 Brimaz
Death & Taxes
-4 Thalia, -1 Vryn Wingmare; +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Seal of Cleansing, +2 Council's Judgment, +1 Sword of War and Peace
Burn
-3 Phyrexian Revoker, -1 Mirran Crusader, -1 Horizon Canopy; +1 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Seal of Cleansing, +1 Brimaz, +1 Council's Judgment, +1 Sword of War and Peace
Infect
-1 Phyrexian Revoker, -3 Mother of Runes, -1 Batterskull; +1 Path to Exile, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Seal of Cleansing
Elves
-4 Thalia, -1 Vryn Wingmare, -1 Plains; +1 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Path to Exile, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Council's Judgment
Lands
-2 Phyrexian Revoker, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, -4 Swords to Plowshares; +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Relic of Progenitus, +2 Rest in Peace, +1 Sword of War and Peace, +2 Cataclysm
Esper Stoneblade
-1 Phyrexian Revoker, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, -4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Plains; +2 Rest in Peace, +2 Council's Judgment, +1 Sword of War and Peace, +2 Cataclysm
Deathblade
-3 Phyrexian Revoker, -1 Mother of Runes, -1 Swords to Plowshares; +1 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Seal of Cleansing, +1 Brimaz, +2 Council's Judgment
Aggro Loam
-2 Phyrexian Revoker, -1 Flickerwisp, -2 Thalia, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, -1 Swords to Plowshares; +1 Relic of Progenitus, +2 Rest in Peace, +1 Seal of Cleansing, +1 Brimaz, +2 Council's Judgment, +1 Sword of War and Peace
BUG Delver
-3 Phyrexian Revoker, -1 Flickerwisp; +1 Path to Exile, +2 Rest in Peace, +1 Council's Judgment
Sneak & Show
-2 Mirran Crusader, -4 Swords to Plowshares; +1 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Seal of Cleansing, +1 Sword of War and Peace,
MUD
-4 Mother of Runes, -2 Swords to Plowshares; +1 Path to Exile, +1 Seal of Cleansing, +2 Council's Judgment, +2 Cataclysm
Pox
-1 Stoneforge Mystic, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, -4 Swords to Plowshares; +1 Path to Exile, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Seal of Cleansing, +1 Brimaz, +2 Council's Judgment
Goblins
-1 Flickerwisp, -1 Vryn Wingmare, -1 Mangara of Corondor; +1 Path to Exile, +1 Brimaz, +1 Sword of War and Peace
Reanimator
-2 Stoneforge Mystic, -2 Mirran Crusader, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, -1 Swords to Plowshares; +1 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Relic of Progenitus, +2 Rest in Peace, +2 Council's Judgment
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benke
I run a similar list with some changes specially in the sideboard. I posted it some pages ago in this thread. I disagree with you in some points of the sideboard plan. I am going to talk about what to side out basically because as I said I have a bit different board and I never have played with some cards like Cleasing or Law:
- Miracles: I side out the full set of StP because I do not want dead draws. I want more and more gas to rebuild the field after a Terminus. I have CJ and Needles/Revokers for Izzet Staticaster that, in addition, is a marginal singleton of their boards, and have Ratchet Bomb and CJ for Monastery Mentor. Even with him, you can race with your flyers. I run SoWaP in the sideboard for this issue. So for these reasons, I do not want to side out too many creatures as you propose. I side out a white land too (Flagstones instead of a Plains to avoid Blood Moon) because I do not want to eat more lands than necessary.
- D&T: I think you should run all Needles in your list to close the game in your favor. It is really important when your opponent draws a key card of the matchup to which you have no access at the moment (Mother, Vial, Jitte).
- Cloudpost: I side out all Thalias in the deck because they generate a ton of mana with relatively little. They are useless when you opponent have a couple of Cloudpost in play.
- Lands: I suggest you to play all Thalias here. My favourite plan is to get they just can play Loam on each of their turns and have to pass turn. That way they lose the tempo of the game loaming and while you are racing him. So you have to be aggresive playing Wastelands and do not waste your time with StP... Usually they are really useless because they have the capacity of put Marit Lage token on each turn when they want to win and have all stuff down, so you do not have enough StP to survive and if they only can put Marit Lage token once, you are recognizing that you lost because you cannot race 20 more lifes... And it is another matchup in which is a dead draw. Apart from Fire, Explorations are crucial for the gameplan I propose too.
- BUG Delver: I think you should keep in a couple of Phyrexian Revoker and play Needle instead of one of them because of sweepers like Charm or Deluge.
- RUG Delver: Against them I prefer side out SoFaI over a Flickerwisp because it is probable that without Stoneforge you cannot play it, and often is the least equipment you want to search here. In addition, I would not side in Law here. I do not consider it necessary.
- [/B]Shardless BUG[/B]: I would side in both Cataclysm and CJ of course. I would not side out Revoker and Wisps. Flickerwisp is fundamental to recycle your Batterskull and play over a Null Rod or avoid a spot removal or sweeper to a key creature as Crusader is. Against them and Jund I side out all Thalias in the deck because they are full of sweepers and you cannot tax them because they have a solid manabase, that added to their card advantage makes that they play a land per turn, and they have DRS to reaffirm their manabase. Thalias are only useful to chumpblock Goyfs that usually are really big in this kind of matchups. I want all Flickerwisp in against those midrange decks full of hate cards.
- [/B]Burn[/B]: I would side in Council's Judgment because of Vortex and Bridge.
- [/B]Omnitell[/B]: Do not play Cataclysms. They are really bad here. Do not listen Craig Wescoe in this aspect please :tongue:. I would play Council's Judgment because added to Canonist or Thalia could be useful to exile Omniscience when he passes the turn. And I would play Needle for fetchlands too (Delta or Strand). Same against Storm: only for fetchlands practically (Delta basically in this case and probably Tarn too).
- Elves: Thalias are pretty bad. I would play CJ for Needles, Null Rod or Progenitus.
- Infect: Crusader provides a lot of preassure so I would not side it out. Same for Avenger, that provides preassure and a block for Nexus at the same time. I would not side out SoFaI, take Skull instead.
- Reanimator: I would take out a couple of Stoneforge Mystic plus Jitte because I do not think you need any equipment here to win, so I would keep 2 Mystic with SoFaI and Skull. Keep beaters that do not consume mana as Mystic does. Play Needle for Deltas and Griselbrand ability.
When I side in Needles for fetchlands (specially combo matchups obviously) it is because I have more dead cards maindeck than the number of useful cards in my sideboard so I bet for this way to tax. If you have sufficient knowledge, you will be amazed with the things you will do with this. I think I left nothing. I think I would explain better this kind of things if I had a better english :frown:. If you have questions make them please! Same tips for NeckBird of course! I think we should make a common sideboard guide for the thread as others have.
Hi @ll,
I am very happy with my RW Death Taxes deck but in the last few days i got the idea to play a third colour. I have no idea if it works and if it is an improvement. I will try tomorrow in our weekly play round. Here´s my brew:
Imperial Taxes (Human Tribal :smile:)
Maindeck:
2 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Marsh Flats
3 Flooded Strand
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Flickerwisp
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Mother of Runes
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Mirran Crusader
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Æther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Σ 60
Sideboard:
2 Sudden Demise
3 Rest in Peace
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Council´s Judgment
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Containment Priest
2 Cataclysm
Σ 15
The manabase is really greedy now :smile:
I don´t know if mana acceleration is the right way or may black would be better with Dark Confidant. I will give you feedback in the next days.
Any thoughts by the other DNT players?
Cheers.
Keep Taxing.
For those who are wondering whether or not "vial" should be kept in against Jund:
We have playtested the MU quite a sheer amount and definitely, Vial x3 can be sided out. You want as much as creature density as possible.
My two cents.
Black_Diamond, I've tested various 3c versions before. I think the manabase can handle it, I just don't actually know if there's a payoff card. The only truly powerful non-WR human is Dark Confidant and it feels kinda redundant w/ Recruiters / makes us even softer to thinks like Burn.
So, has anybody tested Eldrazi Displacer yet?
Imho, it's way too mana-intensive to be any good - and I tried it in a modified Hierarch build (with some Brushlands for getting more C) which has tons of mana. Most of the times, it's a vanilla 3/3 that lacks board impact - and that's NOT where we want to be.
I enjoyed Warping Wail out of the sideboard, though. But I don't think we have the mana for that without Painlands.
I'm still waiting to get my copies of OGW cards, but I will be experimenting with WW, ED and Sea Gate Wreckage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
When you guys are testing Sea Gate Wreckage I am specifically curious how it compares to Horizon Canopy. It has a higher ceiling, lower floor, but overall plays a somewhat similar role in the deck (trying to stretch some reach out of the manabase).
I think Sea Gate Wreckage might suffer from similiar issues. You can't really support it with our 8 mana denial lands alone and you also have to respect the count of 15 white sources. The only option I see is going up in the land count if that is your cup of tea.Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
My personal list is running:Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
3x Karakas
2x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Cavern of Souls
2x Sea Gate Wreckage
7x Plains
I have been consistently able to use SGW in this deck and it usually wins me the game. Drawing one to two cards extra when you're in the grindy matches of Miracles or Shardless is significant. Also I may be wrong, but I always find that there is a point where "taxing" the opponents lands is no longer efficient and you rather just draw gas.
I'm still working on the balance of lands because I feel that I am currently colorless heavy (Caverns technically could be both colorless and a white source). So I'll report back as I play more.
Side note: Warping Wail is the real deal. Great in the mirror match, great against the cheaty decks, great against fair decks.
Only 12 white sources + Cavern? That sounds incredibly risky. E.g. SFM activations become alot harder like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinTurkey
Agreed on Warping Wail, though.