[Deck] Goblins

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Originally Posted by bakofried

Eh, seems like the danger of cool things. It's as mana intensive as Jitte, but not quite as game-breaking. If you're looking at Collar, I'd say look at Jitte first.

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Well, although I can't say wether this is the danger of cool thing there is one thing in know for sure: Basilisk Collar and Jitte don't do the same things.

* Collar costs :1:, jitte costs 2 colorless to play
* Jitte doesn't kill creatures directly ( if find deathtouch much more intersting than lifelink)
* Collar doesn't kill our opponent's Jitte

I see Collar as a removal; let me explain why.
Stingscourger costs 2 mana, Gempalm Incinerator costs 2 mana (at least for cycling), Warren Weirding costs 2 mana. Seems like the most frequently played removal in Goblins cost 2 mana.
Basilisk Collar has equipment costs of 2 mana. In comparison to the other removal its has an obvious drawbacks but also an obvious strength!
Stinger, GI and WW are GOBLINS and can thus be tutored for and reduced in costs. Collar lacks those abilities.
BUT Stinger, GI and WW are one-way removal. They can be used to destroy only one creature (and not every creature will fall prey to them) while Collar can hit more than one creature. For the cost of 2 mana it transforms ANY goblin into a removal (Sharpshooter and Instigator are just the peak).

However, I will just try it out and let you know how it works out.

Here's the list:

//LANDS [22]
4 Wastelands
16 Mountains
2 Chrome Mox

//CORE [25]
-1 Piledriver

//OTHERS [13]
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
2 Basilisk Collar

3 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain

//SIDEBOARD [15]
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer

@ Gobolord: very rough and forward list!

I agree with you in testing Basilisk Collar. I think it's > Jitte, cause of it costs less! Mana is all this Deck needs. Ur list is fast, u wanne be fast, so u don't have the mana and time (mostly 2 rounds) for playing and euip jitte.

BC -> arrives T2 and still equip - even later u can do all(play & equip) in the same turn
Jitte -> arrives T2 and MUST wait for T3 to equip. By equipping, there is only time for an Onedrop like Lackey -> slow

In the end, my only questen to u is, why are u playing mox over Simian Spirit Guide? I think its a bit better.
- no stifle
- makes Lackey Daze proof
- still a creature for beatdown

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Originally Posted by d0ner

@ Gobolord: very rough and forward list!

I agree with you in testing Basilisk Collar. I think it's > Jitte, cause of it costs less! Mana is all this Deck needs. Ur list is fast, u wanne be fast, so u don't have the mana and time (mostly 2 rounds) for playing and euip jitte.

BC -> arrives T2 and still equip - even later u can do all(play & equip) in the same turn
Jitte -> arrives T2 and MUST wait for T3 to equip. By equipping, there is only time for an Onedrop like Lackey -> slow

In the end, my only questen to u is, why are u playing mox over Simian Spirit Guide? I think its a bit better.
- no stifle
- makes Lackey Daze proof
- still a creature for beatdown

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Chrome Mox provides you with mana for more than one turn.
* Daze has never been much of a problem to us and Chrome Mox is just as good in dogging it.
* Stifle a Chrome Mox? Yes please! There are much more important targets for Stifle (Wasteland, Lackey, Instigator, Piledriver, Matron, Ringleader, SGC). if your opp plays Stifle on Chrome Mox you can just shake his hand and tell him that he is an idiot (like I did with the Canadian Thresh player who sided out Stifle because "Goblins simply have no targets for Stifle")
* I don't think we need another 2/2 bear when we already have 30+ (goblin-)creatures.

If there is any deck can afford the card-disadvantage from Chrome Mox then its Goblins.

GoboLord is right I think. Mox Chrome is way better than SSG because it lasts. And it's usually a T1 play (If you play mountain -> mox, Daze is dead).

SSG can come for pure speed. It's fine if you play 22+ lands, as he can accelerate some cards (a T1 Warren Instigator is scary). But can't replace a Mox, that works as a land, most of time.

Back on 2 topics:

1 - What do you guys think are the best hate cards against Junk, in R, Rb and Rg builds?

2 - How would you spend 7 slots of your SB if you were to spend them against Storm combo (mainly for TES and Spiral Tide)?

4x Chalice of the void is REALLY strong vs both of them. (1 for tide and 0/1 for storm), 3x pyroblast/reb, pyrostatic pillar, mindbreak trap, etc are all ok as well. but that sure seems like ALOT of hate for combo.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Back on 2 topics:

1 - What do you guys think are the best hate cards against Junk, in R, Rb and Rg builds?

2 - How would you spend 7 slots of your SB if you were to spend them against Storm combo (mainly for TES and Spiral Tide)?

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1- Nothing much. Burn if you side it, but Pyro is weak due to their discard. Maybe tinkerer for Mox Diamond and Top. That's about it. Stupid midrange decks. Weirding's good.

2- 4 Chalice, 3 Thorn of Amethyst

Cabal Therapy is good against Junk. I haven't tested it too much against storm, but I can't see it being useless against them. Since it's in my SB, i would side it in against either deck.

If splashing black, bring in Perish against Junk. Many peopl don't think it does enough in this matchup, but I like it a lot so I recommend that you at least test it. Warren Weirding is alright too.

If you're splashing green, bring in your enchantment removal against Junk. Plague is the main reason why they are favorable in this matchup.

Mindbreak Trap is really good against inexperienced storm players, but dramatically worse against those who have mastered their decks. Depends on what kind of players you expect to face, i guess

REMOVED: Computer is dumb and double posted

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Back on 2 topics:

1 - What do you guys think are the best hate cards against Junk, in R, Rb and Rg builds?

2 - How would you spend 7 slots of your SB if you were to spend them against Storm combo (mainly for TES and Spiral Tide)?

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1)
R: Goblin Chieftain vs. Plague (your biggest problem imo) and maybe Relics if they are running 4x Goyfs + Knights (not worth it imo). Pyrokinesis works fairly well. Against any 3+ color decks, I've always wanted an excuse to play my secret tech, Thoughts of Ruin :D.

Rb: Cabal Therapy naming Plague. Perish and Death Mark work to a degree but I'll still side in Pyrokinesis before those two.

Rg: Nature's Claim/Krosan Grip vs. Plague. Tin Street to blow up Moxes and potentially Stoneforged equipment.

2)
- 4 Chalice of the Void - because playing combo hate on turn 1 while not losing tempo is a good thing.
- 3 Mindbreak Trap - because you may not survive long enough to see turn 2 to play Thorn, Chalice @ 1, Null Rod, etc.

If you are running Basilisk Collar, you could even consider Sparksmith. (It's no machine gun, but it can gain lots of life and kill just about anything with the collar and quite a few targets without the collar)

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Back on 2 topics:

1 - What do you guys think are the best hate cards against Junk, in R, Rb and Rg builds?

2 - How would you spend 7 slots of your SB if you were to spend them against Storm combo (mainly for TES and Spiral Tide)?

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1. I'm not really familiar with Junk but I understand that it plays Engineered Plague. I encountered plague last sunday (in affinity, I played mono red) and I was very happy with the 3 Boartusk Lieges (2 sb, 1 main) and my two chieftains main. That's enough for 1 plague, although I'm not sure about a second one. Atm I'm inclined to believe that The Lieges and Chieftains are better options than discard in Rb Goblins.

And you could put in Null Rod to shut down Mox Diamond and TOP and equipment if they run it. Null rod also works very well vs affinity, locks them out completely. If you play Rg just put in Krosan Grip combined with a few Chieftains/Lieges.

2. I encountered a sort of Spanish Inquisition/ belcher combo deck and I wish I would've put in chalice in my sb. And Null Rod is a good card if you want to lock down their 0-costing artifacts.

I have no experience playing against TES or Spiral Tide but I wonder if Chalice is an option. TES only plays 12 0 CC cards, Spiral Tide none. Does that warrant Chalice? And is it actually possible to have a chalice on 1 before they go off? If thats not the case then I don't think chalice is worth it. I take it they win game one. So we only have game 2 to have a chalice on 1 before their turn 2. Game 3 is in their favor again. Edit: I missed anotherday's reply (there's no time to get to turn 2). Do others concur?

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Originally Posted by anotherday

1)
R: Goblin Chieftain vs. Plague (your biggest problem imo) and maybe Relics if they are running 4x Goyfs + Knights (not worth it imo). Pyrokinesis works fairly well. Against any 3+ color decks, I've always wanted an excuse to play my secret tech, Thoughts of Ruin :D.

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Are you not better off running blood moon? :)

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Originally Posted by Nameless Two

If you are running Basilisk Collar, you could even consider Sparksmith. (It's no machine gun, but it can gain lots of life and kill just about anything with the collar and quite a few targets without the collar)

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Yeah...OR you could play Goblin Sharpshooter, which is a machine gun, can gain lots of life and kill just about anything with the collar and quite a few targets without the collar. Oh, and it´s a goblin :tongue:

Is there a reason nobody is playing 4xMogg Fanatic with GSZ->Arbor and/or Hierarch being in every deck with green right now?

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Originally Posted by Nelis

(there's no time to get to turn 2). Do others concur?:)

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Erm...bullshit ôO
Combo decks don't go off unprotected on turn 2 because they are afraid running into Mindbreak Trap. Plus, the turn2-kill is very unlikely anyways because they side out mana-producing cards for protection in form of CHants, Bounce etc.)
Seriously, along with Wasteland and Port we usually have 3-4 turns to kill them (or do enough damage that Ad Nauseam the route is too risky). That however is true for TES and ANT. Chalice @ 0 doesn't hit as many cards as Chalice @ 1 but I'd still recommend setting the first one @0 because we want to play a Piledriver or Instigator on turn 2.
Spring Tide and Solidarity are different. Spring Tide is hardly goes off with less than 3 lands. Solidarity on the other hand has much more disruption but want to go off as late as possible. Against both decks Chalice @ 1 is the right choice.

On Scatmans question:

I'd run 4 Chalice and 3 Mindbreak Trap.
Chalice is effective against every combodeck (ANT/TES/Belcher @0, High Tide combo @1). Mindbreak Trap is the ultimate card if you want to diversiyfy your hate. If your hatepieces are all permanents (let's say 4 Chalice, 3 Thorn) 1 Hurkyll's Recall is enough to get rid of those. Plus, If ANT and TES lose to Chalice in game 2 they usually board additional Bounce-cards for Orim's Chant. Then (with Trap) you can completely fuck them.
Springtide and Solidarity are much less vulerable to Mindbrealk Trap (but you should still board them!). Springtide has counters while Solidarity can just do things in response to Trap (e.g. in response on Trap untap all lands, then Cunning Wish @ their own Mindbreak Trap and remove YOUR Trap from the stack). Both decks are well-prepared for artifact-combo-hate anyways. Mono-U must run bounce in every form because they don't have discard or Chants

Graveyard hate is very effective against ANT and Solidarity, too. In ANT you shut down Ill-Gotten Gains and to lesser extend Cabal Ritual (which is still important because you steel them BB). In Solidarity you block the best Cantrip they have: Flash of Insight

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Is there a reason nobody is playing 4xMogg Fanatic with GSZ->Arbor and/or Hierarch being in every deck with green right now?

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Yeah. Hierarchs and Dryard Arbor (and the deck that run them) are usually not a problematic MU. Postboard Perish should be enough if you worry about those decks.

What other options do we have for blue hate (merfolk)? REB is all I can think of. Boil doesn't cut it.

Current SB:
4x Chalice of the Void (storm/belcher/ect.)
3x Perish (Progenitus/zoo/ect.)
3x Planar Void (dredge)
1x Goblin Tinkerer
1x Goblin Sharpshooter (mirror)

I'm trying to decide my last 3, currently 3x Pyrokinesis, which helps against folk, more so than REB, but I feel like I'm forgetting something.

I'm not going to run Jitte or Collar. Maybe run 3x Engineered Plague myself? Could also take out elves in Natural Order decks. I don't know, I'm not certain.

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Originally Posted by pater

What other options do we have for blue hate (merfolk)? REB is all I can think of. Boil doesn't cut it.

Current SB:
4x Chalice of the Void (storm/belcher/ect.)
3x Perish (Progenitus/zoo/ect.)
3x Planar Void (dredge)
1x Goblin Tinkerer
1x Goblin Sharpshooter (mirror)

I'm trying to decide my last 3, currently 3x Pyrokinesis, which helps against folk, more so than REB, but I feel like I'm forgetting something.

I'm not going to run Jitte or Collar. Maybe run 3x Engineered Plague myself? Could also take out elves in Natural Order decks. I don't know, I'm not certain.

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You could put in Plague. At least you wont be 2for1'ed like Pyrokinesis if it's countered. You could board it in vs Zoo as well naming Cat (Steppe Lynx) or Human (Lavamancer, Knight of the Reliquary). But I doubt if it's really necessary to board in if you also play Perish. MWM and Gempalm is usually enough to take care of Lavamancer. I don't think its worth playing Engineered Plague.

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Originally Posted by pater

What other options do we have for blue hate (merfolk)? REB is all I can think of. Boil doesn't cut it.

Current SB:
4x Chalice of the Void (storm/belcher/ect.)
3x Perish (Progenitus/zoo/ect.)
3x Planar Void (dredge)
1x Goblin Tinkerer
1x Goblin Sharpshooter (mirror)

I'm trying to decide my last 3, currently 3x Pyrokinesis, which helps against folk, more so than REB, but I feel like I'm forgetting something.

I'm not going to run Jitte or Collar. Maybe run 3x Engineered Plague myself? Could also take out elves in Natural Order decks. I don't know, I'm not certain.

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What about Pyroblast? ;)

Is it really necesary to devote slots in the SB specifically to Merfolk? I figured the MU should be pretty easy anyways - apply Vialcontrol by boarding in Tinkerer und additional removal in the form of Sharpshooter and you should be fine.
Anyways, I never leave my house without 3 Pyrokinesis and I honestly don't see a reason to do so. It's just that good against Tribal in general and can also come in against Zoo.

Ok, so I took everyones notes in consideration.
I'm trying to build a SB to fight mainly TES/Spiral Tide, Junk, Merfolk and Zoo
The way it looks right now is this:
4 Chalice (combo)
3 MB Trap (combo)
3 Knesis (Folk and Zoo)
3 Perish (Zoo and maybe Junk)
2 Liege (everything I guess...)

I'm trying to add 1-2 ReBs to fight Merfolk and combo better, but am not sure what to take out.
Maybe I'll take 1 Perish out, and then maybe 1 Chalice, since ReBs would come in against combo too...

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Ok, so I took everyones notes in consideration.
I'm trying to build a SB to fight mainly TES/Spiral Tide, Junk, Merfolk and Zoo
The way it looks right now is this:
4 Chalice (combo)
3 MB Trap (combo)
3 Knesis (Folk and Zoo)
3 Perish (Zoo and maybe Junk)
2 Liege (everything I guess...)

I'm trying to add 1-2 ReBs to fight Merfolk and combo better, but am not sure what to take out.
Maybe I'll take 1 Perish out, and then maybe 1 Chalice, since ReBs would come in against combo too...

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If you dont have 4 Chieftain in MD you can replace Lieges with Chieftains (cause Perish and Liege crashes!). You should also consider a 1-of artifact removal (Tinkerer or Tuktuk in your case). As Nidd said: destroying opponent's Vials is king!