About the GG requirement on titan: I quite frequently use candelabra to get the second G, I play 4 candleabras though
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About the GG requirement on titan: I quite frequently use candelabra to get the second G, I play 4 candleabras though
My teammate has piloted this deck at our local events the last two weeks to not-impressive results. Despite having watched many of my games for several months, He mentioned that knowing what hands to keep versus which matchups was very difficult. He mentioned the hands he kept in rounds he lost and I immediately told him why they weren't keepable, but it wasn't as simple as "keep on X, don't on X."Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtreme
Unfortunately the only way to figure out what to keep and how to play your first 3 pivotal turns just comes from large amounts of playtesting. This isn't RUG or Maverick, where you have maybe 3-4 real choices the entire game. You'll have 10+ before turn 5, all of which will determine if the game is even winnable. Before keeping you have to consider a huge amount of variables, including the fact that the deck mulligans well.
I feel like this is one of the reasons why people feel compelled to change the deck, since they find that they want to dumb it down to make it simpler. The deck's complexity is why people have such a hard time successfully hating on it. I suggest giving it a real go instead of looking at early goldfishing with an innovator's skeptical eye.
Rock lee: Have you tried out the "new" monoG-version, and whats your thoughts about it in comparison to your GU-version?
I feel really awkward about cutting a candelabra, but it seems 3 might be the right number here.
Another note: I've truggled alot against a first/second turn chalice for 1. A lot of our spells are 1-costing, and against e.g. MUD that lands an early chalice there are high chances of loosing. Due to my metagame I have 2 krosan grips in the SB that help out alot though. I realise this is a problem only for the monoG-version, as repeal takes care of chalice.
which green list are you referring to? The pre-mental misstep build? the one Meddling mage is running? Or the suggested build with Eureka in it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtreme
Also repeal can't bounce chalice @ 1, the great tragedy, and one of the reasons why the deck hinges on trinket mage in that matchup, to get you EE.
I definitely wouldn't feel bad about cutting candelabras. Running 4 is only for a very aggressive style build. The more defensively you play, the less candelabras you can run. I think the lowest I went to in the green build was 2, and 1 in blue. Granted, I play very very defensively.
That's true.. so chalice is a problem either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Im refering to the list meddlingmage is running, as it's nearly identical to the one I have sleeved atm with only differences in # candelabras and o.stone, which we already discussed.
On a sidenote; I finally got my hands on a tabernacle, so its going in the SB :)
Really? I prefer to run Tabernacle in the maindeck. Its a silver bullet against some decks and against others, it just slows them down so you can set up comfortably.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtreme
I've found both glacial chasm and maze of ith to be a must-have in the MD. If there was alot of maverick in my meta I would probably MD the tabernacle, but as it stands, it's going in the SB. Against an unknown opponent I think maze is better, as it stops a single tarmogoyf or equipped creature, when tabernacle is better against hordesQuote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
I guess it comes down to preference since both are arguably powerful cards. In a really heavy aggro meta it could be worth while to run both + chasm in MD.
Also, Maze (+Vesuva on Maze) + Candelabra can go a long way ;)
A very good point. If the opponents creatures get out of hand, then go for a second maze with Vesuva. I have yet to try Maze over Tabernacle in the maindeck though. I've found that if you can get it down something like 2nd turn, then you are almost ensured that the opponent is going to develop his board really slowly. It works especially well when the opponent is trying to play their stuff off mana dorks and they can only muster an attack with 1 dude, sometimes 2 after playing on few lands. I can see Maze being a good supplement to Tabernacle in addition to being great on its own. What about Maze over Chasm? Or is Chasm just the oh shit button you always want around just in case? I almost exclusively search for Tabernacle against aggro decks as like the 2nd or 3rd land of choice. Chasm I rarely play unless I'm really in the shitter and need an out, but I've found that doesn't happen all that often if you go for early Tabernacle.
Sylvan scrying is a great tutor for the amount of mana spent and in a version of the deck that thrives off consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtreme
The version I listed was very similar, but ran 27 lands instead of 23 and not sylvan scryings, but essentially our Green lists are identical.
Maindecking needles is a meta choice and if you expect heavy maverick then go for it. I personally feel that the great strength of the mono-green deck is Primeval titan, so I would run 4 of them, but I could see going less of them if all you're fighting is RUG, which runs maindeck stifles and snares, both of which heavily slow you down.
I haven't tested his idea of Eureka, but I like the concept. Eureka, Tabernacle and Candelabra in one deck would make for one HELL of a cost!
Lastly, cutting candelabras I touched on, but I wouldn't go under 2 in the mono green version, and going under 3 should have serious metagame consideration since the mono Green version is very heavily oriented towards stabilizing crucible/chasm or powering out one of 7-8 high cmc game enders.
My biggest critcism of Mono Green was that it stalls out around turn 3-4, whereas the Blue version picks up its stride at this timeframe. Since I prefer to play more control-y, the blue version precipitates similar play.
I loved playing the Green version though, and I don't discredit it at all, but your sideboard must be VERY full of combo answers, and you scoop to hivemind.
I have the same sense. 3 of Candelabra seems to be ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtreme
Eye of Ugin, Glacial Chasm, Maze of Ith, and – allow me - 4 Vesuva and Bojuka Bog are lands that do not produce mana. So, we do not need 1 more land that does not produce mana. Between Maze of Ith and Tabernacle, Maze is better in 8 of the 10 games. Tabernacle is useful in Goblins, Affinity, and Dredge. Generally in decks that use more creatures than lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
Agree +++++Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtreme
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Rock I really love your posts.
Needles seems to be the weakest card in the deck. Even to my eyes, that I use it a lot, and I know that has saved my ass many times. But its not. If I decide to drop Needles, I would have problems with Wastelands, Knights, and Planeswalkers.
Now, about the idea of Eureka... I believe that 3 of them, are ok. No more no less. But... with how many creatures ? 3 Titans and 3 Eldrazi ? 4 Titans and 3 Eldrazi? 4 Titans and 4 Eldrazi ? And replace what ? Its hard decision. There is an other card that does the same job, and some times with better results. Its Defense of the Heart. With DotH a) is not necessary to use more that 6 creatures b) You don't give a chance to opponent to put anything on the board c) Has same mana cost but with 1G, and d) we can use Forbidden Orchard to blackmail the opponent. And something really interesting... Forbidden Orchard is useful against Hive Mind. Under circumstances we have any color of mana to pay the Pacts.
For DotH I would drop Candelabras to 2, and drop 2 Needles. 3 slots are fine. We can have an alternative way to win, without interested about Wastelands.
You've come a long ways Meddling Mage, I have not tested DotH, but it is worth considering for sure. I will do some testing of it, despite not owning any DotH's, the idea is very intriguing to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeddlingMageGR
The current build I've been testing to amazing results is a Minimal-Blue list, running what I feel to be the pivotal Blue cards in the deck atm. Trinket mage could be considered, but these 8 are the core of the vital Blue.
// Lands
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ZEN] Forest (1a)
1 [ZEN] Island (2a)
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
// Creatures
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
// Spells
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [10E] Sylvan Scrying
2 [ROE] All Is Dust
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [TSP] Trickbind
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
I could see builds that went higher All is Dust or higher candelabras depending on a combo versus creature meta, but honestly, If you expect a combo meta, don't play this variant, instead maindeck flusterstorms.
I'll report back after some DOTH testing. It is VERY curious that with DoTH you can beat hive mind if you sideboard Platinum Angel and managed to have given them 3 dudes before your untap step with pacts on the stack.
This list seems really strong. It has the same possibilities to hardcast the fatties but has additionally the cheat of show and tell. Will definetly try this out
After about 30 games of testing Defense of the Heart Maindeck in the minimal blue list I posted, which already had Show & Tell, I found it rather obviously redundant. I did have some rather hilarious wins against hive mind, with me tutoring in platinum angel in response to multiple "lose the game" triggers incoming after showing in Defense of the Heart. However, I don't think any variant can afford to run orchard on the main without doing something like also maindecking moment's peace, which is a great adjunct to DotH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtreme
If you expect heavy Maverick/Aggro/Dredge/Rug, this is an incredible avenue to pursue. The more you stress Defense of the Heart, the better Maze of Ith becomes and the weaker Tabernacle becomes. Tabernacle already played relatively poorly with Moment's peace, so I could see DotH being the tipping point of running Tabernacle or not, that is if you even run Tabernacle. It is also worth mentioning that DotH allows you to replace your Glacial Chasms in upkeep via Primeval Titan. This is great because it lets you not pay for chasm, and replace a new chasm without having to add cum upkeep counters, thus maximizing your Chasm longevity. This could also allow you to get glimmerposts to pay for chasm. So Glacial Chasm becomes greatly improved with DotH, however finding room in the SB for both needle, DotH and chasm will be taxing, so a warped maindeck would likely have to result.
In addition to a "purist" Forbidden Orchard build with DotH, I mentioned that I also tried a blending of the build I have been testing with only 8 blue cards (repeal & Show & Tell) with DotH instead of a sweeper (All is Dust) and found the card lackluster when All is Dust would win me the game. However, after sideboarding it against GSZ or aggro decks, I found those matchups to become highly favorable post-siding. I opted to exchange these slots for my Needles & Tabernacle with the logic I have mentioned above, and also that with a wasteland-recurring deck I can always bring in extraction/faerie macabre as a sub-par but adequate out.
I am still not sure if this version is superior to a pithing needle & Tabernacle variant, but Moment's Peace & DotH attacks aggro in an avenue that they are not expecting, which could provide a strong position of confusion/transitional siding provided that decklists are not provided to opponents in the top 8/16 of the event you are attending.
TLDR: Jury is out, but DotH is interesting and seems better in the mono green build.
Pros:
another low-mana answer to pressure
Synergizes with many already present tutor kit targets and themes
Potential to rope-a-dope the opponent is huge.
Cons:
Gives a turn to respond to and must stabilize though glimmerpost lifegain, thus does not help when losing badly.
Qasali pridemage just laughs at it
Shut down by Teeg
Encourages a playstyle of them playing dudes, which is a dangerous line to walk.
Is there any build with Wurmcoil Engine? Does anyone have any test results?
Wurmcoil does nothing against your taxing matchups, which are combo and extremely fast aggro. Both are going to super overkill you the turn after you get to 7 mana on the draw, sometimes a turn before.Quote:
Originally Posted by dsck
Against your aggro matchups you need cards that will prevent them from wasting you out of the game within the first 2-3 turns. Thus sideboard cards are cards that slow them down or gum up them keeping on a hand of wastes. Pithing Needle, Tabernacle, Maze of Ith, Mind Harness or low mana answers like Defense of the Heart, letting you keep on basics and vesuvas.
Lastly, all of your dudes need to be able to effectively kill them in one swing, so Annihilator or Prim time tutors to make them viable Show & Tell targets, since you are accelerating them as well, often into a Knight of the Reliquary.
Lastly, I would usually prefer more kozileks over any other dudes, as under duress Kozilek will cost 8, which is barely a far cry from wurmcoil's 6 but will guarantee you the advantage.
Of course its redundant :) Not to say that these cards are contrary each other. To play Show and Tell you must include many creatures in the deck, just like you play it now : 4 Titans – 4 Eldrazi. DotH does not care about the amount of creatures. Even 1 is enough. DotH gives the possibility to reduce your creatures, and play more spells. In my mind I design a model similar to Show and Tell, but without S&T in mono-green version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Why that for ? Its not necessary to play both DotH and Moment's Peace in maindeck!!! Especially in Hive Mind, you dont need Moment's Peace at all. Hive Mind runs 0 creatures!!! The only creatures may have, are the tokens from Orchand. And you must be super fast. Firstly to find Orchant and give him 3 creatures, and secondly to find and cast DotH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
I agree about Platinum Angel.
Agree 1000+++ DotH doesn't let opponent to cast creatures before destroys it. So, Maze of Ith works great against 1-2 creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
This small combo is well known in mono green version, with Exploration and Crucible of Worlds. I have never pay Glacial Chasm more than 2 times :) Most of them, none.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
I can imagine that. All is Dust is non-negotiable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
what is “jury”? I lost you....Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
For Teeg we have Karakas. So, no problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
You show & tell in the DotH, with them having 3 dudes, and cropping for a orchard and candelabra is a super easy way to give them a ton of dudes.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeddlingMageGR
My breakdowns were just saying that the blue version doesn't need DoTH, and that DoTH is mostly a green version accelerant. I personally feel that the version I posted recently is significantly stronger than the Green version, so that is where my focus has been as-of late.
Thus far I have had incredible success with the deck. I have been playing for over a month now at the local shop off the winnings from my first entry and then some, with the only losses I've had being based off poor choices where I could have won.
What's your idea on miracle walk for this deck? This deck seems like its able to hardcast it as well as use SDT to set it up for its miracle cost, and the 12-post configuration could really use as many extra land drops it can get I think. I don't have enough experience with the deck yet but would like to know what you think of it.
I've been looking at it and thinking "did they really print this card? it is retarded with brainstorm and top..."Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
I will definitely do some testing with Temporal Mastery for sure. I'm not sure if it 100% belongs, but this is the only deck out there that will be able to hard cast it for sure.
It figures that once I settle on a solid decklist, wizards just blends it all up into a blur of creativity.
::EDIT:: Before this thread delves into Timewalk.eldrazi I thought I should mention that my results of DoTH and my 4-slot sideboard testing against aggro/maverick are now complete.
The three options were as follows:
- 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, 3 Pithing needle
- 2 Moment's Peace, 2 Defense of the Heart
- 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, 3 Cursed Totem
For my minimal-blue version, the 3rd option proved itself to be the strongest by far, as my matchup against Maverick was not improved greatly by having DotH, and they know how to deal with Needle, while Cursed Totem completely shuts down their recursion and explosiveness. Needles in multiples are better than Multiples Cursed totem, but Needle with tabernacle is not impressive, while cursed totem and tabernacle is a blowout.
Most importantly, cursed totem stops elves dead, which are the only combo deck you are completely dry to post side. This gives you a 3-combo sideboard option of Flusterstorm, Trickbind, Cursed Totem. These three cover every combo deck out there sufficiently. The numbers of each of these 3 can vary, but the overlapping between the three is comprehensive.