Starcity's new buy list - Consequences?

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Originally Posted by edgewalker

Is it me, or is the extent to which wizards/hasbro/whoever is protecting collectors is, at the root, arbitrary? I remember a time when I could buy a birds of paradise and a taiga for the same price. (actually, the taiga was 2 dollars cheaper) That doesn't seem to be the case anymore since Birds have been reprinted into oblivion and taiga was put on the no reprint list. Why? Again the distinction they draw between which cards deserve to maintain their scarcity (and therefore their value) are, to me at least, not so obvious. Likewise, what makes the Legacy investor/collector any more important than the T2/Extended collector/investor. There seems to be a lot of concern about the Legacy collectors cards, but what about the other two? Is it because the t2/extended cards rotate? What about survival of the fittest? Clearly the powers at be don't care too much about the collectors. The argument in favor of collectors seems very nonsensical because there is no clear distinction between what cards deserve scarcity preservation and what cards don't.

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Back in the very early days of the game, there was a very strong backlash the first time cards were reprinted outside of the few that were in the core set - this was Chronicles. In response, Wizards promised to never reprint rares or uncommons outside of the core set again.

They eventually realized that this policy wasn't necessary (or at least, was not necessary anymore), but they're sticking more or less to the promise that was made from Arabian Nights - Urza's.

Birds gets reprinted because it was in (and originally came from) the core set.

A bunch of more or less reasonable decisions over a long period of time can end up looking pretty arbitrary.

Double post.

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

Arzar: Do you suggest that the united states government fund its expenditures by printing more money?

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Nope. I'm pretty sure the expenditures of the United States government have little to do with a fucking card game.

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Originally Posted by Metalwalker

Aren't we already doing so? That's why we've been so screwed. Lol

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Probably. At the very least, the dollar hasn't been backed by actual gold in a long time.

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Can they just control price? or set a limit on price?

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Wizards can't set a limit on pricing of dual lands and stuff because you can't control the secondary market unless you're demanding an outrageously high price on each card and literally own every single copy because plenty of people would buy u. sea at $80 right now. If it was priced at one grand for each revised underground sea then there would be almost no one willing to pay so that's when wizards can control the price as long as they have a monopoly on all the duals. But they aren't scooping up dual lands themselves why would they other than for the purpose of the treasure packs for zendikar first print run and that itself was made to move more product because people would be thrilled to open a u. sea out of a zendikar pack.

Collectors are a very very VERY small minority of the people who play magic right now. The game is just getting more and more popular every month and has been steadily growing for at least 5 years now. And the point remains that reprinting dual lands wouldn't significantly drop the original ABUR dual lands rather the reprinted versions would be worth a lot less. See: birds of paradise beta v. M11 copy. I would infinitely prefer to play with white bordered revised edition versions of dual lands than newly reprinted versions because of how hard they are to find compared to the new versions and to show I had gotten into the format before it was more popular than standard.

Also, shocklands are strictly worse than ABUR duals. If everyone ran shocklands, aggro would rule the format. Zoo doesn't care about losing 2 life to a shockland when the opponent also is losing 2 to a shock because then they got a 0 mana shock that cost them 0 cards and 0 mana while they progress their gameplan with turn 1 lackey/nacatl/steppe lynx/kird ape/cursecatcher/vial and the opponent is just sitting there taking 2 off of all their shocklands. RDW would be sooooooo good like someone else said; sweet, you just shocked yourself with that land? I'll shock you again a few turns later with a price of progress backed up with multiple 3 damage burn spells. Seems like I win.

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Originally Posted by cdr

Back in the very early days of the game, there was a very strong backlash the first time cards were reprinted outside of the few that were in the core set - this was Chronicles. In response, Wizards promised to never reprint rares or uncommons outside of the core set again.

They eventually realized that this policy wasn't necessary (or at least, was not necessary anymore), but they're sticking more or less to the promise that was made from Arabian Nights - Urza's.

Birds gets reprinted because it was in (and originally came from) the core set.

A bunch of more or less reasonable decisions over a long period of time can end up looking pretty arbitrary.

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I agree...to a point. I think the multitude of UNreasonable decisions have proved a lack of precedent. They were/are very loose with their previous rulings of what to reprint (functional or otherwise) and what not to, I don't see why they should come down hard and fast now.

None of that also addresses why the powers at be care about legacy collectors more than standard, since many standard collections rival the collections of legacy players. (Currently JTMS and previously baneslayer) Obviously they care enough about the about the game to where the value of collections doesn't affect their banning decisions. So in this instance, the powers that be care about the actual play of the game/the players more than the collectors. Why doesn't this transfer over to other instances?

Wizards told us they decided they care very strongly about sticking to the reserved list, but they haven't ever told us why. Aaron Forsythe (I believe it was) said they weren't allowed to tell us why either.

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Originally Posted by cdr

Wizards told us they decided they care very strongly about sticking to the reserved list, but they haven't ever told us why. Aaron Forsythe (I believe it was) said they weren't allowed to tell us why either.

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The collectors were going to sue, from what I understand.

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Originally Posted by Tha Gunslinga

The collectors were going to sue, from what I understand.

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Yep. Power too em IMO.

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Originally Posted by Tha Gunslinga

The collectors were going to sue, from what I understand.

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That's the most common rumor and you'd be in more of a position to know than I would, but no one has ever said anything on the record (or ever will, probably).

I hope that the "collectors would sue" thing is precisely just a rumor, because otherwise Magic - or rather Eternal formats - is/are prevented from reaching its full potential because someone somewhere doesn't want their collection devalued.

There's more than one quote from Richard Garfield that says he wants the game to reach the level of Poker or Chess. This will never ever ever happen as long as we have formats where "bishops" cost $50. I can buy a deck of playing cards for 2 bucks on the corner. A chess set can be acquired for probably as much, or at worst around $5-10 just to play the game, even though both Poker and Chess have 'fancy variants' which can costs hundreds or thousands to acquire - the game itself doesn't actually cost a thing. Eternal formats fail that comparison time and again.

I'm in the camp where I would pretty much give two shits if the handful of powerful playsets I have (Force of Wills, dual lands, etc) fell to $5 a pop or less, as long as it meant people in my area could feasibly get into the game. The weird random tangent of "shocks vs duals" just illustrates the point of how this game doesn't really tolerate 1-offs; Stomping Grounds will never be Taiga, and until WotC can fix the problem inherent to not only that situation but the state of the game, then maybe they can push it into that 'timeless, priceless' place that Garfield talks about, that Chess place, that transcendent place where the entry fee is low and the learning curve is life-long. There is no fucking way that is happening right now, and Starcity doesn't help much. I despise it when I walk into a card store and I ask for some jank - even just some outdated piece of tech - and the dude behind the counter goes like "Weeelllllll, let's see, we have _____ priced at 35 cents, but that can't be right, let's see where Star City Games has it priced at". This happens to me ALL THE TIME. WHO THE FUCK CARES how much SCG is selling something for, especially where I live (the Midwest) where it's a matter of a few hours travel to find the nearest non-Standard event; just sell me the card at what it's worth regionally and continue to make all your money off of stupid stupid Type 2 junk. Apparently we can't do that anymore.

Let's remember the Sea Drake experiment. I purposefully drove the price of Sea Drakes up to net a gain. (yes, I am that guy). Yes, I bought every single one that was on the market to drive the price up. I personally think they are taking a hint from that. It was fairly famous. It was a good idea, you have to admit, the experiment was a success. I drove that price up from $25 to $75 virtually overnight. No one could beat my bidding on Ebay. I would buy them up and place the price what I wanted to justify what i spent on them. I eventually cashed out and showed what was possible. SCG is doing the same on a larger scale. I really thing they are doing it. they almost have as much of a capability as I did on popular cards.

Also take for instance I tried the same thing on Mana Drain. It was one expensive card to be doing that on. People came out in droves to take advantage of it. I couldn't keep up. Good job me picking an uncommon to do that with.

It's happening on a larger scale now. Can you really blame them? I can't. It's a good strategy.



On the same subject, I thought about doing this on a total crap rare from Antiquities just to see if it could be done on a shit rare. People would look at what was happening and the speculators would go nuts as usual. I bet I could drive up the price on just about anything as long as I had rarity on my side no matter how bad it was. there's got to be a rare that there's only about 3000 or so copies of. That's $3000 if it's cheap enough. Imagine.

Just read a few articles on Legacy at Starcitygames, there have been multiple pushers to rebanning Time Spiral there. My guess is that Evan Erwin will probably hype the ban in the next Magic Show as well, I can almost hear his voice now. I am guessing that someone bought out their sets of candelabras. Now they cannot make money on the deck so instead they will push it to be banned. For what it is worth, I am pretty sick of people quoting their prices, but I am more sick of people quoting their analysis. Try not to forget that Starcitygames is a highly vested party in what decks are popular and which ones arent. They are the neck that points our perceptions in specific directions if we let them.

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Originally Posted by TsumiBand

I hope that the "collectors would sue" thing is precisely just a rumor, because otherwise Magic - or rather Eternal formats - is/are prevented from reaching its full potential because someone somewhere doesn't want their collection devalued.

There's more than one quote from Richard Garfield that says he wants the game to reach the level of Poker or Chess. This will never ever ever happen as long as we have formats where "bishops" cost $50.

I'm in the camp where I would pretty much give two shits if the handful of powerful playsets I have (Force of Wills, dual lands, etc) fell to $5 a pop or less, as long as it meant people in my area could feasibly get into the game. T

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This kind of thing is why I spout anti-collector rhetoric whenever possible - and something tells me that isn't actually a rumor. Pretty much any other reason I can think of to maintain the reserved list is just a conspiracy theory involving hasbro wanting to drive up prices for cards they don't make money on or other such bullshit.

I also couldn't care less if my stuff dropped in price (even a lot). Sure I'd be like "I payed a lot for those, oh nooess." But then immediately realize that now a gazillion more people could play legacy, and I'd have lots of people to play against. All the standard players could no longer give the "it's too expensive" excuse when I suggested they switch formats.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

Just read a few articles on Legacy at Starcitygames, there have been multiple pushers to rebanning Time Spiral there. My guess is that Evan Erwin will probably hype the ban in the next Magic Show as well, I can almost hear his voice now. I am guessing that someone bought out their sets of candelabras. Now they cannot make money on the deck so instead they will push it to be banned. For what it is worth, I am pretty sick of people quoting their prices, but I am more sick of people quoting their analysis. Try not to forget that Starcitygames is a highly vested party in what decks are popular and which ones arent. They are the neck that points our perceptions in specific directions if we let them.

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I'm going to quote myself from the combo poll thread to answer this one:

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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar

This is what I like to call "Idiot Magic Player Syndrome" or IMPS for short. Essentially, this complex cosmic theory states that, rather than adapt and metagame to beat a deck they/their pet deck loses to, players will cry for said monstrous, unfair deck to be banhammered. Thus, they remove the need for themselves to excercise their inadequate gray matter and can return to playing *insert bad aggro deck* here without fear of combo-rape.

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The fact that SCG could be behind this for monetary reasons just makes it worse. As for their analysis, I rarely pay any attention to anything from that site for exactly that reason :P.

Not sure this got posted yet: http://www.mananation.com/bubble-bub...s-and-trouble/. Be sure to read the comments.

Great article.

I don't personaly care for proxies, but could they be less harmful if you have a very strict cap on them? Like 4 proxies. I remember playing in several Vintage tournaments where I didnt really care if I won or not, because I could have 13 proxies in my deck. If anything, I was just going to sell the card when I got it.

What TO's need to start doing is holding tournaments for Legacy staples often, like a dual land every week for 1st based on attendace. Some thing set like this

$10 Entry
8-14 players
1st: 1 non blue dual
2nd: 1 ($20 staple)
3rd: Free entry into next weeks tournament (expires if you dont show up next week)

15+ players
1st: 1 Blue dual
2nd: X (40 bucks worth of something
3rd: Free entry into next weeks tournament (expires if you dont show up next week)

I like that idea because it lets you build up a cards over time. Get people with loaner decks and get the standard kids into legacy, just give them the stipulation that if they win, they have to keep the card, or trade it for legacy stuff. Dredge still costs $200. Even Ravager affinity is cheap.

What really hurts legacy is a lack of events.

Proxies KILLED Vintage. NO.

Also, collectors would sue? What kind of shit is that?

There is a thing in modern "art" called graphics, you create quite a few same pictures with a different number.
Lets reffer to those numbers as "editions".

So if a graphics artist prints out 100 of those graphics, then makes another series of the same piece of art. Would
previous buyers sue? I doubt it.

Its shitty excuse.

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Originally Posted by cdr

Not sure this got posted yet: http://www.mananation.com/bubble-bub...s-and-trouble/. Be sure to read the comments.

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I must say that Ben Bleiweiss comes off as a bit of a kook in his replies, trying to refute everything Sean Morgan wrote, when Sean is certainly very well-qualified to discuss economics, and should at least be listened to. Then again, Ben probably took the article as a personal attack.

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Originally Posted by Uly Van Hammer

Great article.

I don't personaly care for proxies, but could they be less harmful if you have a very strict cap on them? Like 4 proxies. I remember playing in several Vintage tournaments where I didnt really care if I won or not, because I could have 13 proxies in my deck. If anything, I was just going to sell the card when I got it.

What TO's need to start doing is holding tournaments for Legacy staples often, like a dual land every week for 1st based on attendace. Some thing set like this

$10 Entry
8-14 players
1st: 1 non blue dual
2nd: 1 ($20 staple)
3rd: Free entry into next weeks tournament (expires if you dont show up next week)

15+ players
1st: 1 Blue dual
2nd: X (40 bucks worth of something
3rd: Free entry into next weeks tournament (expires if you dont show up next week)

I like that idea because it lets you build up a cards over time. Get people with loaner decks and get the standard kids into legacy, just give them the stipulation that if they win, they have to keep the card, or trade it for legacy stuff. Dredge still costs $200. Even Ravager affinity is cheap.

What really hurts legacy is a lack of events.

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A local store here in AZ ran a dual land tournament every week. The only problem was that the people who kept winning were the ones who already had duals. I think that if stores gave out duals as door prizes, the turnout would be better since anyone has a chance at winning it. Or give out a blue dual to the winner and a door prize of a cheaper dual to anyone who didn't Top 4/Top 8.

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Originally Posted by Ziveeman

A local store here in AZ ran a dual land tournament every week. The only problem was that the people who kept winning were the ones who already had duals. I think that if stores gave out duals as door prizes, the turnout would be better since anyone has a chance at winning it. Or give out a blue dual to the winner and a door prize of a cheaper dual to anyone who didn't Top 4/Top 8.

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I have a weekly Legacy right now, with 150 credit guaranteed to top 4/8.

They've run it for four weeks, the decks that took first were:
Junk, TES, TES, 43 Lands.

Aka, people that already have a lot of money / duals. There were other people playing affinity, goblins, etc.

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Originally Posted by Ziveeman

A local store here in AZ ran a dual land tournament every week. The only problem was that the people who kept winning were the ones who already had duals. I think that if stores gave out duals as door prizes, the turnout would be better since anyone has a chance at winning it. Or give out a blue dual to the winner and a door prize of a cheaper dual to anyone who didn't Top 4/Top 8.

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I have a weekly Legacy right now, with 150 credit guaranteed to top 4/8.

They've run it for four weeks, the decks that took first were:
Junk, TES, TES, 43 Lands.

Aka, people that already have a lot of money / duals. There were other people playing affinity, goblins, etc.