2 Nihil SpellbombQuote:
Originally Posted by Cire_dk
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Baleful Strix
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize
1 Force of Will
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Printable View
2 Nihil SpellbombQuote:
Originally Posted by Cire_dk
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Baleful Strix
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize
1 Force of Will
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
RUG and Deathblade are all about board advantage. While card advantage is of secondary importance, which is why people want to side out FOW, the thing that matters most is not falling behind on board. Example: Allowing them to untap with Dark Confidant or "playing around" things out of RUG rather than progressing your board/not using your mana every turn are two ways to lose those matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lim-Dul
Against RUG, I like 2-3 FOWs. Thoughtseize is fine since it's a cheap 1for1, but the lifeloss isn't irrelevant and the games occasionally come down to topdeck wars, which makes Thoughtseize really bad. Cut all the Jaces vs RUG. They are very bad.
Not sure how many FOWs I'd want against Deathblade but it's probably 2. Disfigure helps in both matchups. Whipflare is a little more unwieldy.
Against midrange matchups, the discard is alright but you don't want too much. Against something like Jund or Esper, the games will likely go long, where you'll start drawing useless discard spells. Keeping the full 8 in against something like Jund is a good way to lose.
You want Golgari Charm vs Show and Tell decks to kill Leyline.
Ended up testing a lot against Merfolk because Josh Cho wanted to kill some time before the Invitational. I won most of the games by typically ignoring Aether Vial and focusing on kill their creatures. Hymn to Tourach is pretty good against Tribal Vial decks as long as you aren't getting tempoed out.Quote:
Originally Posted by martijnend
FOW is pretty bad, as is Jace. Kill Lords to make Tarmogoyf a relevant blocker or just race them with Goyf/Deathrite/removal.
Thx a lot for the link.Quote:
Originally Posted by marumari
@Gerry
Thx for sharing your testing experience with us! What is your current list?
I made another 4-1 last Sunday going 2nd at a local tournament with >30. This makes my record now 4-1-1, 4-1-1, 4-1 with this deck in local tournaments with >30 participants.
My list was:
Maindeck:
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Creeping Tar Pit
//Sideboard
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Vindilion Clique
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
Good, that's just about what I thought as well. I was always a bit puzzled about the Vials though, but concentrating on the creatures they vial in seems better indeed. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by GerryT
@1rakete: the complete absence of Baleful Strix in your list is interesting. What is your reasoning behind it? I always think of Strix as one of the best cards in the deck and willing to up the number of Strixes in my 75 from 3 to 4.
My sideboard as it is now:
2 Baleful Strix
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Golgari Charm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Force of Will
2 Chill
1 Maelstrom Pulse
The md is just about average with a 3-1 split between wasteland en tar pit and a 3-2 split between thoughtseize and hymn. No Liliana's main.
Was playtesting with Pierre Sommen's list. Back to mine now, still the same I last gave.Quote:
Originally Posted by marumari
Clearly a metagame decision. Imho Strix is really good in all grindy matchups where you dont face lingering souls, but those became rare around here. So I cut 3 Strix and added 3 Liliana for testing. I liked Liliana a lot, especially since I felt this decks needs more maindeck removal additionally to abrupt decay. But playing Strix is also great in my eyes, I just lack the space for this card atm. I even thought about cutting tarmogoyf for it, but this is a bad idea since goyf is really a key to win vs merfolk and goblins (as GerryT already mentioned).Quote:
Originally Posted by martijnend
What I really would never play in this deck is Hymn. Again, as GerryT mentioned, in a lot of matchups you dont lose because of card disadvantage but because you are behind on the board. With targeted discard, you can aim at the key cards which would really make you lose, with Hymn its a gamble what you hit. Also, the cc1 of thoughtseize is very good for the curve of this deck in my eyes.
so you cut strix because its bad against lingering souls? isn't liliana even worse against souls?..if i was facing souls a lot i would want scavenging ooze and jitte...Quote:
Originally Posted by 1rakete
He simply said that the non-Souls grindy matchups are getting less relevant, not that there are more Lingering Souls decks showing up.Quote:
Originally Posted by metronome2charisma
Liliana is a pretty good card, i don't think that we should argue about that.
For now we got the american non Liliana lists (e.g. GerryT) and the european lists (Lejay, Sommen) with some number of Lilianas between the main and the side.
I have played both versions and i feel both have their merits, there is not really a 'better' list between the two builds.
I was wandering how this deck fares against combo. whats the Mu look like? does it depend on how much discard? is it a toss up? with 3 fow, 2+ thoughtseize and main deck hymn, u would think it would be good but my freinds told me otherwise.
BlackStarDeceiver completely got me right here already. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by metronome2charisma
@noahgs
Preboard you are usually a bit behind (more or less, depeding on the number of FoW and targted discard), with your sideboard you should be able to turn the matchup slightly in your favour. Important: You should have in your sideboard solutions for White Leyline and some instant speed disruption (for example Clique, Mindbreak Trap etc...).
Presb your matchup against Show & Tell decks is bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1rakete
Postsb the matchup is good if they have no Leyline of Sanctity in play. If they have Leyline of Sanctity it depends on your opening hand (discard / counters). Golgari Charm is the best answer to Leyline of Sanctity.
Gerry's list vs European listQuote:
Originally Posted by BlackStarDeceiver
What are the mean differences in matchups? f.e. Is there a matchup that is bad for the Gerry's list that is good for the European list?
I suppose the European list is a bit better against creature heavy decks (Liliana) and Gerry's list is a bit better against combo (more discard).
I can sum it up relatively quickly, even if that will probably be subjective. Gerry focuses more on beating the worst match-ups for the shardless archetype as a whole (mainly combo), heavily sculpting even the main deck with that in mind (much more discards). That also explains cards as unusual as chill for the burn match-up in the sideboard, even if we can present many more justifications to them.
I think my list takes more into account the strenghts and weaknesses of the concept. I try to focus on what the deck does well to have the most synergistic main deck against a delimited field, only counting on the sideboard to improve the combo match-ups. Running non targeted answers in it helps against being limited in slots since I can side the same 11 (or at least 8) cards in many very different match-ups.
These differences simply come from our different philosophies about the archetype. I read/heard several times Gerry say shardless beats everything / loses to nothing, implying it's the best deck in the format. Therefore he thinks he is bound to being strong enough against combo decks game 1 and tries to improve the deck in that direction as long as the percentages gained against combo are clearly more important than the percentages dropped against fair decks.
I personnally consider the deck as the best control deck in a metagame of fair decks (whereas esper/deathblade is the best control for a combo metagame). With that in mind, I'll choose to play the deck in those kinds of metagame and therefore try to build it to optimize the percentages against that field in particular. Even if I don't drop completely the combo match-up game one, it's far lower than with Gerry's MD. However I improve it significantly post sb, and that is often enough. Though of course still lower than Gerry's overall combo %.
If my metagame has lots of combo decks, I just switch to BUG Delver or whatever deck is better suited.
In my experience even the most broken deck cannot win against everything. Even worse, the more you step away from a focused combo game plan and get closer to a control game plan, the less chances you have to win against a wide range of decks since control decks can't be adapted to everything in a format as diverse as legacy. This way of thinking is probably what very often puts me on the combo side.
I feel my approach is more mature. I think so because like many players still do, I used to think the way Gerry does, but years taught me to better consider the differences between metagames. Maybe not playing standard and focusing on legacy also helped realizing that. In such a small format it's far easier to define a best deck.
Edit : ah didn't read everything from your post (edited it ?). Your supposition is good.
I don't think there is a match-up switching from bad to good or the other way around between versions. But there can be some significant changes in terms of percentages.
Surprised no one has brought this up, but I've been running a pair of Glissa, the Traitor in my main these days. She's the bees knees with 4 shardless agents and 4 baleful strix.
That sounds pretty sweet, but is BGG realistically castable?Quote:
Originally Posted by luckme10
You really can't rely on that Glissa. Remember : she's a traitor.
I like the fact that in addition to the effect the body is relevant. As a control deck it prevents even goyfs from attacking. It also survives whipflare. Bad point is it's dead to bolt but there are some lower curve targets for that. I'll test her.
I absolutely love that card as a 1of GSZ target in my 3c Junk list. I understand there's a huge difference in these two decks but I believe the principle still stands that she is a must answer threat. She can single handidly win games against most creature decks, but she absolutely craps on Merfolk if you can't hold them off islandwalk. However she may be a bit awkward in a deck without Zenith, I do believe it's definitely a fringe playable and worth trying here.Quote:
Originally Posted by luckme10
EDIT-Ohran Viper Is another interesting one. Worse against creatures but better against control and combo.
Deathrite is what really made the card more playable. It really can help with the mana stabilization.
In addition, Abrupt Decay gives us that cheap uncounterable removal that allows us to consistently kill creatures from the battlefield a bit more effectively.
You really haven't lived until you've reoccurred a shardless agent to cascade into ancestral visions.
If Glissa is a fringe card, then this deck really build itself around her without even realizing it.
Basically, Glissa plays nice with the artifact creatures, potentially offering even more card advantage, and fits into the control shell very well.
Try it out for yourself.
Im really interested how your list looks like with Glissa MB. Do you play 2 oder 3 of her? How much Strix are you playing?
What is the general strategy against rug? I always seem to have trouble having more than 2-3 lands on board against them with their wastelands and stifles :frown: , making it very hard to play around daze/pierces/snares. For the rug matchup I will just sb out 1 FOW and 3 JTMS for 2 Liliana and 2 baleful strix.