The Long Term future of this format...

This is why I have no interest in playing Modern and why Legacy has a future:

Ancient Tomb
Badlands
Bayou
City of Traitors
Gaea's Cradle
Karakas
Maze of Ith
Mishra's Factory
Plateau
Rishadan Port
Savannah
Scrubland
Serra's Sanctum
Taiga
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Tropical Island
Tundra
Underground Sea
Volcanic Island
Wasteland
Candelabra of Tawnos
Mox Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Sensei's Divining Top (lol)
Smokestack
Choke
Natural Order
Nimble Mongoose
Scavenging Ooze
Sylvan Library
Veteran Explorer
Burning Wish
Chain Lightning
Fireblast
Gamble
Goblin Welder
Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast
Rite of Flame (lol)
Price of Progress
Sulfuric Vortex
Academy Rector
Armaggedon
Enlightened Tutor
Humility
Mother of Runes
Swords to Plowshares
Brainstorm
Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast
Cunning Wish
Daze
Force of Will
Intuition
Meditate
Show and Tell
Jace, the Mind Sculptor (lol)
Ponder (lol)
Stifle
Time Spiral
The Abyss
Cabal Ritual
Cabal Therapy
Dark Ritual
Doomsday
Hymn to Tourach
Nethervoid
Reanimate
Recurring Nightmare
Sinkhole
Tendrils of Agony
Fire//Ice
Pernicious Deed
Vindicate

I am sure that I missed a ton of good cards. The point is that Legacy offers the most diverse cardpool of any eternal format, and Modern will not rival it anytime soon. This card pool means that for every player you can find a deck that fits your interest and play style. Wizards current design philosophy means that you just don't get the same strategic variety that is created by having a plethora of very powerful cards to choose from. There isn't anything wrong with jamming creatures, but having options to interact on different axes makes the game much more interesting and vibrant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

I play Legacy because it's the only format where I'm allowed to shuffle with my beard while I pack my pipe.

Actually new idea: Wizards lifts the ban on alcoholic beverages at Legacy events. It becomes the format played after the FNM crowd has gone to bed and the shades have been drawn. Politicians borrow Forces so they can mingle with power players and social elite. Star City cultivates a team of nationally-renowned bartenders, moves the Legacy start time to Friday night at 8pm, black tie required.

---

As much as Legacy sucks, I can totally get behind this idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Koby

As long as we are allowed to use Chimney Imps as scotch-glass coasters, I'm game.

---

Legacy is the new Baccarat?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kkoie

In my opinion, any Standard Player that balks at investment of getting into Legacy needs to break out a calculator and actually add up the dollars spent playing any type of competative Standard deck over an extended period of time. Standard is by far much more expensive to maintain.

---

Key words. Even if over several years it's more expensive, you don't have to spend as much money at once. You might as well say that anyone who pays for something (e.g. house, car) in installments is being dumb because they'd pay less if they paid for everything immediately.

Plus if you draft you can get relevant cards.

Quote:

---

Why else would wizards support it over all the other formats so much!?

---

Because the foundation of Standard is the most recent sets, meaning that it will lead to booster pack sales far more than any other Constructed format (even if you buy your cards individually, they came out of Booster packs which are making them money in the present rather than in the past). It's also far more newbie-friendly because new players will likely be having cards from the most recent sets anyway.

Humphrey and I speculated in the past about a possible paper Magic Master's Edition, and now there it is... for modern though. If it's the anticipated cashcow for them there is a slim chance that they might do a Legacy Master's ( ok, more likely EDH Master's ). You know, the long anticipated 14.99$ pack including chase Mythics like Deed, Wasteland, Force, Sylvan Library, Karakas, and some modern banned stuff ( SFM, Bitterblossom, Sensei's Top etc ).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by apistat_commander

This is why I have no interest in playing Modern and why Legacy has a future:

Ancient Tomb
Badlands
Bayou
City of Traitors
Gaea's Cradle
Karakas
Maze of Ith
Mishra's Factory
Plateau
Rishadan Port
Savannah
Scrubland
Serra's Sanctum
Taiga
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Tropical Island
Tundra
Underground Sea
Volcanic Island
Wasteland
Candelabra of Tawnos
Mox Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Sensei's Divining Top (lol)
Smokestack
Choke
Natural Order
Nimble Mongoose
Scavenging Ooze
Sylvan Library
Veteran Explorer
Burning Wish
Chain Lightning
Fireblast
Gamble
Goblin Welder
Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast
Rite of Flame (lol)
Price of Progress
Sulfuric Vortex
Academy Rector
Armaggedon
Enlightened Tutor
Humility
Mother of Runes
Swords to Plowshares
Brainstorm
Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast
Cunning Wish
Daze
Force of Will
Intuition
Meditate
Show and Tell
Jace, the Mind Sculptor (lol)
Ponder (lol)
Stifle
Time Spiral
The Abyss
Cabal Ritual
Cabal Therapy
Dark Ritual
Doomsday
Hymn to Tourach
Nethervoid
Reanimate
Recurring Nightmare
Sinkhole
Tendrils of Agony
Fire//Ice
Pernicious Deed
Vindicate

I am sure that I missed a ton of good cards. The point is that Legacy offers the most diverse cardpool of any eternal format, and Modern will not rival it anytime soon. This card pool means that for every player you can find a deck that fits your interest and play style. Wizards current design philosophy means that you just don't get the same strategic variety that is created by having a plethora of very powerful cards to choose from. There isn't anything wrong with jamming creatures, but having options to interact on different axes makes the game much more interesting and vibrant.

---

This this this!

I've been trying to port my decks from Legacy to Modern and black is just so screwed out of the format. No Hymn, no Sinkhole. No Pox! Land Destruction in general is awful, so many strategies are not available.... it would make me sad if Modern somehow overtook Legacy as the eternal format for old players like myself.

-Frog

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by apistat_commander

This is why I have no interest in playing Modern and why Legacy has a future:

Ancient Tomb
Badlands
Bayou
City of Traitors
Gaea's Cradle
Karakas
Maze of Ith
Mishra's Factory
Plateau
Rishadan Port
Savannah
Scrubland
Serra's Sanctum
Taiga
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Tropical Island
Tundra
Underground Sea
Volcanic Island
Wasteland
Candelabra of Tawnos
Mox Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Sensei's Divining Top (lol)
Smokestack
Choke
Natural Order
Nimble Mongoose
Scavenging Ooze
Sylvan Library
Veteran Explorer
Burning Wish
Chain Lightning
Fireblast
Gamble
Goblin Welder
Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast
Rite of Flame (lol)
Price of Progress
Sulfuric Vortex
Academy Rector
Armaggedon
Enlightened Tutor
Humility
Mother of Runes
Swords to Plowshares
Brainstorm
Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast
Cunning Wish
Daze
Force of Will
Intuition
Meditate
Show and Tell
Jace, the Mind Sculptor (lol)
Ponder (lol)
Stifle
Time Spiral
The Abyss
Cabal Ritual
Cabal Therapy
Dark Ritual
Doomsday
Hymn to Tourach
Nethervoid
Reanimate
Recurring Nightmare
Sinkhole
Tendrils of Agony
Fire//Ice
Pernicious Deed
Vindicate

I am sure that I missed a ton of good cards. The point is that Legacy offers the most diverse cardpool of any eternal format, and Modern will not rival it anytime soon. This card pool means that for every player you can find a deck that fits your interest and play style. Wizards current design philosophy means that you just don't get the same strategic variety that is created by having a plethora of very powerful cards to choose from. There isn't anything wrong with jamming creatures, but having options to interact on different axes makes the game much more interesting and vibrant.

---

Yeah, unless i have overlooked it you forgot Bitterblossom (lol)...
But serious: As long as the majority of players still play this format, why should the legacy-scene die? Just keep it alive with your presence at events, and try to show why Legacy is (besides modern, not in a rivalry...sorry for my bad english, hope you understand my intention) an overall attractive and interesting format...
Imo there should be no competition between the two formats, but i see the relevance of the reserved-list, which (based upon which reasons ever, thats not the question) can be a problem for a long term support by WotC, but I seriously can't understand players who try to convice other players to play a different format (aka "Legacy is so expensive, don't play it!", "Vintage, hmmmm, Yawgmoth's win from the Top", "Modern? all cool stuff is banned.") !!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarkJester

Yeah, unless i have overlooked it you forgot Bitterblossom (lol)...
But serious: As long as the majority of players still play this format, why should the legacy-scene die? Just keep it alive with your presence at events, and try to show why Legacy is (besides modern, not in a rivalry...sorry for my bad english, hope you understand my intention) an overall attractive and interesting format...
Imo there should be no competition between the two formats, but i see the relevance of the reserved-list, which (based upon which reasons ever, thats not the question) can be a problem for a long term support by WotC, but I seriously can't understand players who try to convice other players to play a different format (aka "Legacy is so expensive, don't play it!", "Vintage, hmmmm, Yawgmoth's win from the Top", "Modern? all cool stuff is banned.") !!!

---

And Wild Nacatl, Green Sun's Zenith, and Punishing Fire (lololol).

The Legacy scene will never die, but at worst, it may wane in certain regions, especially if SCG discontinues their Legacy Open (unlikely for the foreseeable future). In the meantime, continue to attend events and to support your stores! When I need a card, as long as prices are within reasonable range of competitors, even if slightly more expensive, I will purchase from my local card shops and SCG as long as they hold Legacy events.

The thing I wanted to point out is :
We play an eternal format which gets (marginal) less support compared to a new (not worse) format named Modern, so it's up to us (the actual players) to keep it alive. Keep playing Legacy and the supporters (in USA the biggest support should be SCG as far as I know) keep their support, maybe their suppor may vary during the next years but as long as you keep playing, they'll earn their money or staisfy their WE SUPPORT LEGACY-ideals (last case would be the better one imo ;) )

I honestly don't think that any single large MTG retailer would let an opportunity pass on hosting a Legacy tournament series. If nothing else, it creates a market for which to sell cards which are otherwise not usable in WotC-sponsored/fostered formats.

Would Channel Fireball, Troll & Toad, and ABUgames let such an opportunity lapse if SCG were to suddenly depart from the scene?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by apistat_commander

This is why I have no interest in playing Modern and why Legacy has a future:

<List removed>

I am sure that I missed a ton of good cards.

---

I have a few minor quibbles with the list and a more major quibble. The minor ones first:
1) Choke is Modern legal.
2) You list the dual lands, which should not be included in what you're advocating. Yes, they are not legal in Modern, but your argument is that Legacy has interesting cards that Modern doesn't, which limits things for Modern. The problem is that Modern has the shocklands which serve the exact same purpose. Yes, you have the extra "tapped or 2 life" but you could ban all of the original dual lands in Legacy and it doesn't seem like it's really affect the decks you could construct that much because the shocklands can replace them so easily. Without the dual lands, Canadian Threshold can switch to using Breeding Pools and Steam Vents and play pretty similarly. The loss of, say, Nimble Mongoose, on the other hand, actually makes a real difference in deck construction.

On a more major quibble, I feel it's worth pointing out you can use the same argument for Vintage vs. Legacy. It has a lot of cards Legacy doesn't. Speaking of which...

Quote:

---

The point is that Legacy offers the most diverse cardpool of any eternal format, and Modern will not rival it anytime soon.

---

Except, as I just pointed out, Vintage has a more diverse cardpool than Legacy because it allows more cards. Even if a lot of them can only be played as a 1-of, that's definitely more diversity than in Legacy.

Quote:

---

There isn't anything wrong with jamming creatures, but having options to interact on different axes makes the game much more interesting and vibrant.

---

Is it worth pointing out that the deck that won the Pro Tour (Modern) had zero creatures?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by apistat_commander

This is why I have no interest in playing Modern and why Legacy has a future:

Ancient Tomb
Badlands
Bayou
City of Traitors
Gaea's Cradle
Karakas
Maze of Ith
Mishra's Factory
Plateau
Rishadan Port
Savannah
Scrubland
Serra's Sanctum
Taiga
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Tropical Island
Tundra
Underground Sea
Volcanic Island
Wasteland
Candelabra of Tawnos
Mox Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Sensei's Divining Top (lol)
Smokestack
Choke
Natural Order
Nimble Mongoose
Scavenging Ooze
Sylvan Library
Veteran Explorer
Burning Wish
Chain Lightning
Fireblast
Gamble
Goblin Welder
Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast
Rite of Flame (lol)
Price of Progress
Sulfuric Vortex
Academy Rector
Armaggedon
Enlightened Tutor
Humility
Mother of Runes
Swords to Plowshares
Brainstorm
Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast
Cunning Wish
Daze
Force of Will
Intuition
Meditate
Show and Tell
Jace, the Mind Sculptor (lol)
Ponder (lol)
Stifle
Time Spiral
The Abyss
Cabal Ritual
Cabal Therapy
Dark Ritual
Doomsday
Hymn to Tourach
Nethervoid
Reanimate
Recurring Nightmare
Sinkhole
Tendrils of Agony
Fire//Ice
Pernicious Deed
Vindicate

I am sure that I missed a ton of good cards. The point is that Legacy offers the most diverse cardpool of any eternal format, and Modern will not rival it anytime soon. This card pool means that for every player you can find a deck that fits your interest and play style. Wizards current design philosophy means that you just don't get the same strategic variety that is created by having a plethora of very powerful cards to choose from. There isn't anything wrong with jamming creatures, but having options to interact on different axes makes the game much more interesting and vibrant.

---

All awesome cards. The dual lands are still the lynch pin of the format. Without easy access to those, its impossible to sustain Legacy. The scarcity and price for those cards will continue to increase until it begins to price players out of the market. Even if Legacy is strong now, the future of the format is rather bleak. Escalating costs along with an aging player base that isn't recruiting younger players. This means at some point Legacy will contract and the decline won't be reversible unless something changes either in terms of card availability or new players. Cool cards that allow players to interact on different axes are fine for older players. However, the reason modern is more creature centric is because the younger player base enjoys that more - hence why modern is designed the way it is. It's hard to sell a format where decks can kill on turns 1-3 with freightning consistency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fossil4182

However, the reason modern is more creature centric is because the younger player base enjoys that more - hence why modern is designed the way it is. It's hard to sell a format where decks can kill on turns 1-3 with freightning consistency.

---

Actually, in Modern fast-ish combo decks are currently more successful than really fast combo decks in Legacy. And IMVHO in Modern it's more difficult to hate on combo decks because you don't get FoW and Enlightened Tutor and GSZ toolboxes. In any case, both Legacy and Modern are intended for a segment of the player base who at least acknowledge that there will be good combo decks.

I would hesitate to say that Modern was designed to be creature centric. The more recent sets that make up Modern certainly were, but fortunately the older ones weren't. As for the format itself - do you remember its formative days? It was a bloody mess. They weren't really nudging the format in any specific direction. Instead, when a deck rose above the others, they destroyed it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bilb_o

"We definitely don't want a format that is inaccessible to people, we know it's going to be fun (Modern), it's going to take some time to get them out there but we're doing it."

My take on this was that it's going to take some time to let Legacy get sidetracked by Modern but they made the decision, they created the format and they are going with that.

---

Sorry, I couldn't read the whole thread. I just want to post my thoughts to the above.

I don't know why the Reserved List is in place and how long it will be. I also have the impression that the cards that are on the Reserved List are chosen pretty randomly.
But I think the only real problem with the Reserved List is the Dual Lands. It was a giant mistake that WotC had led the Duals Lands gone out of print in the mid 90's. I guess I will never understand why they did that, because they are so important for the gameplay and they were also so nicely designed (at least I think so).

Also, I think, Modern is a stupid format, it cuts off magic's history. There are no nice Dual Lands in Modern, currently there are even only the enemy colored Fetch Lands in Modern, although I guess they might reprint the Onslaught Fetch Lands in the near future to make them accessible for modern.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lord Seth

I have a few minor quibbles with the list and a more major quibble. The minor ones first:
1) Choke is Modern legal.

---

Got me there.

Quote:

---

2) You list the dual lands, which should not be included in what you're advocating. Yes, they are not legal in Modern, but your argument is that Legacy has interesting cards that Modern doesn't, which limits things for Modern. The problem is that Modern has the shocklands which serve the exact same purpose. Yes, you have the extra "tapped or 2 life" but you could ban all of the original dual lands in Legacy and it doesn't seem like it's really affect the decks you could construct that much because the shocklands can replace them so easily. Without the dual lands, Canadian Threshold can switch to using Breeding Pools and Steam Vents and play pretty similarly. The loss of, say, Nimble Mongoose, on the other hand, actually makes a real difference in deck construction.

---

I disagree here. Paying 2 life to untap your Shock is a very real cost and it certainly doesn't have the same feel as fetching original duals. Just because Lightning Bolt is legal in Modern doesn't mean that Chain Lightning shouldn't also be on my list. My point was that not only are these cards useful from a gameplay perspective they are also fun, iconic, and powerful. Modern will simply never see these cards because they will not ever be reprinted in Standard again. That means that the power level of the format had a cap placed on it from day one.

Quote:

---

On a more major quibble, I feel it's worth pointing out you can use the same argument for Vintage vs. Legacy. It has a lot of cards Legacy doesn't. Speaking of which...

Except, as I just pointed out, Vintage has a more diverse cardpool than Legacy because it allows more cards. Even if a lot of them can only be played as a 1-of, that's definitely more diversity than in Legacy.

---

Vintage may have a more diverse cardpool but the format is defined by decks that play the P9, Workshop, or Bazaar. While it technically has more cards available I would argue that it has far fewer viable archetypes. The presence of such powerful cards simply prevents other cards from being played and this is not true of Legacy. Legacy has a lot of really powerful cards available and this does mean that some decks aren't competitive. However there are probably 30+ Tier 1.5-2 decks that could take down a large tournament given the right conditions. This isn't even taking into account whatever people may brew up themselves. There is simply no other format that boasts the same level of power and diversity as Legacy. It would take many, many years for Modern to have a cardpool that would allow the same diversity as Legacy.

Quote:

---

Is it worth pointing out that the deck that won the Pro Tour (Modern) had zero creatures?

---

I don't have anything against Modern. I could see myself picking up the format at some point if they start having regular tournaments in my area. However I just don't understand why everyone is crying that Modern will be the death of Legacy. Yes it is pretty clear that it is going to be the "Eternal" format that WotC will support in the future. I put Eternal in quotations because Modern is simply lacking many of the powerful, iconic cards that define the real Eternal formats. People enjoy the wonky things that having overpowered and probably unbalanced cards enable in a format. WotC designed Modern so that those sorts of cards wouldn't exist in the format. While this appeals to a certain part of the player base there is another, very sizeable, group of individuals who enjoy playing with (and getting blown out by) powerful old cards. Those are the folks that play Legacy, and will continue play Legacy, because no other format offers the same experience.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DLifshitz

Actually, in Modern fast-ish combo decks are currently more successful than really fast combo decks in Legacy. And IMVHO in Modern it's more difficult to hate on combo decks because you don't get FoW and Enlightened Tutor and GSZ toolboxes. In any case, both Legacy and Modern are intended for a segment of the player base who at least acknowledge that there will be good combo decks.

I would hesitate to say that Modern was designed to be creature centric. The more recent sets that make up Modern certainly were, but fortunately the older ones weren't. As for the format itself - do you remember its formative days? It was a bloody mess. They weren't really nudging the format in any specific direction. Instead, when a deck rose above the others, they destroyed it.

---

I can agree that Combo is one of the more dominate strategies in Modern. However unlike Legacy, the DCI has regularly banned cards to shape Modern in a way it hasn't done with Legacy. Also as you've pointed out, recent printings have suggested a shift toward a creature centric Modern. If combo is still persistent, I would expect new printings from WotC or a round of banning from the DCI that address combo's dominance.

With the increased attention as far as product is concerned (RTR and MM), the DCI will do what it can to make sure Modern isn't dominated by combo. Combo and Counter Magic does not skew well with a younger player base. If it did, there would be more viable control and combo with strategies in Standard. Look at recent B&R updates for Standard (or lack there of); the DCI banned Jace and Stoneforge Mystic but didn't ban Bloodbraid Elf. This should give one an inclination as to what kind of direction the game is heading. The power of creatures has risen at a much greater rate than the power of spells in recent years. There has to be a reason for the rise in the power of creatures and a decline in the power of spells. The only logical conclusion I've been able to reach is WotC believes that a game primarily based around creature interaction is more sustainable and marketable than one based around either combo or control. If WotC is trying to primarily market Modern to current Standard players then it would make sense that Modern's direction will correspond with the direction WotC is taking with Standard.

Quote:

---

Legacy is the new Baccarat?

---

Nothing can be Baccarat, but it can come close. Come to think of it, Legacy Worlds should ALWAYS be held in Monte Carlo...

http://www.popsci.com/files/imagecac...cles/bacc2.jpg

-Matt

I feel that Wizards should give us the same promise that they gave to the collectors for the Reserved List all those years ago, if they want to uphold it. Players should, by and large, always be able to use their cards in a supported format. Magic isn't a collectible that happens to be a game, anymore. It's a game that happens to be collectible, and I don't think that Wizards has done a good job of realizing or supporting that.

Also, I am absolutely terrified of the degree to which we rely on Starcity at the moment. SCG is currently basically substituting for Wizards' lack of Legacy GPs. If SCG moves out of Legacy, for whatever reason, I worry that the format will collapse to Vintage-levels, where you have your little stores here and there that run events, but no wider meta. The language used in the announcement for Modern Masters very much worries me, as it suggests that even though they regard the Reserved List as a huge mistake, they are still unwilling to fix it. At this point, I am concerned that a year from now we may not even have a Legacy format anymore. Remember that next year is Magic's 20th anniversary, so they're probably going to want to make some major changes to the game as a whole.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I feel that Wizards should give us the same promise that they gave to the collectors for the Reserved List all those years ago, if they want to uphold it. Players should, by and large, always be able to use their cards in a supported format. Magic isn't a collectible that happens to be a game, anymore. It's a game that happens to be collectible, and I don't think that Wizards has done a good job of realizing or supporting that.

Also, I am absolutely terrified of the degree to which we rely on Starcity at the moment. SCG is currently basically substituting for Wizards' lack of Legacy GPs. If SCG moves out of Legacy, for whatever reason, I worry that the format will collapse to Vintage-levels, where you have your little stores here and there that run events, but no wider meta. The language used in the announcement for Modern Masters very much worries me, as it suggests that even though they regard the Reserved List as a huge mistake, they are still unwilling to fix it. At this point, I am concerned that a year from now we may not even have a Legacy format anymore. Remember that next year is Magic's 20th anniversary, so they're probably going to want to make some major changes to the game as a whole.

---

This was extremely depressing :cry:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

This was extremely depressing :cry:

---

How do you think my morning's been >_>

Legacy's all I really play anymore, at least seriously. The Rules Council shit all over EDH with their "casual format" bullshit, so I don't even have that to fall back on anymore. I'm staring basically being forced to quit Magic in the face, and I don't like that feeling at all.