Yeah, I've started to run 2 Spellskite md now too, never a dead card every time it's hit the board.
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Yeah, I've started to run 2 Spellskite md now too, never a dead card every time it's hit the board.
Had some downtime today and jammed a few games with my list and made the following changes: -2 Welder MD +2 Spellskite MD, -1 Blast SB +1 Martyr of Ashes SB
Spellskite did good work and I didn't miss the extra Welders at all since I can protect it better with the Skites. Martyr is for those creature decks, and retrospectively I would have liked to have had one in the tournament, for things like DnT's critters and Mongeese and so on. The 8th blast won't really be missed, and the tutorable sweeper is something I could have more effectively used.
The small changes I've made have been dope. I admit that I was wrong for dropping down to only 1 magus. The 2nd one has helped out a lot and Siege Gang has been great as a recruitable Koth. (updated list on my OP)
I've played in 6 online daily events/local store events in my downtime while I switch jobs and I've gone 4-0 once, 3-1 four times, and 0-2 the last. For anyone still interested in the Welder version, this is definitely the best iteration yet. The only bad matchup is mono blue show and tell, but it is beatable. Storm variants are probably around 50-50 but everything else I always feel favored against.
Spellskite certainly has its uses but it has one major flaw. It can only protect grindstone once stone is in play (or your other artifacts). Mono-red has real trouble sometimes finding grindstone. If it gets countered you may not find a 2nd in time while spellskite just sits there protecting Painter for nothing
However, I think moon heavy builds with moxes should play spellskite to protect against decay/floated swords/burn on magus while the less all-in versions should play Welder.
Or just man up and play ALL the moons and welders!
And about Welder, I have the same sentiment but more towards Jaya than Welder itself. Those are all valid points, but I wouldn't go say that Spellskite has a flaw. I wouldn't mind going back up to two Welders but don't really know where to fit it in. Less than seven Blasts seems just wrong, as well as less than two Revokers. Since Spellskite is there to eat a removal spell, less than two also seems counterproductive. I guess the only real room I have is to go down to two Magus, but again that also seems counterproductive. Maybe having extra Spellskites will have to make up for protecting Welder who protects the things that win you the game?
So I have been play testing Imperial Painter the last few weeks and I was hoping to take it to gencon. I've followed the discussion on here for a while and I liked the idea of a white splashed version. I was hoping to get some critique on my list and sideboard:
Creatures: 18
1 Goblin Welder
1 Kargan Dragonlord
4 Painter's Servant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Spells: 22
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Grindstone
4 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Blood Moon
1 Ensnaring Bridge
Lands: 20
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
4 City of Traitors
1 Great Furnace
4 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
Sideboard: 15
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Rest in Peace
1 Spellskite
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Manic Vandal
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Helm of Obedience
So, I was unsure if I am pushing it splashing white and keeping goblin welder. It tends to get sided out a lot against some decks I noticed. Also, I would like to include a spellskite in the main deck, but I am unsure what to cut. The obvious choice for me was Kargan Dragonlord, but he's my maindeck beater when all else fails (I do like the idea of running Siege-gang Commander though). I included 2 obilivion rings in the sideboard to increase my show and tell match-up.
Thoughts, comments, or suggestions?
The reason I like Spellskite more than Welder, is because I worry more about lightning bolts and abrupt decays than counter spells. Spellskite also blocks gooses and other creatures for days.
All real problems for this deck. +1Quote:
Originally Posted by Moomba
Welder is actually strongest against Abrupt Decay. You gain tempo if they kill welder and he counteracts it really well. And a moon effect is a great way to stop Decay. And he is really good against bolt. They still have to kill him. Where he rocks is he negates counter spells and discard. And he doesn't die to the artifact removal which so often comes in during games 2 and 3. I think it is a real mistake to remove the best card in the deck. Just my two cents
Seth
100% agree! Welder has won me so many games around Abrupt Decay and forces/dazesQuote:
Originally Posted by sroncor1
So in light of the comments I cut the Kargan Dragonlord from the main deck, added a spellskite, and cut 1 basic mountain to add an additional great furnace.
So last night was the first night I had painter made up and ready. A R/W build that I will update later once I have both read the rest of the pages here (Up to 7) and played a bit more with it too. So the deck I played in my Local was Elves. I did play Painter to warm up and also after the night was over. Elves hate me, Paint seems to like me.
So I open against U/R/W Delver, Geist of Saint Traft thing that a friend has put together. Thing is nice.
Game one I Drop my Combo and he StP Painter before I get my Mana online to fire off Grindstone. I fetch up another painter, have a Welder online and have my second painter meet the same fate as the first only to a Bolt. I go to find an art I can use to get it back, have to use the Welder to block and live, die two turns after. In Hindsight I should have milled myself. Lesson learnt.
Game two I drop a first turn Stone, meets a FoW, I return a "FoW" of my own. Top a Moon, drop the Moon, drop Imp, fetch painter and game. Then to turony started so we packed up and went to play.
After the last match where my Elves lost, the guy I was playing pulled out his vintage deck (Powered) and stated to Goldfish. Board I pulled out Painter as it was the one deck I had that was already shuffled and I did not want to play Elves again. So we shuffle a bit and sit to play.
Game one, Bob shows a Blightsteel Colossus. I just play control on his threats and let Bob finish the job. (Best win ever)
Game two, A combo hand with counters meets a mass of mana ramp, 2 moxen and a lotus into a Timetwister. I counter the Timetwister and meet Mental Misstep. 7 new cards it is then. I get a fistful of nothing but mana counters and the chance to Bloodmoon. I have nothing to protect it (Due to mana) but I know he just has whatever his deck gave him so I take the shot, he swears, it sticks and the guy behind him stats I just shut off everything he was planing. . Now he has a White and Red Mox with one Red land. Turn two sees him play a Young Pryo, I drop painter. Turn three he has nothing, I drop Jaya. Turn 4 he still has no play and I take out his Mox, then his pyro and beat him to death with two painters while holding 2 counters in hand and blowing up stuff each turn.
For a night that had my elves hating on me, that was a great ending.
Other thoughts.
What do people think of Rakka Mar as an posable aggro out? I am reading that sometimes we become a control deck and that decks like SnT have an out against our combo in a 15/15 thing. I think its a card that you could pull out if you don't need but offers another out if we need it. Sideboard tec anyone?
Also, to those playing R/W, Ethersworn Canonist in the side for me, what do you think? I run her and Thalia. Thinking of dropping Thalia and looking to stick to Canonist for storm hate.
I'm not actually sure if anyone has ever tried rakka mar. It actually looks decent. Try it out and report back.
Canonist is a good choice since its recruitable and e-tutorable.
From your report 1) after painter dies to bolt but before grindstone resolves, weld out grindstone for painter to win.
Or 2) next turn activate grindstone, hold priority, and weld out stone for painter to win. Pretty much the same thing.
Did not think of that. Thank you for the tip. I like it. Also I am planing to run Mar. She has a flare that I have grown to love when playing stompy.
How useful do people here find Welder and what would you way is the optimum number to run with? I have two now, thinking of going to three but to do that I would have to cut a E tutor.
If you're talking about swapping out just one card, give it a whirl and report back. Most here have their own lists anyways, not like iPainter is standardized. I personally think two Welders are good, and three require a build-around strategy.
Well, Going for Welder painter in my view, could include a singleton Gamble and artifact silverbullets like wurmcoil engine or such. Maybe even include MD Ensnaring Bridge. :) The sound of that... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
I played 2, them up to 3, now back to two. The card is great, but I found I was drawing him to early sometimes... No targets for him to have any value. So I'm back to 2. I personally wont go below 2. He's too good when he's active.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Also a great bolt target for some opponents turn 1, into a turn 2 magus or painter.
While I'm not new to painter, I am new to the source. That being said here is my list from GP Strasbourg in April.
So after forever and a day and my friend nagging the hell out of me I'm posting my list and the results and MU as best I can remember. (My toddler ate my notes).
Mana base
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothils
1 Scalding Tarn
3 City of Traitors
3 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
6 Mountain
Artifacts
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Sensi's Divining Top
4 Grindstone
4 Painters Servants
Creatures
1 Magus of the Moon
3 Imperial Recruiter
4 Goblin Welder
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Instant/Sorcery
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
3 Faithless Looting
4 Lightning Bolt
Enchantment
4 Blood Moon
Side Board
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Wichbane Orb
2 Koth of the Hammer
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Trinisphere
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Ensnaring Bridge
I ended GP Strasbourg 5-4 and I think for games I went 10-10.
Round 1 Reanimator
Both games ended very fast. I landed blood moon both time before turn 3.
1-0
Round 2 Jund
Won game 1 with a blood moon. Was to slow for game 2. Game 3 was really long and very close with me getting the combo out for the win.
2-0
Round 3 Stoneblade (I think)
Game 1 I land blood moon and he doesn't draw into more than 2 basic's 1 island and 1 plains. It takes me a while to get everything together because for some reason I'm drawing tons of lands. I end up killing home with a recruiter equipped with the metemorph acting as a batterskull. Game 2 he gets ahead o me with a batter skull again but I can't catch up win for him. Game 3 would have been his. We both start off slow and I'm drawing no lands (go figure right?). I try to do welder shenanigans like I did game 1 but he plays a rest in peace to shut me off. I have something like grindstone, SSG, pyroblast and recruiter in hand. With 2 mountain I play. I thought for a second at the end of his turn after he played the rest in peace an had to call a judge to make sure grindstone would kill him with RIP in play. The judge couldn't tell me that would win me the game but he did tell me that the criteria would not be met. That's all he said. I top decked a land and he did not counter my grindstone so that was game.
3-0
Round 4 counter balance
I honestly don't remember much more than game 3 I had two active grindstones and 6 mountains so I was grinding him for 4-8 cards a turn and win. It made him pretty mad.
4-0
By this time I. Freaking stoked. It was hands down the BEST I have ever done in magic let alone legacy.
Round 5 WUR Delver
I got stomped. I could not keep up at all.
4-1
Round 6 RUG
Again stomped out HARD. To fast for me to keep up.
4-2
For those that don't know in order to make day two I needed to be 7-2. So by now my dreams are headed into the crapper. But I play on.
Round 7 Dark Depths/Vampire Hexmage/Living Wish.....?
Game 1 was.... Different a couple misplays on both our sides but I beat him 2-1. My fire d told me this officially made me a "dream crusher"
5-2
Round 8 BUG
Bug is not in our favor unless we land a VERY early blood moon. I think I was more tierd than my opponent because I attacked with a welder and a servant into a DRS. Had I not I would have won that game. Which in turn cost me the match.
5-3
Round 9 combo elves
I didn't care to much to play anymore and forgot to write drop on my result slip. He won 2-1 with almost no effort.
I understand that there are spelling and grammatical errors and no deck tag but I'm doing this from my phone at my work desk late at night. If anyone doesn't understand why I ran what I ran in what numbers please ask ill do my bet to remember for you.
Also a my side boarding explanation that I used
please keep in mind I have not been able to play a lot in the moths that followed so I can not totally remember why my friend and i made these the cards of choice to bring in and out. Some are self explanatory for the time.
vs Bug Delver
Out
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Painters Servant
1 Sensi's Divining Top
1 Goblin Welder
1 Faithless Looting
In
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 [CARD]Tormod's Crypt
In this matchup the metamorph doesn't copy anything of theirs that's to useful, I used it to copy a delver once pre flip only to find out that he didn't transform. While you lose some search with the out of a top and a faithless tossing out a crypt makes all 4 copies of snapcaster useless. Revokers are almost soley for deathright shaman. If you can drop a turn 1 revoker/BM turn 2 BM/Revoker you will win. The Crypt is totally for goyf and DRS it shuts them off pretty well. Otherwise I think that this is one of our worst match ups.
[DECK]vs Storm
Out
4 [CARD]Blood Moon[/CARD]
1 [CARD]Magus of the Moon[/CARD]
1 [CARD]Phyrexian Metamorph[/CARD]
In
3 [CARD]Trinisphere[/CARD]
3 [CARD]Phyrexian Revoker[/CARD]
[/deck]
This is where your BM and Magus are useless especially if they are on the play. When you can turn 1 a Sphere even on the draw game 1 you set them back until turn 3. Drop a revoker turn 1 for [CARD]Lotus Petal[/CARD] or [CARD]Lion's Eye Diamond[/CARD] you can almost totally shut them off.
[deck]TES
Out
2 [CARD]Blood Moon[/CARD]
1 [CARD]Magus of the Moon[/CARD]
1 [CARD]Phyrexian Metamorph[/CARD]
3 [CARD]Imperial Recruiter[/CARD]
1 [CARD]Lightning Bolt[/CARD]
In
3 [CARD]Trinisphere[/CARD]
3 [CARD]Phyrexian Revoker[/CARD]
2 [CARD]Tormods Crypt[/CARD]
[/deck]
Again most BM effects are to slow for this so we again go for the turn 1 Sphere. The crypts go in to turn off their [CARD]Past in Flames[/CARD] and again revokers are for the [MANA]0[/MANA] artifacts.
[deck]
vs Tinfins
Out
3 [CARD]Red Elemental Blast[/CARD]
3 [CARD]Pyroblast[/CARD]
4 [CARD]Blood Moon[/CARD]
1 [CARD]Magus of the Moon[/CARD]
In
3 [CARD]Trinisphere[/CARD]
3 [CARD]Phyrexian Revoker[/CARD]
3 [CARD]Ensaring Bridge[/CARD]
2 [CARD]Tormods Crypt[/CARD]
[/deck]
Again mostly self explanatory your REB's and PYRO's are useless here as are all your BM effects. If you can get an early bridge or revoker online then Griselbrand can't do anything. Sphere makes all their cantrips and again [MANA]0[/MANA] stuff gets shut down.
[deck]
vs Sneak and Show
Out
1 [CARD]Imperial Recruiter[/CARD]
4 [CARD]Lightning Bolt[/CARD]
4 [CARD]Grindstone[/CARD]
In
4 [CARD]Ensanring Bridge[/CARD]
3 [CARD]Phyrexian Revoker[/CARD]
2 [CARD]Koth of the Hammer[/CARD]
[/deck]
This is where you have to change up the game plan and why the stones come out. Chances are they have an Emmy and then you just go to draw and we don't want that. Revoker on a sneak is a good call to and koth's ultimate is your new win con. Bridges stall out untill you can get that online.
[deck]
vs Omni Show
Out
4 [CARD]Grindstone[/CARD]
2 [CARD]Painters Servant[/CARD]
4 [CARD]Lightning Bolt[/CARD]
In
3 [CARD]Trinisphere[/CARD]
4 [CARD]Ensnaring Bridge[/CARD]
1 [CARD]Jaya Ballard, Task Mage[/CARD]
[/deck]
Sphere shuts off an [CARD]Omnisience[/CARD] on the combo turn. Jaya can give you additional gas if you can get it online to pop their omni. Bridge will shut them out if its got an Emmy but if its mono blue combo you will need something like [CARD]Sudden Shock[/CARD] to kill the [CARD]Labratory Maniac[/CARD] which I do not run personally.
[deck]
vs Elves
Out
3 [card]Red Elemental Blast[/card]
3 [card]Pyroblast[/card]
1 [card]Painters Servant[/card]
In
3 [card]Trinisphere[/card]
4 [card]Ensnaring Bridge[/card]
[/deck]
Elves needs to be shut down as soon as possible. Both times I lost to it was his turn 2. I dont know his exact list but I have looked at some in the elves fourm and it looks pretty stock. Especially with the recent change to the legned rule they can have a ton of mana from playing a new cradle. Sphere makes every elf expensive and bridge makes the [card]Craterhoof Behemoth[/card] pointless to cast as long as you can dump down your hand.
[deck]
vs Esperblade
Out
2 [card]Sensi's Diving Top[/card]
4 [card]Lightning Bolt[/card]
In
3 [card]Phyrexian Revoker[/card]
2 [card]Koth of the Hammer[/card]
1 [card]Jaya Ballard, Task Mage[/card]
[/deck]
Top is less important here than the revoker that you want to drop on stoneforge. If you can and the next one on jitte or battskull. Something thats wonderful is if they are playing SoFaI calling blue on your servant makes it fall off of what ever its on. (keep in mind this was done prior to deathblade but the same principles apply as far as I have seen)
[deck]
vs Counter Miracles
Out
4 [card]Blood Moon[/card]
1 [card]Magus of the Moon[/card]
1 [card]Phyrexian Metamorph[/card]
In
3 [card]Phyrexian Revoker[/card]
2 [card]Koth of the Hammer[/card]
1 [card]Jaya Ballard, Task Mage[/card]/[card]Ensnaring Bridge[/card]
[/deck]
We take out our BM because they run so many lands most of which are basic. Koth provides a bit more speed and mana excell here than just ticking him up to ultimate. Revokers on top are what you want so much here. Some people may ask "Why call top with revoker when you didnt side yours out?" thats perfectly normal to ask and heres why: [card]Goblin Welder[/card]. You can weld away your own revoker at the end of thier turn to get your top back online and then bring him back on your turn to keep them off thier top.
[deck]
vs Rug Delver
Out
1 [card]Phyrexian Metamorph[/card]
1 [card]Sensi's Divining Top[/card]
1 [card]Red Elemental Blast[/card]/[card]Pyroblast[/card]
2 [card]Lightning Bolt[/card]
In
3 [card]Trinisphere[/card]
2 [card]Tormods Crypt[/card]
[/deck]
Again metamorph does nothing for us here so its out. The top doesnt speed us up here as much as we want so we lose the one and bring in the crypt to again hate out goyf, DRS, and snapcaster. Also in this match up a turn 1 Sphere is almost as bad as a turn 1 BM. Mull into either one if you can.
[deck]
vs Death and Taxes (yes we had one of these prior to the GP)
Out
1 [card]Phyrexian Metamorph[/card]
4 [card]Red Elemental Blast[/card]/[card]Pyroblast[/card]
In
3 [card]Phyrexian Revoker[/card]
2 [card]Koth of the Hammer[/card]
[/deck]
The revoker is our winner here call it on [card]Aether Vial[/card] FIRST. Not long after call it on [card]Mangara of Corondor[/card]/[card]Mother of Runes[/card]. We add in Koth here to ping away every single weenie they have in the hopes that they can gain no board control.
This is the best that my friend and I could come up with and between the two of us there isnt much that we dont know. While he is a much better player than I am, I'm a bit more out the box than he is. I hope this helps anyone whos trying to build or adjust thier own list.
I also do not know how to do card tags yet on here but I will learn :)
I think you want to be careful with how your post comes across (at least as I read it). Your post seems like you're trying to write a definitive guide to painter, and not your experience and opinion. There is already a primer on page 1.
For example your stating your SB choices as default fact. I disagree with most of your SB choices in your post. Not bringing in Bridge against RUG Delver just seems silly to me. And crypt only affects goyf. This is IMO.
This thread should be more of a back and forth of our experiences and flexible card choices. Don't try to come into the thread as an authority on the deck.
It affects Mongoose too, but that's beside your point. Agreed that the thread should be more discussion and less primer. Primer has been done thorough and the flex slots in the deck are what drives the thread.