Vs miracle and bug shardless is hard matchup?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
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Vs miracle and bug shardless is hard matchup?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
BUG yes, anything with access to pinpoint removal, like Decay will cause you issues. The best plan there is to take out all the lands of one colour, but if they get a DRS down before you get a Chalice down you are in for a rough time. This is the kind of match that Jar would shine.
Miracles is good, its slow, and that works in our favour. Also most of our deck is 3 CMC and they have a limited amount of those for Counterbalance. The other advantage is that we have so many "Must answer" cards and they only normally have 5 counters in the main. After sideboarding they have Wear//Tear, more Council's Judgement and Engineered Explosives. It is likely they a Council's main and may also have EE main. But they need 3 colours to make EE work. I suggest going hard on Red game one. Often they have at most 3 red sources and you can afford to hammer their fetches each turn until they run out. If the player is smart they will keep a Volcanic in hand until they have an EE to cast, but then if you have them under a Trinisphere they might just not be able to keep a land in hand at all.
The worst part about Miracles though is they have Mentor now. And they can make an army of 1/1 Monks. If you draw a card you can not cast, they can suddenly kill you by attacking with 1/1s that they can buff. This is not a matchup for expensive spells.
In regards Welding Jar, what about Spellskite? Zero is much cheaper than two. But a Spellskite can pull double duty holding off some damage on the ground. I'm not sure that I'd run either. But I would look at Spellskite, too, before jamming the Jar. And then, a large part of me just wants to splash for Goblin Welder at that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I'm unsure of Grim Monolith. I've been toying with a Stax list with a small white splash and there I've noticed a decent correlation of Monolith with loose hands. I did not put in enough reps to thoroughly blame the card. And admittedly it is worse there, as sometimes I needed W. But it came up enough I began to see a pattern in test games. When I was playing a Metalworker Stax list closer to the one above, I moved to a split of Grim Monolith and Thran Dynamo. The repeating three colorless helped when keeping up with my own soot counters and facing down multiple Wasteland. I'm considering now to cut the Grim entirely. Mostly because I want to fit in more business at the expense of mana.
Looking ahead, I'm pretty excited for Walking Ballista somewhere. Undecided on how many to run. It functions as removal early, which I've wanted enough to run Aeolipile. Then, should your opponent choose not to scoop in the face of nigh infinite life, it provides a way to win that turn after going off with Metalworker.
I like Jar because you can get it down on turn one and then protect your lock piece. Your not often going to get a lock piece and a Skite down as fast. But both are worth a test. I like the idea all the same, to protect everything else. Decay is my mortal weakness.
I know what you mean on Monolith. It feels like you should have either 4 or none. But I like it alongside Mox for that shot at turn one glory. After that, the card's value drops like a used car off the lot. I almost never untap it. It feels like a Lotus Petal I later sac to Stax. I still value the increase in turn one options but I agree it is a card that can be removed.
Walking Ballista? I would start with one. You can use it to kill with the combo active right then and there. As we see what it does we can move up or down from that. But right now, I am cutting a Factory to go back to four Ruins and adding one of these.
OK, I can see the value in that. Especially if the recent GP performance pushes folks to try out BUG lists again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Whats about the idea of adding Daretti, Scrap Savant?
The Problem with the Goblin Welder is, that he is dead under the Chalice without Cavern of Souls.
And the loot of the Daretti is also okay.
Adding some Great Furance and it is castable.
Maybe he can bring back the essential pieces agains Decay Decks.
Also you can make action with two Tangle wires.
The idea is sound, the issue I have with it is do you honestly gain enough from the splash. Right now, with BUG around, I think the answer is yes. If you have an idea for a starting list I am happy to work with you on it.
What problem would Daretti solve? Personally, I think he creates more than he solves, even with BUG decks about.
With True-Name Nemesis decks rising in popularity, Brown Stax should focus on a lock around Ensnaring Bridge (at least in my opinion). If you go the red-splash route, I would think Blood Moon would be the draw well before Daretti gets involved. Personally, I've kept my focus on white-splash for access to Armageddon, Council's Judgement, and Sanctum Prelate to combat Abrupt Decay, True-Name Nemesis, and Leovold, Emissary of Trest, all of which are troublesome.
The main draw I see in Daretti is both his immunity to abrupt decay, and his capacity to recover other artifacts that have been decayed (in addition to his ability to dig). The mono-brown version simulates this by having many inventors' fairs and buried ruins, which is incredibly mana intensive.
As far as blood moon goes, I don't see it being maindeck worthy; we don't kill fast enough. Decent in the sideboard for greedy decks, but wastelocking is already effective vs them; I want something that stymies their interaction with my stuff more directly.
The addition of Red for me is a response to the rise of BUG and Decay. I would seeks to add only a small splash, but it is a good way to recover from an early or mid game Decay. Also the addition of sweepers to the side would be useful for those without Tabernacle.
Isn't Abrupt Decay really just another counter, though? You play it and they blow it up for GB instead of countering it for a card and 1 life... I would think as long as your 'threat' density is high enough, a Decay or two shouldn't affect you too much. I think that was one of the things I didn't care for with some of the recent mono-Brown lists - the 'threats' are diluted with some softer locks or simple 'delays' like Tangle Wire (which I still hate in Legacy Stax). Again, I have much more experience with white lists and Karmic Justice has always been too reactive and never good enough. Why not build the deck with the plan of them never being able to play Abrupt Decay? Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, Trinisphere, etc. etc. etc. They all work to keep them off casting it. Throw in some spheres, a Golem, etc. and you may keep them from ever casting it meaningfully.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barachai
I don't mean to oversimplify, but Stax can't really afford to play cards that don't affect the board and their opponent. I feel like Daretti, while immune to Abrupt Decay, requires too many other cards to be useful. Yes, you can get something back - at the cost of another artifact. Yes, he has a built in looting effect, which is powerful in Stax, but is it powerful enough (don't get me wrong, there is something to be said for Bazaar in some Vintage Stax builds)? To me, it feels like win more. If you land Daretti and get a couple activations, I would think you were going to win anyways.
As far as Blood Moon goes, I would agree, it's a strong sideboard option for several match-ups. I could see maindecking it depending on a specific meta. If you face a lot of Leovold decks, it may be worth shutting off their deck Turn 1 or 2.
I still prefer white. Taxes followed by an Armageddon still works. Council's Judgement provides answer to True-Name and Leovold. And Sanctum Prelate can neutralize Abrupt Decay (even when Chalice can't). Black might be another color to evaluate the splash. Chains of Mephistopheles can neutralize Leovold and there are several other splash options to consider (Nether Void, Engineered Plague, etc.).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I have no expirience with adding daretti, but maybe it works.
Another idea which I have with Daretti are Fleetwheel Cruiser.
Maybe it is possible to lock the Enemy fast with Chalice, Trinisphere and Tangle Wire and then you overrun him with Fleetwheel cruiser and with the Daretti you can loot into more Cruiser and you always have a 5/3 haste, trample. Maybe also Ovalchase Dragster is an option. But with it you have to find something to crew. It would be a deck with 4 Factories.
When we add Daretti, it could be also useful to include some Artifacts, which bring tokens, to have more material für Daretti and 4 Smokestacks are possible. Also from time to time with two counters.
Next week after my last tests at the univerity I have more time to work at this deck!
I think with that many decay decks around we should give daretti a chance!
So I guess I could see some of this, but I'm not sure if you're really looking at Stax as much as a Daretti Artifacts deck. Daretti plus a token generator will provide you an advantage to push. Having Servo or Thopter tokens (or other creatures) makes Vehicles worth evaluating. Can you fit all of that into a Stax shell? I'd love to see a test list. I would see it as more viable in Vintage where you have less lands and more room for creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rome
I'm not sure I see enough common board states where I think 'Man, Daretti would solve this'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinSettler
First weekly with Walking Ballista legal. I went 2-2. Losing against burn which seems rough. And Miracles when my land base was two Ancient Tombs for most of the third game. Managed to do 14 to myself. Then lost to a couple V. Clique swings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Ballista seems amazing here. I ran four and will continue to do so.
It comes down as removal early. Stays small to attack through a bridge. And gets pretty nutty with Metalworker. Even without the staff combo. Activate Metalworker for 4 or 8? Counters up.
I found out this week I need direct damage in my store. Sat down across from someone who had just finished his first deck. Tezz. Dack fucking wrecked me and I wanted some way to answer him. My Ballista are still in the mail though.
Where were you planning on slotting them in? I'm between taking out tangle wires or hiding them in the sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
So this is where I am currently, taking some ideas from http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14688&d=288269&f=LE:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Inventors' Fair
3 Buried Ruin
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Mox Diamond
4 Metalworker
2 Mind Stone
1 Staff of Domination
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Bottled Cloister
3 Stax
3 Crucible
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Walking Ballista
Board:
4 Revoker
4 Lodestone
2 Wurmcoil
2 Welding Jar
3 Crypt
I've been looking at the sideboard, and what's been getting at me is what I drop from the 60 post board.
Currently, my plans look something like this, though I am highly skeptical of many of the following:
Delver (grixis):
-3 Stax
-1 Cloister
+4 Revoker
Miracles:
-4 Trinisphere
+4 Revoker
Bug (Delver, True-Name):
-4 Trinisphere
-2 Chalice
+2 Wurmcoil Engine
+4 Revoker
Bug (Shardless/Control):
-4 Trinisphere
-4 Chalice
-2 Ballista
+2 Wurmcoil
+4 Revoker
+4 Lodestone Golem
Sneak Show:
-2 Ratchet Bomb
-2 Ballista
-2 Bottled Cloister
-2 Mind Stone
+4 Lodestone Golem
+4 Revoker
Storm:
-2 Ratchet Bomb
-2 Ballista
-4 Bridge
-2 Cloister
-3 Stax
+4 Lodestone Golem
+4 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Welding Jar
+3 Crypt
Aggro Loam/Jund:
-4 Chalice
-4 Trinisphere
+2 Welding Jar
+2 Wurmcoil Engine
+4 Revoker
Lands:
-3 Trinisphere
-2 Ballista
+2 Welding Jar
+3 Crypt
Elves:
-2 Cloister
-3 Smokestack
-3 Crucible
-2 Mind Stone
+4 Revoker
+4 Lodestone Golem
+2 Welding Jar
I am highly suspicious of my current board, and am further suspicious of my judgements of what to drop in post games. Does anyone more experienced have some advice/wisdom/enlightenment they could share?
Thanks for the update. I missed that Stax put up another result in the Legacy leagues.
Recent thoughts on the deck, I like having a Needle effect main to grab with Inventors’ Fair. As a reaction to Fatal Push I’ve moved to running a split between Pithing Needle and Revoker. On the other hand, it may be useful to provide additional targets to keep the heat off of Metalworker.
I am still very happy with 4 Walking Ballista.
Please let us know how Mind Stone treats you. I have not been feeling 2x Grim Monolith and am currently on a split of 1 Grim Monolith and 1 Thran Dynamo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barachai
In the BUG match ups, I waffle on removing Chalice or Trinisphere and usually end up keeping some of each. I have been keeping Ballista in, even against the more controlling lists. There are usually reasonable targets to pick off. Ballista provides another way to stop Liliana ticking up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barachai
Chalice on 2 seems good in the Loam match. Punishing Fire and Loam are both worth shutting down. I keep Chalice in here.
There are some Chalice v Chalice matchups where the card clearly gets boarded out. But it can still play a role outside of the default Chalice on 1. If you have the play, dropping Chalice on 0 against decks that rely on Moxen or Petals for acceleration can be enough to stay ahead. Thinking of things like Lands and Dragon Stompy here. It also cuts off a free drop in the Smokestack race.
I've had somewhat mixed feelings with ballista, thought maybe it's that I've simply not run into enough matchups where it is relevant. I did recently manage to go double metalworker->ballista to kill a griselbrand, that was funny (though I otherwise question it's usefulness in such a matchup).Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinSettler
Having played on both sides of the aggro loam vs stax matchup, I find chalice on 2 not to be strong enough to keep in. Against lands it's great, but for aggro loam you're mostly turning them off bob; loam isn't critical to their gameplan, and they're likely to board out some amount of pfire. They mostly win on the back of knight and abrupt decay, and postboard they lean on GSZ to find Rec Sage/friends. Mostly my experience against loam is that it is an awful matchup that I'd rather not face ^_^;;
As far as mind stone is concerned, I also look forward to seeing how it treats me, though I suspect I may drop them in favor of more ballista/ratchet bombs.
Played the following for this friday night legacy:
4 Mox Diamond
4 Metalworker
2 Mind Stone
4 Walking Ballista
1 Staff of Domination
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Bottled Cloister
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
3 Inventors' Fair
3 Buried Ruin
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
SB:
4 Revoker
4 Lodestone
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Welding Jar
2 Defense Grid
1 Tormod's Crypt
For Tl;dr: Ballista is awesome, mind stone was basically air and is being dropped in favor of (tentative) mainboard Bombs.
Round 1: BR reanimator (win)
Game 1 win die roll, t1 trinisphere is pretty strong.
-2 Stone -2 Cloister -1 Crucible +1 Crypt +4 Revoker
Game 2 Ensnaring bridge beats random fat creature.
Round 2: BUG Control (win)
Game 1 I believe involved a fast hopeless trinisphere/crucible/stax or something and opponent scoops.
-4 Trinisphere -3 Chalice -1 Gods' Eye +4 Revoker +2 Bomb +2 Jar
Game 2 was amazing, crucible fared poorly vs Shaman and Jace, but a 3/3 Ballista came down and his life became hard. He eventually lands a needle on ballista, metalworker and 1/1 ballista go to battle, eventually find inventors' fair -> Revoker and he dies to beats.
Round 3: Elves! (lose)
Game 1 played 2 ballista for 2, weren't enough, he GSZ for Revoker on my chalice and I die in a flurry of dorks
-3 Crucible -3 Smokestack -2 Mind Stone -2 Cloister +4 Revoker +2 Lodestone +2 Bomb +2 Jar
Game 2 kept a hand that played mox mox land, would have been a turn 2 golem but he thoughtseized. He then proceeded to draw an abrupt decay for every thing I played, and game wasn't particularly close.
Round 4: Infect (lose)
Game 1 I believe was a Bridge->Cloister affair, ballista shot a hierarch, he scoops.
Don't remember boarding
Game 2 Don't remember clearly, I believe a lot of power came my way turn 3 before anything was online
Game 3 Kept a dumb hand with double cloister, didn't get there.
There were 3(!) lands players there tonight, I unfortunately didn't get paired against any of them :(
Sat around with the infect player and modded the deck. Mind stone just felt dumb, dumped them for 2 ratchet bomb's main.
Ballista rocks, was a powerful card for multiple relevant matchups.
Not a fan of lodestone in the side.
Going to try the following board next week (dropping mind stones from main/adding bombs):
1 Powder Keg (in case of needle)
2 Pithing Needle (card is good)
2 Welding Jar
3 Defense Grid
3 Grafdigger's Cage (Elves is hard)
4 Revoker