[Deck] Dark Depths

I am quite disppointed by the combo matchup which is in my meta close to half the decks.
In last top 8 we had 5 decks out of 8 which were combo decks. I mean I can't ignore that anymore.
So I am going to play discard maindec + reb. It weakens the good matchups everythings that is BG but I think they are still favorable
while combo is greatly improved. I cut 3 sylvan scrying and the toxic deluge have been moved to side.
I am on that might play thoughtseize instead of duress, duress is better vs burn the two points of life might matters with sylvan library.
Combo is now favorable (tes, Omni-show, sneak show) with this list but it is obviosuly less consistant so more easy to disrupt.
I suppose this is the way to go.


4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Mana Confluence
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Snow-Covered Forest

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Pithing Needle
3 Not of This World

4 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
1 Sylvan Scrying
4 Sylvan Library

1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress

SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage

1 Marit Lage

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adrieng

I am quite disppointed by the combo matchup which is in my meta close to half the decks.
In last top 8 we had 5 decks out of 8 which were combo decks. I mean I can't ignore that anymore.
So I am going to play discard maindec + reb. It weakens the good matchups everythings that is BG but I think they are still favorable
while combo is greatly improved. I cut 3 sylvan scrying and the toxic deluge have been moved to side.
I am on that might play thoughtseize instead of duress, duress is better vs burn the two points of life might matters with sylvan library.
Combo is now favorable (tes, Omni-show, sneak show) with this list but it is obviosuly less consistant so more easy to disrupt.
I suppose this is the way to go.


4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Mana Confluence
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Snow-Covered Forest

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Pithing Needle
3 Not of This World

4 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
1 Sylvan Scrying
4 Sylvan Library

1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress

SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage

1 Marit Lage

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I did a comparison of your deck to mine and This would explain our varying results. You deck is slower and geared towards a protected 1 all in at once. Mine is slightly faster making it more favorable vs combo but it gets slowed down vs some answers and has less protection. It has recursion to overcome this but sometimes the recursion is too slow. The recursion doubles as a means of card advantage but much slower. Mine can play a grind matchup where as your deck probably gets worse the longer that time goes on. After looking at your main deck it makes sense why you're miracles matchup is a breeze and mine is much harder.

Ideally i think if there was a way to combine the strengths of both of our lists we might find that perfect sweet spot.

http://i.imgur.com/0vvMhJtl.png



I think if i make the folowing changes it will be a good compromise

-bojuka
-karaks
-riftstone portal
-wasteland
-2x entomb

+3x pithing needle
+3x not from this world

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chatto

Congrats!




Your list has some elements I really wanted to incorporate, but didn't know how... It is a list I'm jealous of (in a good way though) and will test to a certain degree for myself. But, 32 land! And still pulling off a t2-3 token? Impressive. I was thinking about a one-of of both Glacial Chasm and Maze of Ith, but never thought about Port. Didn't it feel slow? Why did you choose Mirri's Guile instead of Sylvan Library? Because of cc-reasons? I like how you dropped almost all protection, but would myself go for less land and some sort of protection (probably Decay and Seize)

What is your SB looking like?

Regarding your bad MU's: I never had problems with Painter Stone, but that is because I maindecked Abrupt Decay. 12Post isn't that common in my meta (just one, but I have dodged that one for some time now) The other mentioned MU's are indeed hard

Again, congrats!

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Basic plays available to all builds

T1 urborg
T2 Depths, hexmage -> token

T1 land
T2 depths, crop rotation -> hexmage -> token

T1 urborg
T2 stage
T3 Depths -> token

in addition to the above, my version has many other ways to play t2 tokens. All of these can basically substitute the indicated land for a crop rotation which is a huge bonus to the consistency of this deck. So while it seems like you need the perfect draws you really have a lot of options.

Gamble plays a big role here too. If you have a loam in hand you simply gamble for the land you need or hexmage. sometimes if the wrong card is pulled you are slowed down 1 turn but more often than not your gamble will work out 100% favorably.

Some T2 Token lines of play

T1 Mox Mox Hexmage Depths -> token

T1 mox stage -> into the north
T2 any land -> token

T1 land exploration land
T2 stage depths -> token

T1 mox pitching riftstone (or entomb), play stage
T2 depths -> token


I'm sure there are more ways but as you can see here thats just a handful of T2 tokens and if you have crop rotation you can substitute some of your land draws for those. Getting another Turn typically means using Life from the loam.

Other T3ish Plays

T1 mox, land -> loam OR land -> entomb (targeting Loam)
T2 Dredge, (find stage or depths) Loam -> them to hand
T3 play missing piece and -> Token

T1 mox, land -> exploration, entomb -> loam, Gamble -> combo piece
T2 dredge, so many options here....


One major benefit of exploration / mox is that having a rishadan port on the draw with either of those allows you to "catch up" or swing the game favorably to your tempo instead of always feeling behind.

With adrieng's list having to use expedition map or sylvan scrying slows the deck down 1 turn. I must say that exploration map is better because it can be used using colorless mana which is a small bonus because it enables more t3 tokens

Went 5-1 in our last tornament finished 3rd with four players at 5-1 beat jund 2-0, sneak show 2-0 (won game two thanks to two ratchet bomb where he had a needle and a blood moon), stoneblade 2-1, lost 1-2 to shardless bug, 2-0 Rug tempo (he didnt see wasteand both games), and 2-1 bug tempo.
With discard I have found the deck to be less consistant costed me one game against bug tempo but has access to more hate.
I didnt met others combo decks but there were some one ANTfinished 5-1 one omni-show 4-2 and others.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adrieng

Went 5-1 in our last tornament finished 3rd with four players at 5-1 beat jund 2-0, sneak show 2-0 (won game two thanks to two ratchet bomb where he had a needle and a blood moon), stoneblade 2-1, lost 1-2 to shardless bug, 2-0 Rug tempo (he didnt see wasteand both games), and 2-1 bug tempo.
With discard I have found the deck to be less consistant costed me one game against bug tempo but has access to more hate.
I didnt met others combo decks but there were some one ANTfinished 5-1 one omni-show 4-2 and others.

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are you not finding ratchet bomb too slow? especially if you expect it to blow up a blood moon vs something like S&T or painter?

Also, how did you lose to shard less. That is my versions strongest matchup.

Ratchet bomb does what it is supposed to do ; good against both RUGdelver/Bug tempo by killing needle and delver goys leaving Not of this world, good against blood moon good against elf better than grip against painter killing ALL the blood moon/bridge. Best card in the side.

Show and tell slows down himself with blood moon so you usually have time to blow the moon and with the discard+reb pyro this matchup is not so hard.
(you still have access to needle on sneak attack and reb/pyro for show and tell through moon)


With the inclusion of discard shardless become harder while still positive. Lost game one on the draw with him having double wasteland then agent cascading into ancestral vision, and then letal if I don't make the token, whith him keeping decay as a surpise for my needle + waste, had to fetch for ghost quarter with crop. I made the token to block goyf he gets lili'ed and I died.
Won game two and lost game three with me drawing 4 needle (mull to 6 with a three needle hand library+sejir steppe and copperline gorge) and him having double waste and a meddling mage naming needle ; didn't draw my reb/pyro/ratchet bomb eventually a toxic deluge gets countered and i died.

@ apple 713: I found the following list as played by Kurt Spiess. At first glance, it looks somewhat similar to your list:


Spells (25)
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
3 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam

Lands (35)
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
4 Thespian’s Stage
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Dark Depths

Sideboard (15)
1 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Primeval Titan
1 Crop Rotation
3 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths

I tried to incorporate some 'old tech' with more Lands-oriented cards, and came up with the following list:

Creatures (4)
4 Vampire Hexmage

Spells (18)
2 Into the North
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
4 Life from the Loam

Other (12)
4 Exploration
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Diamond

Land (26)
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Dark Depths
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

I'm not sure about Ghost Quarter: with the exclusion of Pithing Needle I should choose Wasteland. On the other hand, Lotus Petal can be a dead card very fast in this list, so perhaps I should replace it with Pithing Needle. It feels solid, but is perhaps a bit slow. Also, I have no idea what to do for a SB. All in all, it's a rough draft and constructive criticism is welcome, as is help in general :smile:

Edit: I know Mana Confluence is better, but I had CoB already and will get my hands on them as soon as my wallet allows me :wink:
Edit2: yes, the same goes for Gamble: as soon as I am able I will try those. It will definitely speed the deck. Probably do something like -1 LftL, -2 Into the North, -4 Expedition Map +3 Sylvan Scrying, +4 Gamble

Turbo Depths! Went 4-0-1 at my local legacy tourney.

//Artifact (11)
3 Expedition Map
4 Lotus Petal
4 Pithing Needle

//Creature (9)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Vampire Hexmage

//Instant (7)
4 Crop Rotation
1 Negate
1 Spell Pierce
1 Swan Song

//Sorcery (11)
3 Into the North
4 Living Wish
4 Sylvan Scrying

//Tribal Instant (1)
1 Not of This World

//Land (21)
4 City of Brass
3 Dark Depths
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Mana Confluence
1 Snow-Covered Island
3 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dark Depths
2 Golgari Charm
1 Karakas
1 Loaming Shaman
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Maze of Ith
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Yixlid Jailer


The mana could be better, but I'm glad it does well enough without fetches.

This list constantly gets a turn 3 Marit Lage at the very latest undisrupted (e.g. any non blue deck.)

Living wish is friggin' awesome.

Fifth at SCG Somerset this weekend:

G/R Depths by David Long,

Game against Shahar Shenhar: http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/563278238?t=46h30m10s starts at 46:30:19

Lands (35)
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Maze of Ith
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Dark Depths

Spells (25)
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Crop Rotation
3 Punishing Fire
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam

Sideboard
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip
1 Punishing Fire
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Dark Depths

I really don't like that much land, but the shell seems to be quiet good for the deck... I must try it then :smile:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chatto

Fifth at SCG Somerset this weekend:

G/R Depths by David Long,

Game against Shahar Shenhar: http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/563278238?t=46h30m10s starts at 46:30:19

Lands (35)
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Maze of Ith
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Dark Depths

Spells (25)
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Crop Rotation
3 Punishing Fire
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam

Sideboard
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip
1 Punishing Fire
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Dark Depths

I really don't like that much land, but the shell seems to be quiet good for the deck... I must try it then :smile:

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I've found that ~30 lands is good for the deck if not playing manabond. Manabond introduces an interesting dynamic. its situational at best because we run cards like vampire hexmage that we want to cast. decks with manabond flourish when played out to the grundy match ups which is why you are seeing punishing fire. punishing fire does not really solve any problems the deck inherently has. The more you lean to the grundy side the less game you have against combo, as presented in my comparison of adrieng's deck and mine. his preformed better against control due to main deck reb's and not of this worlds. mine performed faster against combo because its just that extra turn or two faster.

@ apple713: I'm trying to find that path between fast and grindy. For instance, getting Marit Lage quick on the table, and also being able to do this a few times in a row (until I can push the damage through). I'm not sure I doing it right, and I didn't had the opportunity to do any testing with friends, but I'm holding on to the list I have for now. Do you still play the same list you posted, or did you changed some after your analysis between Adrieng and your own list?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chatto

@ apple713: I'm trying to find that path between fast and grindy. For instance, getting Marit Lage quick on the table, and also being able to do this a few times in a row (until I can push the damage through). I'm not sure I doing it right, and I didn't had the opportunity to do any testing with friends, but I'm holding on to the list I have for now. Do you still play the same list you posted, or did you changed some after your analysis between Adrieng and your own list?

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i posted my proposed change at the bottom of that graphic chart. I haven't had the opportunity to test it but theoretically it should do well. when i have substantiating data i'll report it.

Last night I went 2-2 with the following list:

Creatures (4)
4 Vampire Hexmage

Spells (15)
3 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Gamble

Other (14)
2 Expedition Map
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
4 Lotus Petal

Land (27)
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
4 Dark Depths
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard (15)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ashen Rider
1 Ghost Quarters
3 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
3 Golgari Charm

Nothing spectaculair. Matches were:

Junk Depths brew with Goyf, Kotr, DRS and Terravore and DD as a secundairy wincon 0-2: g1 he copies my DD, g2 I make a huge misplay and he plays Extirpate on my DD.

Mono Black home brew 2-1: her plan is dropping some fatties like Demigod of Revenge in the GY, then getting them in play. G1 I combo out, G2 she execute her plan by dropping Demigod and getting one for free and in the last game I Extirpate Demigod. She plays another fatty, but she can't answer my Lage.

Manaless Dredge 0-2: a horror-MU. G1 we both have a slow start. Eventually he combos me to death. Of course I board in GY-hate, and very confident start g2. First turn: Lotus Petal, Mox Diamond into Hexmage, and Gemstone Mine with Crop Rotation into DD. He takes the turn, discard samen dredger and passes the turn back. In my combatstep he cycles a creature (Street something), in reaction dredges, and finds Narco-something... He eventually finds another Narco-something and then combos out.

Merfolk home brew, with flying Faeries with flash and counter ability 2-0: Nothing fancy here, he blocks a little, copying my Lage at one stage, but pretty easy round. He then shows me the cards he boarded in, and I was glad he didn't draw them.

Deck plays pretty nice, but I start to think I'm just not that good of a combo-player, and really need to practise more.

I personnaly went 4-1 in last tornament finished first ~26 players.
Beat shardless bug 2-0, affinity 2-1, lost to UWR delver 0-2 with a mistake which costs me game 2, then reanimator BR 2-0, and painter RW 2-0.
I played last list with -1 Not of this world +1 sylvan scrying.

Manaless dredge is a bye, you just need to play sejiri steppe, I even sometimes win games one. You just need to fetch bojuka bog then sejiri steppe to avoid bloquers. I even used to beat this deck with only bojuka bog and 0 grafdigger's cage.

Junk Depths is not so easy, but fine after side with toxic deluge but only 2 not of this world for their karakas.

Someone asked me for sideboard techs.
Went 5-1 in last tornament losing to omni show 2-1 (then we played two preboard games and went 2-0 for fun) then beat burn 2-0 jund 2-0 jund 2-0 death and taxes 2-1 and stoneblade 2-1.


here is my latest list

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Crop Rotation

4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map

4 Sylvan Library
3 Sylvan Scrying
1 Life from the Loam

1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Maze of Ith
1 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Mana Confluence
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Copperline Gorge
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Ghost Quarter

SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 2 Pyroclasm

So I did some little changes on the side again.
I cut completely the not of this world cause they are dead in too many matchups, the one off lftl is awesome.

I don't write extensively the sb techs here is what I do usually :


non white tempo with wasteland : -3 duress +3 ratchet bomb sometimes pyroclasme

with goose : +1 bog -1 library

UR tempo without waste : +2 pyroclasme +1 duress +3 bomb -4 needle -1 library -1 loam

patriot : +3 grudge +1 deluge+1 clasme -3 duress -2 scrying


blade.deck control : +3 grudge +2 deluge depending if you expect some surgical which is way harder for us -2 scrying -2 duress -1 gemstone (depending if they play waste if they do cut a scrying)
you can bring clasme if you see dark confidant


Bug shardless : (depending if they have strix if they do you can bring some grudge)

-3 duress +3 ratchet bomb

miracle : +2 sage +3 bomb +3 grudge -3 scrying -1 copperline gorge -4 kozilek

sneak show : +1 duress/1seize +2 sage +2 bomb -1 loam -1 gorge -3 scrying -1 maze

omni show : -4 needle -1 maze +1duress/1seize/2 sage/1 grudge

elfes : +2 clasme +2 deluge +3 bomb +1duress/1seize -1 steppe -1 maze -1 loam -3 reb -1 library -2 scrying

death and taxes : +3 grudge +2 sage +2 deluge +2 clasme -3 blast -3 duress -1 map -2 scrying

ANT : +1 bog+3 bomb+1duress/1seize -4 needle -1 loam -2 scrying

Painter : +3 grudge +3 bomb+2 sage+2 clasme +1 deluge -1 sejiri -1 maze -1 loam -3 scrying -2 map -3 duress

burn : +2 sage +2 clasme +1 duress +2 grudge+1 bomb -4 needle -1 sejiri -3 reb

Here are the most commons matchups, if you want specific decks tell me.


Top8 a 101 player tornament with latest list beat affinity 2-0, infect 2-1, lost to miracle 1-2 (I played bad though could have won if played better), then shardless bug 2-1, jund 2-1, jund 2-1. Lost in the quarter 1-2 to omni show.
Did bad on sunday 2-3 drop lost to painter 0-2, missplayed though, then 1-2 to RUG tempo missplayed game 3 which costs me the game 3, Standstill UR 2-0, jund 2-0, then death and taxes (japanese version worst matchup with wasteland+ghost quarter+karakas+4 spirit labyrinth+4 leonin arbiter) 1-2.

Someone from cockatrice finished first on 90 people with a list closed to mine (ovino trial) he cut red basically -3 reb for +3 not of this world and a slightly different side but with ratchet bomb and toxic deluge.

Browsing on mtgtop8.com I noticed a dark depths deck made top 8 in Toulouse. Quite sure it was Adrieng's deck.
Could you post a report, I would be very interested.
I'm also curious towards maindeck 4 Sylvan Library's, seems a lot but you probably have good reasons, how did they turn out?

Yeah that was me I am sorry I can't remember how the games went but I wrote the post above which deck I met.
I am testing a blue version but I am not sure it is better (with basically 4 preordain and 4 ponder +3 underground sea -3 scrying -3 reb -4 gorge -1 loam).
I am giving it a try.

EDIT : didnt like the cantrip version testing some brew with delve treasure cruise will post the version if it is good
the reb/pyroblast version is still the best it seems

not much to report but i'm finding that I defiantly like the main board pithing needles, and not of this worlds. Even if not of this world is a dead card in some match ups it covers like 90% of things I'm worried about for free! (karakas, vensur, stp, maze of ith, flicker wisp, repeal, jace, submerge)

things I'm considering is cutting red from the deck because i noticed the only red cards I'm running are gamble, and gamble is only really optimal in recursive strategies which are slower and grave based, both things I'm trying to move away from. If i can cut red, the deck can be BG and have a stronger mana base to fight against blood moon more easily.

i think the only card that comes close to replacing gamble is ancient stirrings.

my other concern about limiting to green / black is SB cards.


what are the best substitutes for
pyroclasm -> toxic deluge
red blasts - ?
ancient grudge -> abrupt decay?
canonists - > trinisphere?

Currently the list I'm playing

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Crop Rotation
1 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
4 Mox Diamond
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Into the North
4 Mana Confluence
3 Pithing Needle
3 Not of This World
4 Ancient Stirrings

SB: 3 Krosan Grip - favored over ancient grudge only because it hits enchantments too - blood moon, counter balance, omniscience, dream halls, sneak attack, enchantress shenanigans | also hits artifacts pithing needle, ensnaring bridge
SB: 4 Ethersworn Canonist - elves, storm, high tide, belcher, all spells, aluren, enchantress
SB: 3 Toxic Deluge - elves, D&T, goblins, zoo, tokens
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast - Anything with blue.. so 90% of format, more specifically S&T, Omni, storm, painter, miracles, delver
SB: 1 Not of This World - anything with karakas / swords to plowshares / bounce, D&T, esper, miracles, maverick, merfolk, 12 post, maybe storm / high tide
SB: 1 Pithing Needle - anything with wastelands / SDT so - miracles, D&T, rug, merfolk, S&T (sneak attack)

I've been thinking that exploration while i love it, may not be necessary. The advantage it provides has significant diminishing returns once your hand is empty because you will never need to exceed your 1 land per turn limit. It's benefit is HUGE because its almost like you get "extra turns" cause of the additional land drops. My analysis now rests in determining whether i won because i landed an early exploration, or i simply would have won despite it being there.

I guess Vesuva does enter with counters, sorry for wasting any time.

Sphere of Resistance or Thorn of Amethyst are probably the best substitutes for canonist. No substitutes for REBs really though. You could run discard I guess.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apple713

things I'm considering is cutting red from the deck because i noticed the only red cards I'm running are gamble, and gamble is only really optimal in recursive strategies which are slower and grave based, both things I'm trying to move away from. If i can cut red, the deck can be BG and have a stronger mana base to fight against blood moon more easily.

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Not sure if recursive strategies are per se slower. You could pack 4x manabond (enabling a turn 1 token), going all in on the graveyard recursion, and pack entomb as an additional tutor. Manabond is a really broken card in conjunction with loam, but makes you vulnerable for gravehate. I think packing 4x Sylvan Library as a counterweight for the graveyarddependance, could work out fine in this deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apple713

I've been thinking that exploration while i love it, may not be necessary. The advantage it provides has significant diminishing returns once your hand is empty because you will never need to exceed your 1 land per turn limit. It's benefit is HUGE because its almost like you get "extra turns" cause of the additional land drops. My analysis now rests in determining whether i won because i landed an early exploration, or i simply would have won despite it being there.

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I dropped Exploration in favor of the old build. I found it was just like you stated: huge advantage, but it felt like I was already combo-ing out without Exploration on the field. Also, I found having four gave me 'dead' draws and I was seriously missing protection.

I think that Exploration and Gamble are better suited in RG Lands.