[Deck] Turbo Depths

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apple713

the issue with bind is that it is more narrow than stifle and much slower. Bind does not provide turn 1 against a wasteland and would require you to have 2 more mana when trying to make your token. This extra turn is a big issue when you are under pressure. additionally, it doesn't hit triggers like miracle, storm, annihilator, Enter the battlefield effects like stone forge mystic, narcomeoba's ability, and tons more. Stifle is superior in every way it could be. with the colorful manabase, it might be better to just run a stifle over bind anyways.

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Ok, I see your points. But every time I splash blue into the deck, it realy feel that the deck looses continuity and focus. It turns into a more controlish deck, witch this is not. This is a combo deck! The deck main focus and priority is to assemble and protect the combo without the use of (somtimes) dead 'one-funtion-only' cards. Stalling/controlling the opponent dosn't suite this deck. The land base is also so sweet when only going BG, having 4 copies of Urborg are priceless in this deck :smile:

https://31.media.tumblr.com/73ef5672...lEn1rvk5ll.jpg
"Marit Lage lies frozen in a glacier's heart. Still her dreams take form in our world, stealing the heat from our souls."
—Halvor Arenson, Kjeldoran Priest

These are some thoughts on the cards I think is a 'must-have' in the deck. All cards has a combo related function and also multi purposes, so it doesnt become a dead-card:

TUTORS:
4 Expedition Map (turn 1 drop):
- Main function: Tutor for the missing combo land-piece

- Alternative use: Colorless castingcost tutor (works under Bloodmoon and Back to Basics)
- Alternative use: 'Swiss army knife' that gets Maze, Ghost, Sejiri

4 Sylvan Scrying:
- Main function: Green Demonic Tutor for the missing combo land-piece, enought said!

- Alternative use: Gets any land, witch Into the North dosn't.
- Alternative use: 'Swiss army knife' that gets Maze, Ghost, Sejiri

4 Crop Rotation:
- Main function: Green Vampiric Tutor for the missing combo land-piece, that puts it into play, enought said!

- Alternative use: Instant 'swiss army knife' that gets Maze, Ghost, Sejiri
- Alternative use: Instant protection from surgical/extirpate, by getting this copy in the safe zone of the battlefield.
- Alternative use: Instant protection from Wasteland, sacrifice in response as (casting cost of crop rotation) and get a new land

4 Sylvan Library:
- Main function: Rearrange the drawstep-card

- Alternative use: Translate life into cards
- Alternative use: Swords to Plowshares on token equals more carddraw
- Alternative use: Fetchland & tutor cards shuffle away non wanted cards

RAMP/SPEED:
4 Deathrite Shaman (turn 1 drop):
- Main function: Manaramp of any color

- Alternative use: Works under Bloodmoon/Back to Basics
- Alternative use: Protects us from Surgical/Extirpate buy always eating you own depths/thesipan
- Alternative use: If opponent has +21 life, we can damage opponent so Marit is '1-hit kill'
- Alternative use: Gains us life to use on Sylvan Library
- Alternative use: Wincondition no 2 (works under Solitary Confinement/Glacial Chasm/Ensnaring Bridge etc)
- Alternative use: Graveyard hate main deck
- Alternative use: Target for opponents Swords to Plowshare, witch is 1 less card to worry about for our token

PROTECTION:
4 Pithing Needle (turn 1 drop):
- Main function: Protects our token from Karakas/Maze/Wasteland

- Alternative: Stops Planeswalkers/Sneakattack/equip:jitte and swords/fetchland/Griselbrand/Vial/Deathrite/Knight of the Reliquary/Thopter etc.

4 Abrupt Decay:
- Main function: Protects us from Blood Moon/Back to Basics/Pithing Needle/Ensaring Bridge etc.

- Alternative use: Removes flying blockers
- Alternative use: Uncounterable spell that removes amost any legacystaple non-land permanent.

4 Duress
- Main function: Removes Swords to Plowshares/Blood Moon/Surgical/Extirpate/Back to Basics/Pithing Needle/Ensaring Bridge etc. from opponents hand

- Alternative use: Shows us if the 'area is clear' to attack with token
- Alternative use: Removes hi-cost (wich Inquisition and decay doesn't) enchantment/artifacts from opponents hand, slows down combo decks
- Alternative use: Stops faster combodecks

COMBO
4 Hexmage:
- Main function: Part of combo

- Alternative use: Kills planeswalkers
- Alternative use: Slows down Vial
- Alternative use: First strike chumpblocker

LANDS:
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Mana Confluence
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Maze of Ith

- 24 lands: 8 green land sources and 12 black (counting only 1 pr Urborg).
- 4 Deathrite should be tanken as an considiration here, he also counts as mana source.
- 1 Basic Forest and Swamp for decay and crop, against Bloodmoon, Wasteland and Back to Basics.
- Only 1 forest and 3 Mana Confluence as protection against submerge.
- Maze can give vigilance to the token by untapping the attacking, witch after you dealt damage but while you are still in the attack step.
- Copy a basic land with Thespian to make it immune to wasteland.

* This post is beeing updated as I progress with my deck-brew.

http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/mtgs...Marit_Lage.jpg
"Our world has not felt her thundering steps in lifetimes, but Marit Lage's presence is still with us."
—Halvor Arenson, Kjeldoran Priest

Quote:

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Originally Posted by t000

Ok, I see your points. But every time I splash blue into the deck, it realy feel that the deck looses continuity and focus. It turns into a more controlish deck, witch this is not. This is a combo deck! The deck main focus and priority is to assemble and protect the combo without the use of (somtimes) dead 'one-funtion-only' cards. Stalling/controlling the opponent dosn't suite this deck.The land base is also so sweet when only going BG, having 4 copies of Thespian are priceless :smile:

These are the thoughts on the cards I think is a 'must-have' in the deck, all cards have multi purposes:

4 Pithing Needle (turn 1 drop):
- Main function: Protects our token from Karakas/Maze/Wasteland

- Alternative: Stops Planeswalkers/Sneakattack/equip:jitte and swords/fetchland/Griselbrand/Vial/Deathrite/Knight of the Reliquary/Thopter etc.

4 Deathrite Shaman (turn 1 drop):
- Main function: Manaramp of any color

- Alternative use: Works under Bloodmoon/Back to Basics
- Alternative use: Protects us from Surgical/Extirpate buy always eating you own depths/thesipan
- Alternative use: If opponent has +21 life, we can damage opponent so Marit is '1-hit kill'
- Alternative use: Gains life to Sylvan Library
- Alternative use: Wincondition no 2 (works under Solitary Confinement/Glacial Chasm/Ensnaring Bridge etc)
- Alternative use: Graveyard hate main deck

4 Expedition Map(turn 1 drop):
- Main function: Tutor for any land

- Alternative use: Colorless castingcost tutor (works under bloodmoon)

4 Hexmage:
- Main function: Part of combo

- Alternative use: Kills planeswalkers
- Alternative use: Slows down Vial
- Alternative use: First strike chumpblocker

4 Sylvan Library:
- Main function: Rearrange the drawstep-card

- Alternative use: Translate life into cards
- Alternative use: Swords to Plowshares on token equals more carddraw
- Alternative use: Fetchland & tutor cards shuffle away non wanted cards

4 Abrupt Decay:
- Main function: Protects us from Blood Moon/Back to Basics/Pithing Needle/Ensaring Bridge

- Alternative use: Removes flying blockers
- Alternative use: Uncounterable spell that removes amost any legacystaple non-land permanent.

4 Crop Rotation:
- Main function: Green Vampiric Tutor that puts it into play, enought said!

4 Sylvan Scrying/Into the North:
- Main function: Green Demonic Tutor, enought said!

4 ???

2 ???

4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
2 ???

I see many of you are using hand distruption (discard) as the last 4-6 cards, but in a mid an late game, i feel they often become dead cards?

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The hand disruption is basically never dead. In the slots left I'm running 6 discard(4 inquisition, 1 duress, 1 slaughter games) and 3 carpet of flowers. Carpet of flowers originally was performing amazingly. The problem is a lot of the decks I want it against are also running black so they can use their fetches as swamps when Urborg is out. Maybe I'll try DRS as an accelerant for every match instead of feast or famine with Carpet. I'm loving the Slaughter Games main. Comes out of no where in some grindy matchups game 1.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by komondor

The hand disruption is basically never dead. In the slots left I'm running 6 discard(4 inquisition, 1 duress, 1 slaughter games) and 3 carpet of flowers. Carpet of flowers originally was performing amazingly. The problem is a lot of the decks I want it against are also running black so they can use their fetches as swamps when Urborg is out. Maybe I'll try DRS as an accelerant for every match instead of feast or famine with Carpet. I'm loving the Slaughter Games main. Comes out of no where in some grindy matchups game 1.

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Ive been giving Deathrite some serious testing now. He works flawlessly for my play style and this deck! Try him out!

And yes Komodor, Slaughter Games sounds werry pormising on the paper. I havent been able to test him out yet, i think Deathrite is enough for Slaughter Games to work...?

What do you use feast or famine for?

I know the landdrop Sejiri Steppe cant be responded to, but have you guys ever thought about this:

Card Name: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Types: Legendary Land
Card Text: Each land is a Swamp in addition to its other land types.


and then I show you this Nighthaze :cool:

Pro:
token becomes unblockable
spell replaces itself (card draw)
only 1cc

Cons:
Needs Urborg in play to bee 100% sure
is sa dead card without the token.
Slow speed (sorcery)

There is also the faster bigbrother Funeral Charm?


Funfacts:

Essence Harvest is also a 'safe' Fling

The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale dosnt hurt our token, she is indestcurtible

I realy miss Thrun, the Last Troll, but Deathrite is is a better second wincon.

Does this work: ??
1. Tap thesipian, target Detphs
2. Activated ability resolves
3. Legendary state-based action triggers
4. Respond
5. Tap Ghost Quarter targeting Depths
6. Resolves
7. Find basic land
8. Legendary state-based action resolves (no depths)

Hmm, that dosnt do anything. There must be a way to cheat the legendary rule. Bounce Depths backt to your hand?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by t000

Does this work: ??
1. Tap thesipian, target Detphs
2. Activated ability resolves
3. Legendary state-based action triggers
4. Respond
5. Tap Ghost Quarter targeting Depths
6. Resolves
7. Find basic land
8. Legendary state-based action resolves (no depths)

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It doesnt work because the Legend Rule is a State-based action, those do not go upon the stack.

704.1. State-based actions are game actions that happen automatically whenever certain conditions (listed below) are met. State-based actions don't use the stack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by t000

lots of stuff...

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essence harvest is not safe. The reason fling / rite of consumption was considered was to make the token, and then cast fling without passing priority so that removal would be ineffective and the only way to defend would be to counter fling.

essence harvest rules - which clearly state it is susceptible to removal. Although it allows you to keep the token if the spell is countered it does nothing to help against removal which was the main point of fling's testing.

5/1/2012 The value of X is determined when Essence Harvest resolves. If you control no creatures that time, no life will be lost or gained.
5/1/2012 Essence Harvest targets only the player. It doesn't target any creatures. If that player is an illegal target when Essence Harvest tries to resolve, it will be countered and none of its effects will happen. No life will be lost or gained.

Deathrite shaman is questionable even though you have raised good points. The traditional list being discussed on this forum does not use fetch land because they weaken the manabase by forcing you to run "forest". Forest leaves you vulnerable to submerge which is free removal in a deck that already poses enough threats, wasteland, stifle, blockers, and a fast clock. Without fetch lands he would be maybe usable half the time, and certainly not reliable.

Even with fetch lands, are the benefits outweighed by the vulnerability it creates? probably not. Although it does draw some removal, the only real removal we care about is swords to plowshares. 12 post won't repeal a DRS. It can hedge the life gain of some decks which is nice and could possibly help put pressure on decks like miracles. Keeps Snapcaster in check.

Also, he enables additional very narrow and circumstantial T2 token generation.

t1: Fetch / bayou / forest -> DRS
T2: Dark depths, {T} DRS (if fetch in grave) -> hexmage; OR
T2: Land - > crop rotation into depths. {T} DRS (land you sacrificed)-> hexmage; OR

T1: Urborg -> DRS
T2: Dark depths, Float :2: {T} DRS (if fetch available) -> crop rotation -> stage

idk maybe further testing is required. I just don't like opening ourselves to more removal since submerge is very prevalent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by t000

What do you use feast or famine for?

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Not the card, the saying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apple713

Deathrite shaman is questionable even though you have raised good points. The traditional list being discussed on this forum does not use fetch land because they weaken the manabase by forcing you to run "forest". Forest leaves you vulnerable to submerge which is free removal in a deck that already poses enough threats, wasteland, stifle, blockers, and a fast clock. Without fetch lands he would be maybe usable half the time, and certainly not reliable.

Even with fetch lands, are the benefits outweighed by the vulnerability it creates? probably not. Although it does draw some removal, the only real removal we care about is swords to plowshares. 12 post won't repeal a DRS. It can hedge the life gain of some decks which is nice and could possibly help put pressure on decks like miracles. Keeps Snapcaster in check.

Also, he enables additional very narrow and circumstantial T2 token generation.

t1: Fetch / bayou / forest -> DRS
T2: Dark depths, {T} DRS (if fetch in grave) -> hexmage; OR
T2: Land - > crop rotation into depths. {T} DRS (land you sacrificed)-> hexmage; OR

T1: Urborg -> DRS
T2: Dark depths, Float :2: {T} DRS (if fetch available) -> crop rotation -> stage

idk maybe further testing is required. I just don't like opening ourselves to more removal since submerge is very prevalent.

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I'm going to do some DRS testing. I honestly haven't had a single submerge played against me but I like to be cognizant of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apple713

essence harvest is not safe. The reason fling / rite of consumption was considered was to make the token, and then cast fling without passing priority so that removal would be ineffective and the only way to defend would be to counter fling.

essence harvest rules - which clearly state it is susceptible to removal. Although it allows you to keep the token if the spell is countered it does nothing to help against removal which was the main point of fling's testing.

5/1/2012 The value of X is determined when Essence Harvest resolves. If you control no creatures that time, no life will be lost or gained.
5/1/2012 Essence Harvest targets only the player. It doesn't target any creatures. If that player is an illegal target when Essence Harvest tries to resolve, it will be countered and none of its effects will happen. No life will be lost or gained.

Deathrite shaman is questionable even though you have raised good points. The traditional list being discussed on this forum does not use fetch land because they weaken the manabase by forcing you to run "forest". Forest leaves you vulnerable to submerge which is free removal in a deck that already poses enough threats, wasteland, stifle, blockers, and a fast clock. Without fetch lands he would be maybe usable half the time, and certainly not reliable.

Even with fetch lands, are the benefits outweighed by the vulnerability it creates? probably not. Although it does draw some removal, the only real removal we care about is swords to plowshares. 12 post won't repeal a DRS. It can hedge the life gain of some decks which is nice and could possibly help put pressure on decks like miracles. Keeps Snapcaster in check.

Also, he enables additional very narrow and circumstantial T2 token generation.

t1: Fetch / bayou / forest -> DRS
T2: Dark depths, {T} DRS (if fetch in grave) -> hexmage; OR
T2: Land - > crop rotation into depths. {T} DRS (land you sacrificed)-> hexmage; OR

T1: Urborg -> DRS
T2: Dark depths, Float :2: {T} DRS (if fetch available) -> crop rotation -> stage

idk maybe further testing is required. I just don't like opening ourselves to more removal since submerge is very prevalent.

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I dident read the errata on essence harvest, its clearly not suited.

Intresting DRS<->token generation cicumstances you have come up with. Espesialy the last one, didnt thin of that, nice. I played alot against ur delver with 3 submerge SB the other day, and I had 1 bayou and 1 forest in my deck. It was not that hard, just have to play around submerge. I used DRS a lot to get my missing green mana, and eating my Depths was nice since he also borded inn 2 surgical and never got to use them on my 'precious'. DRS also won me a game against MUD with Ensaring bridge on the table and won me a game against mono-red burn the same day. I realy like DRS in this deck! Give him a thourow testing apple713, and be posetive while doing so :cool:

I think the basic forest is important so we can cast savage/decay/korsan in case of bloodmoon/b-t-basics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by komondor

Not the card, the saying.



I'm going to do some DRS testing. I honestly haven't had a single submerge played against me but I like to be cognizant of it.

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Aha, ok, Dident know that :) Yea Carpet is feast or famine, DRS are much more stabile pluss MANY more areas of use.

feast or famine
1.(idiomatic) A situation in which something is always either extremely abundant or in extremely short supply

Awsome komondor, you are gonna like him! Me neither, but the other day I played against UR delver, and they have 3 in SB. Read my previous comment on how to evade Sub.

BTW, I would love to have karakas in main deck, but cant see to find any other use for it (except colorless mana) than to bounce opponensts legendary creatures.
Link to serach: http://magiccards.info/query?q=%28c%...2&v=card&s=cmc

Slaughter Games in condjunction with Carpet of Flovers and/or Deathrite Shaman, I find this card amazing agains faster decks that relies on special cards, especialy combodecks. Its a Thoughtseize and Extirpate in one card.

What if we all contributed to make a 'Slaughter Games Legacy Targets List'?

I can start off by naming some suggestions on .decks -> targets:


Tin Fin: Grisselbrand
RG combolands: Life from the Loam
Sneak/Show: Grisselbrand
Miracle: Sensei Devining Top?
Omnitell: Omniscience
Imperial Painter: Painter's Servant
TES: Ad Nauseam?



Tip: Slaughter Games doesn't target the card, it targets the player, so a card having protection won't keep it from being exiled.

Hmm..

Krosan Wayfarer worth looking into?

-Cump blocker
-Instant land drop

Can he be obused some way with green sun maby? Wow! Dosent that almost become a 1G Sylvan scrying that puts the land into into pay? :rolleyes:

Krosan's sister Sakura-Tribe Scout are probably to slow for us? Or is Exploration just as good?

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Both Deathrite Shaman and Vampire Hexmage are shaman's, maby we need 1 of Cavern of Souls?

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I love using Hexmage as an enabler to the combo, she is fast and has first strike. A B/G 2cc turor for hexmage would be nice!

Eladamri's Call ?

- Green White Demonic Tutor, enought said!
- Shaman and Confluence helps to cast him
- Sejiri Steppe and Karakas can go main deck and help with the W casting cost

Riftstone Portal ?

-also boost out G mana source for the Eladamri's Call and the other G tutorcards

Shred Memory?

- its slow
- uncountreble turtor
- gets the most important hexmage
- but decay might also be nedded

Quote:

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Originally Posted by t000

BTW, I would love to have karakas in main deck, but cant see to find any other use for it (except colorless mana) than to bounce opponensts legendary creatures.

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I've ran Karakas quite a bit and honestly it underperforms 99% of the time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by komondor

I've ran Karakas quite a bit and honestly it underperforms 99% of the time.

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Agreed about Karakas. I've relegated it to the sideboard, but even then I wish it was something else half the time. I only bring it as a part of my 75 if I know someone in my meta is playing Reanimator/SnS.

some highlights from Gerry T

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...test-2020.html

It looks very efficient. Congrats by the way @Komondor. I am taking my more Poxy Depths deck I've worked on a lot to a tourney this weekend but will mock up your deck soon and try to gain some familarity with it. I tried the old all in Maritocracy deck, but I still think defence wins championships. However your deck is a honed machine and puts up the results.

What was the single forest in there for again? I get the Submerge thing, and I suppose you could Crop Rotate for it for a green to play a grip against Blood Moon. Fairly narrow, but when you need it you need it.

That's exactly what the forest is for. Also, I think the sideboard is supposed to be 2 Clasm/2 Deluge, but for budget purposes he went with 4 Clasm (I did the same, Deluge isn't cheap on MTGO).

Weird that Deluge would be so expensive. But hey I could afford Tabernacle online, but my Lillies would apparently be even more there.

Went 4-1 in last tornament beating shardless thopter, burn, storm, jund and losing to painter. I played last posted build with carpet.

I am wondering if mishra's factory as one off might be a good idea in the main (leaving the creeping tar pit)
it can answers random things like liliana/edict and is good enough in his own to block creatures and to have a beatdown plan against control decks.
Creeping tar is a bit mana consumming and against control decks they don't have blockers most of the time. So I think I'll try a one off factory in the main cutting maybe a scrying and giving one precious sideboard slot.

I also wonder if choke is a better option than slaughter games ; don't know yet I haven't tested extensively both cards. Slaughter games was ok against miracle but even with carpet a bit slow against combo.decks.
When I look at the options we have against combo the most polyvalent card might be either discard or counters and the more you play the better you stand a chance (but both cards can be answered xantid swarm leyline of sanctity etc...) ; the problem of hate bears is that they are foccused on just one kind off combo even things like containment priest doesn't answer storm/omni.show. gaddock is too colored for our deck and doesn't answer show and tells.

There is also the last rites card which might be good in side against combo but not against miracle maybe a 2/2 split whith slaughter games.


Right now I am brewing a mox opal version don't know yet if it is accurate I mean I just started testing two days ago. I'll tell more if I thik the version is ok.
Mox opal might be better than carpet of flowers if you don't expect so much blue.decks BUT some blood.moon instead.
EDIT : I don't like the mox opal build carpet of flower is way stronger. I played basically tree of tales 2 vault of whisper and 4 relic of Progenitus (in the scrying slot) 3 top main. Mishra's factory seems ok in side in the creeping tar slot.

I am seeing a lot more blood moon myself. Good to have a plan against it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by beez

I am seeing a lot more blood moon myself. Good to have a plan against it.

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I met a couple of Bloodmoon's last weekend, the 4 maindeck DRS with 4 abrupt makes bloodmoon no big deal. The basic lands also helps the 'mana screw'. But I do see apoint with the mox. But you do need 2 cards in your hand for it for be played/work.

** EDIT: i see Adrieng was working on a mox opal version, i was sure he ment mox diamond! So Adrieng, tell us about your artifact brew :)