Her +1 is a card advantage engine, her other abilities produce kill conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
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Her +1 is a card advantage engine, her other abilities produce kill conditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
There is zero chance of her being played in Lands. The engine will already be online if they make it to seven lands so the +1 isn't something novel and the random conditional 4/4's aren't the threat Lands wants. The creature ability is borderline non-existent when all it does is fetch a single forest without even putting it into play.
She would be fine if she magically appeared on the battlefield without investing any resources or a slot in the deck but that's about it.
I just realized that nissa only searches for basic forest... Doesnt lands only run taigas? In nic fit i would just run prime time!
We run a single basic.Quote:
Originally Posted by HdH_Cthulhu
Edit:
Primeval Titan is a far better creature to run in Lands if you want Card Advantage and the cost is something we can afford. Nissa is highly unlikely to see play.
I always chuckle when people pull these idiotic comparisons out of their ass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
Figure of Destiny needs constant mana committed to it. Gideon is a 2/1 for 1 with payable upside (3 for indestructible) and free upside (flip).
Clearly a very good card.
EDIT:Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
Just because there currently isn't a sweet deck for Kytheon yet, doesn't mean its not a legacy power level card. I could see a lot of ways Kytheon could be played. Affinity, Lingering Souls, Goblins, some Zoo variant (just because zoo is currently dead doesn't mean it won't be able to make a comeback).
<snip> Rudeness removed.
Needing two creatures in addition to this guy just to trigger his flip may be too much for him to see play in Legacy. If they had only made it a requirement to have, say, only one other creature in addition to him having attacked, then it might have been more appealing. He's obviously going to be a chase rare in Standard for his entire tenure there, though.
Is this a lame attempt at a joke or do you actually have brain problems?Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
Something between a troll and a jokeQuote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
Although it was only a 26 man tournament, this affinity list won it nonetheless:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9618&d=255265&f=LE
6 LANDS
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Ancient Den
25 CREATURES
4 Frogmite
4 Etched Champion
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Vault Skirge
4 Ornithopter
3 Memnite
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Thoughtcast
15 OTHER SPELLS
4 Mox Opal
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Cranial Plating
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
This list could easily integrate Kytheon as a one drop. The list is already reliant on white sources with the Stoneforge Mystics, and with Mox Opal, Springleaf Drum and Ancient Den it shouldn't be a problem.
I would probably change the Vault Skirge for Signal Pests (depending on how much you need the life) and throw out 1 Thoughtcast and 1 Tezzeret and 1 other card for 3 Kytheon's. This would speed up the clock I think. This deck could flip Kytheon on the second turn. The +1 can untap a creature for blocks or for Springleaf Drum so you can continue to cast spells in your second mainphase.
Will it fit in Miracles or Omniscience? No, but if that's your standard for legacy playable cards I think you're missing both the fun of the format and a sense of reality.
I think if you're going to make a deck with the game plan of attacking with three or more creatures you should focus on Windbrisk Heights. I mean if that isn't legacy playable (which I don't think it is), why would Kytheon, Hero of Akros be?
It's not playable, but fuck damn do I love this card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
The mechanic of the hideaway lands is reasonably strong - effectively spending 3 mana for a free spell. The problem is that the conditions aren't always easy to meet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
A lot of legacy is about synergy between cards. Maybe playing Windbrisk Heights, Signal Pest, Boros Elite, and Kytheon in the same deck will get you something better than trying them individually. (In general, I think that Kytheon and the other cards in that list are too weak for legacy, but time will tell.)
Similarly, I wonder about Gelectrode (or Sensation Gorger) ,Cynder Pyromancer and Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh sharing a deck, but that's not likely to go anywhere either.
That sounds like an enormous pile of shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
I'm trying to figure out what the actual upside of Gideon is in Legacy. I mean I like the card - I like a lot of cards. I like Arrogant Wurm. I like Mystic Enforcer. I like Riding the Dilu Horse. None of these typically make Legacy lists, much to my chagrin. (though I guess Blouses played Dilu Horse, because honestly if there are stronger plays than a 4/4 horsemanship hexproof Angel-creating UW creature I don't fucking want to KNOW OF THEM)
Let's put aside the question of flipping him for a second - he's flipped, boom, great. So what now, random White aggressive deck - are we just spamming the 0 ability and going face? Is there a compelling reason to use either other ability? Like I can see maybe luring a single huge dude away for whatever reason, but the Indestructible ability is kind of assy in a format with StP, PtE, Terminus etc - it may as well just grant pseudo-vigilance, right?
I like the card but I don't think it does anything in Legacy, that's all. Or at least, it doesn't do anything that something else couldn't have done better. A 4/4 indestructible is maybe okay but it begs the question of what you thought you were doing with that aggro deck that made you want to overextend like that.
New Gideon (flipped) is just a worse version of Gideon Jura.Quote:
Originally Posted by TsumiBand
The first ability only forces 1 creature to attack, not the whole team.
The second ability is basically the inverse of the more powerful "-2: Destroy target tapped creature".
And a 4/4 Indestructible is not as good as a 6/6 Indestructible.
But Jura costs :3::w::w: to cast, which means it isn't a Legacy card.
So what is new Gideon's true cost?
Magical Christmas Land would be Kytheon, Memnite, and Ornithopter on turn 1 with your opponent not playing a creature and not having removal.
More likely you'll be spending between :w::w::w: and :2::w::w::w: over the course of 2 or 3 turns to play creatures, then the next turn (3 or 4 most likely) you can attack with the team in an attempt to flip Kytheon, but you'll probably need removal to kill the creature your opponent puts in front of him.
On top of that, Kytheon dies to all removal. And New Gideon dies to Abrupt Decay. And if New Gideon gets bounced, you have to jump through hoops to flip him again.
All the new walkers will be fun in EDH and Standard. One or two may find a home in Modern. These cards were purposefully nerfed.
By getting them to do what you want, you could have just won the game... You need 7 lands to flip Nissa? Isn't 7 lands what Scape-Fit needs to just win the game? :rolleyes:
The difference with this guy is that he costs a single white mana. He is extremely cheap. He only needs a little bit of upside and at W, he could be very playable.
The problem is he doesn't just cost :w:. In order for him to perform as people here are discussing, there is an additional time and mana investment that must be made. Elite Vanguard costs :w:, but it will never be anything more than an Elite Vanguard. But we're expecting more out of this card, and to do that you need to be honest with the cost evaluation. Saying this new Gideon only cost :w: is like saying Student of Warfare only costs :w: for a 4/4 Double Strike.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
We already tried this comparison with Figure of Destiny. It elicited a response of...Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quizzlemanizzle
My point was that if windbrisk is not playable then no way is New Gideon playable.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
----
Just for fun - I came up with this abortion:
4 Windbrisk Heights
4 Mossworth bridge
14 Other lands
4 Emrakul
4 Grizzie
4 Show and Tell
4 Brainstorm
4 Worldly tutor
2 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Bitterblossom
4 Lingering Souls
4 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
4 Stiffle
Saying "needs constant mana committed to it" would imply some sort of until end of turn clause to each of Figure of Destiny's abilities. You're only paying for each ability once. Both are a good examples of how these flip walkers "cost" more than just mana.
A good example of a card with cost beyond mana with a good home in Legacy is Delver of Secrets. In Legacy you could reasonable say the parameters are so easily met, that yes, it is a 3/2 Flying for :u:. Now I never played in Standard, but if it's as creature heavy as it would seem to be, people might have had this same argument; what does it REALLY cost? How often are you going to get the card you want versus the card you paid mana for?