QFT. Dystopia reads:Quote:
Originally Posted by nitewolf9
1BB
Enchantment
Thresh never gets another creature while you smash face with your cheap beaters.
That card is the nut high against them. I'd definitely check it out.
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QFT. Dystopia reads:Quote:
Originally Posted by nitewolf9
1BB
Enchantment
Thresh never gets another creature while you smash face with your cheap beaters.
That card is the nut high against them. I'd definitely check it out.
The best part about dystopia is watching your thresh opponent read it when they don't know what it does. Then you see them start to resemble the guy in the picture.
Dystopia can also get rid of white creatures and enchantments, which can be quite handy from time to time.
There are a few more cards that play along well with Skirge:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Sarcomancy and AEther Vial
I could imagine that Vial could be fun because it can double as creature removal when you suddenly drop Rotting Giants into their 2/2 critters.
Aether Vial does not in any way shape or form belong in Suicide Black. When Suicide Black loses it usually loses from running out of gas/threats, or on occasion because it can't answer something that hit the board. Aether Vial is only going to make the first problem worse while doing nothing to solve the second problem.
Matter of fact, Aether Vial's a pretty shitty card outside of Vial Goblins. I've never seen another deck using it that wouldn't be better if it wasn't using it.
Okay, I'm trying to get my friend into Legacy, and he has a casual deck somewhat resembling Sui Black, so I'm going to try to get him into Legacy by making him a Sui Black list and bringing him with my brother and me to the next tournament we go to. This is a quick list I came up with (keep in mind I'm also trying to make this as budget as possible, so don't suggest adding another color):
// Mana
17 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
// Creatures
3 Dark Confidant
4 Black Knight
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
2 Phyrexian Negator
// Disruption
3 Encroach
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
3 Snuff Out
4 Wasteland
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Phyrexian Negator
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Planar Void
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Dystopia
Some notable choices:
Black Knight - I like him a lot as StP-proof as well as awsome against Gobs.
Snuff Out - I saw it mentioned on here and from testing so far, I love it. The only bad side that I can see is that it is dead vs. the mirror, but I don't think that should be too much of a concern.
Encroach - I saw it mentioned in another thread, and I felt I needed some more turn 1 plays, so I tried this. I haven't got to test it out too much, but it seems okay. I'm sure there is something better though. Before these, I had Stromgald Crusader. I considered Rotting Giant in this spot, but without fetchlands, he is much too hard to maintain. (Plus, I want 1-drops.)
Any budget suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Glad to see people picking up the deck. The list is decent except for a few things.
- Im taking a shot and saying that your playing encroach over sinkhole for budget reasons. If not then definately swap out them for sinkholes.
-hypnotic specter is a crucial card for the deck. The amount of cards this guy takes out over the course of a game is astounding, if this guy swings against combo then its pretty much game over because you will keep their hand extremely low while playing other pieces of control.
- I would probably bump of the confidant and negator 1 each. Dark confidant is the only form of draw this deck has and it is beneficial to run a playset. I wouldnt advocate running 4 negators but 2 of him is inconsistent.
- What do you side in cabal therapy against. if its combo then null rod would seem a better option. If you do put null rod in its place i would only run three because it is dead in multiples and the Eplauge count should be upped by 1.
- Black knight is not need for the goblins matchup. you run 8 1 cc answers to lackey and they all trade with every single one of there creatures. Plus they buy enough time to cast E plauge and if that hits then their creature base is dead.
Where do you play, a mirror match would be pretty amusing to watch/ play.
Edit: Your location says MA... are you going to the 4x Sea Drake thing in Hadley.
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Also it seems that pyroclasm is this decks achilles heel. If goblins boards this card then it can be just as devastating as a E plauge is for them. Goblins has enchantment hate... but does sui black have any answers to Pyroclasm?
I'm seeing practically nonexistent maindecking of Cabal Therapy. If I'm running 20 cheap creatures wouldn't Cabal Therapy be a good maindeck inclusion alongside Hymn and Duress to match the growing paranoia for a combo heavy metagame?
I know this must have been debated and decided long ago with good reason, but why has Cabal Therapy been ostracized to sulk in the sideboard? It just seems so... good.
The biggest problem with Cabal Therapy is that it and Sarcomancy don't get along in the slightest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cidolfus
Also, every card that says "Name a card." on it where to maximize it's use you have to name something in your opponent's deck is by nature much stronger in games 2 and 3 where you have a solid idea of what your opponent is playing. This includes Cabal Therapy, Meddling Mage, and Pithing Needle, and this is a large reason why they're three of the most popular sideboard cards in decks that can run them.
Still, I'd maindeck it if I wasn't still running Unmask (I still love this card even post-Flash.) But I think Therapy versus other cards maindeck completely depends on your skill level with the "Name a card" squad.
Therapy is one of those cards where how well you use it is what separates an average legacy player from a genuine pro. To maximize its efficiency, you have to constantly pay attention to the game and be fully aware of what your opponent's deck is, how he's playing it, and ask yourself "Why hasn't he played the cards in his hand?" From this, a very good player can deduce with a high accuracy rate what's in a player's hand and thereby hit with a blind Cabal Therapy very often.
I speak from personal experience as savage Cabal Therapies, Meddling Mages, and Pithing Needles have won me more matches in tournaments than I can count. I'm by no means on the skill level of a pro and I still make a lot of stupid amateurish mistakes (I can't tell you how many times after years and years of Survival playing I still forget to get Squee back if I'm tired,) but I spent a lot of time practicing focusing on every play an opponent makes and being able to deduce what to name with great consistency. This skill changes Cabal Therapy from being very good to being outright insanity.
Thanks for the explanation, Tacosnape. I play casual legacy, and have little experience with sideboards--I only build sideboards when I'm going to play in a tournament (of which are never legacy, even if it's my favorite format). Since I don't have a sideboard you've convinced me to run Therapy maindeck, if only to improve my own ability to use the card well.
I'm still waffling on maindecking it myself, personally. My only hesitation to do so stems from the fact that even with 19-20 creatures, against some decks I run out of threats. It's not like the insanity of Therapy in Survival where you've got Birds and a bajillion undersized creatures that have already served their purpose once they're in play. Still, though, it is Cabal Therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cidolfus
I plan on simply taking Bill Stark's build and replacing the Unmasks with Cabal Therapies. Bill Stark's build just seems really solid.
So even if the deck doesn't have carddraw and loses card advantage with therapy, it still has 12 pumpable outlets when there's no threats left to play.
i've been tweaking a list for a suicide black deck.
i have to admit that it is not really a "suicide" deck, but well, i haven't found other thread to post this list in :
16 swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Duress
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn To Tourach
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa Jitte
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Phyrexian Negator
3 Order of the Ebon Hand
3 Knight of Stromgald
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant
SB :
4 Engineered Plague
3 Planar Void
3 Dystopia
4 Extirpate
2 Phyrexian Negator
What you guys though about such a list ?
too many pump guys ?
not enought creature removal or disruption ?
So far, my only test was against a friend of mine playing UGr Threshold (he was trying some new tricks and stuff), with no MD pyroclasm, goyf, predict, MD sensei divination top and counterbalance and the basic stuff off UGr thresh (lightning bolt, fledging dragon, FoW...) and it have been good. On thing like 10 matchup, i've won six (12-8 for me). but well, i think that we can't consider this playtest as a real proof.
Holo.
Zombies are incredibly important in sui black. Not just because they are cheap, efficient beaters but because they vastly improve the goblins matchup (nearly unwinnable short of insane dark ritual shenanigans). Your list has no answers to turn 1 lackey (again short of dark ritual) and in tournament play this will cost games and matches.
SoFi is to expensive for sui black. In decks like faerie stompy its fine but in sui black 5 mana to give a creature +2/+2 is not better then playing threats and disruption.
I personally dont like pump guys... especially when you have to pay 2 mana to give 1 power. there good late game but are mediocre early/middle game.
Just my two cents.
at the moment i plan to drop two pump knight and both SOFI to fill the deck with sarcomancy. It is too synergetic with Negator to be avoid. Maybe i'll drop another thing to fill in two other negator, but first i need to test a bit.
About pump knight, they save me soo many time, i can't cut them. i've been killing much creature with two of them on the table, double block with first strike is great. Moreover, with shade and cursed, it make our late game dark ritual gold.
Holo.
I plan that, too, with the exception of keeping Unmask for a while. My changes to the deck so far were:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cidolfus
-4 Wasteland (the deck is too black-intensive)
-1 Umezawa's Jitte (sure, it wins games, but dead cards are never sexy)
+5 Swamp
I added the additional Swamp because i found myself way too often short of mana during goldfishing. What I love about the deck is its ability to turn unused resources (mana) into something useful (damage). Due to that, the additional mana shouldn't hurt.
I agree with replacing the Wastelands with Swamps. However, I still want to run 4 Jittes. They're just too freakin' good. Not to mention that so many decks run them that the additional Jittes could be used as opposing Jitte removal.
Don't forget that the opponent could use their jitte to remove one of your forks that is already in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cidolfus
I was looking over my sideboard and i was thinking about making a slight change for the upcoming sea drake tournament.
-1 dystopia
+1 planar void
Graveyard reliant decks are becoming more popular now and the deck already has a great matchup against the most popular UGW version of threshold. Also I was wondering if people feel it is worth it to sideboard in planar voids against threshold. If so, what cards are weaker against threshold that could be sideboarded out for the plauges. Hymns are normally the first thing I sideboard out against thresh because they greatly strengthen tarmogoyf and mongoose.
Sorry for the double post but i wanted to bring up 2 topics that dont fit into my last post.
First off is the land count. Pretty much 20 is the accepted number for lands in sui black. I often find myself mulliganing more often then with other decks and if you dont get 2 black sources then you are in trouble. If we count wastelands as 1/2 a mana source then we run 18-19 lands. Is that realy enough for this deck, especially if you run pump knights and shades. Some will argue that dark ritual increases the mana count but dark ritual is a one time card. If you rit for a hippie or negator turn 1 and are stuck on 1 land for several turns, you tempo boost would be severely hampered. This is why I ask if 17-18 swamps is enough. I know if I was to increase my land count I would get rid of 1 of my 8 zombies because they are the least important card in my deck (not to say that they arent good, sheer quantity of these have won games by them selves).
Does the new dreadnaught errata pose any problems for this deck? Sui black's removal suite is not hampered by the size of its target so I would think that as long as we have atleast 1 piece of removal we should be set against decks that utilize dreadnaught, because most decks that will use dreadnaught use it as their primary win condition and run few if any other creatures. If we do not happen to have a piece of removal then I believe that this deck is in real trouble because our only way of drawing into removal is confidant and the card advantage it provides is relatively slow compared with the speed of phyrexian dreadnaught.
When reading through the adept question and answer forum, I noticed many state that chrome mox was under-rated and could probably see play in a great many decks it hasn't. I've been testing it out in my sui-black build and I'm quite satisfied.
Chrome mox fits well into mono-colored builds, and suicide black in particular is usualy willing to sacrifice a bit of card-advantage for a boost in tempo. Between 4x Dark Ritual and 3x Chrome Mox I've been really satisfied with that boost in tempo. There are alot of turn 1 plays with Chrome Mox that are splendid. Turn 1 Sinkhole or Hymn to Tourach are powerful. I also appreciate a Turn 1 Dark Confidant (yes I run confidant).
Anyways, I highly recommend it as I can almost rely on a tempo boost with its inclusion. Chrome Mox has easily been pulling its weight.
If the removal seems subpar, the addition or substitution of Smother into the suite might alleviate some of the problems. 2 mana to eradicate almost any Goblin (save obviously Ringleader and SGC), Phyrexian Dreadnought, Tarmogoyf, Werebear, Quirion Dryad, almost any Zoo or Fish threat... I'm not sure how well this deck is going compete in a non-flash metagame as I haven't even played the deck since Flash was banned, but Smother or Snuff out seem easily capable of removing most of the problematic threats in the format, in this deck or in any control decks removal suited.