How Humility Works

This is a question that keeps popping up in my match against hypergenesis because I always draw my singleton Humility when he cascades Hypergenesis:

(Hypergenesis is green.

Suspend 3-{1}{G}{G} (Rather than cast this card from your hand, pay {1}{G}{G} and exile it with three time counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter. When the last is removed, cast it without paying its mana cost.)

Starting with you, each player may put an artifact, creature, enchantment, or land card from his or her hand onto the battlefield. Repeat this process until no one puts a card onto the battlefield.)

Relevant rulings for hypergenesis for this question:
10/15/2006: Anything that triggers during the resolution of this will wait to be put on the stack until everything is put onto the battlefield and resolution is complete. The player whose turn it is will put all of his or her triggered abilities on the stack in any order, then each other player in turn order will do the same. (The last ability put on the stack will be the first one that resolves.)



Show and Tell + Humility + Terrastadon would work in the following way I believe:
Each player puts Humility/Terrastadon simultaneously into play, therefore Terrastadon loses its CiP ability.

However, with Hypergenesis instead of Show and Tell, which says that starting from the active player and followed by the other player, you put things into play in an order (rather than simultaenously), my question is would Terrastadon be able to destroy Humility when:

Player A plays Hypergensis and starts off putting Terrastadon.
Player B puts in Humility.

If I am correct, the following occurs:
- Hypergensis is put on a stack and the sequence follows: Player A puts Terrastadon in play, Player B puts Humility in play in that order.
- Hypergenesis now resolves and all these objects are put into play in the order above.
- Terrastadon comes into play, but Humility isn't in play yet, so it can't blow it up.

Or does it go:
- Terrastadon comes into play
- Terrastadon's trigger on stack
- Humility comes into play
- Terrastadon trigger resolves hitting Humility.

If Player A puts Progenitus, Player B puts Humility, and Player A puts Terrastadon, then Player A still should not be able to destroy humility right? because:
- Progenitus comes into play
- Humility comes into play
- Terrastadon comes into play losing its CiP ability.

Double posting because this is relevant to the first post: Basically the situation above may boil down to this scenario:

Player A: Casts Terrastadon trigger on stack (no targets chosen)
Player B: Casts Humility at instant speed (say with blue Leyline)

Therefore, the orders are:
Terrastadon in play.
Terrastadon trigger on stack.
Humility in play.
Terrastadon trigger resolves/doesn't resolve.

Can Player A still hit Humility? Does the Hypergenesis + Terrastadon + Humility issue boil down to this scenario?

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Originally Posted by crz87

Show and Tell + Humility + Terrastadon would work in the following way I believe:
Each player puts Humility/Terrastadon simultaneously into play, therefore Terrastadon loses its CiP ability.

However, with Hypergenesis instead of Show and Tell, which says that starting from the active player and followed by the other player, you put things into play in an order (rather than simultaenously), my question is would Terrastadon be able to destroy Humility when:

Player A plays Hypergensis and starts off putting Terrastadon.
Player B puts in Humility.

If I am correct, the following occurs:
- Hypergensis is put on a stack and the sequence follows: Player A puts Terrastadon in play, Player B puts Humility in play in that order.
- Hypergenesis now resolves and all these objects are put into play in the order above.
- Terrastadon comes into play, but Humility isn't in play yet, so it can't blow it up.

Or does it go:
- Terrastadon comes into play
- Terrastadon's trigger on stack
- Humility comes into play
- Terrastadon trigger resolves hitting Humility.

If Player A puts Progenitus, Player B puts Humility, and Player A puts Terrastadon, then Player A still should not be able to destroy humility right? because:
- Progenitus comes into play
- Humility comes into play
- Terrastadon comes into play losing its CiP ability.

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You quoted an explanation of the right rule (there are no rulings, only rules, despite what Gatherer still calls them), but you are not correct.

Hypergenesis
Sorcery
Hypergenesis is green.
Suspend 3--1GG
Starting with you, each player may put an artifact, creature, enchantment, or land card from his or her hand onto the battlefield. Repeat this process until no one puts a card onto the battlefield.

Read Hypergenesis - each permanent comes into play as it is chosen. Permanents with ETB triggers will trigger, but triggers aren't put onto the stack until someone would get priority. No one gets priority while a spell is resolving.

If you put Terastadon into play and then your opponent puts Humility into play, when Hypergensis is done resolving Terastadon's ability will be put on the stack and you choose targets for it, which can include Humility.

If your opponent puts Humility into play and then you put Terastadon into play, Terastadon won't trigger since it has no abilities.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crz87

Double posting because this is relevant to the first post: Basically the situation above may boil down to this scenario:

Player A: Casts Terrastadon trigger on stack (no targets chosen)
Player B: Casts Humility at instant speed (say with blue Leyline)

Therefore, the orders are:
Terrastadon in play.
Terrastadon trigger on stack.
Humility in play.
Terrastadon trigger resolves/doesn't resolve.

Can Player A still hit Humility? Does the Hypergenesis + Terrastadon + Humility issue boil down to this scenario?

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If Terastadon's trigger has triggered, it's triggered - removing abilities from Terastadon doesn't change anything.

This example is not a very good analogue of Hypergensis, since in this example people are getting priority so the trigger is both triggering and going on the stack.

I got you thanks cdr but a little last confusion, using your answer and that priority is not passed until a spell is resolving. If you said:

Quote:

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If you put Terastadon into play and then your opponent puts Humility into play, when Hypergensis is done resolving Terastadon's ability will be put on the stack and you choose targets for it, which can include Humility.

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But if it's mentioned in this way, it sounds as if the abilities are put on the stack after the spell is resolved, and Terastadon's ability on the stack can target Humility (which is in play). Then why would the next situation not work?

Quote:

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If your opponent puts Humility into play and then you put Terastadon into play, Terastadon won't trigger since it has no abilities.

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Since given the same argument, abilities are put on the stack after the spell is resolved.

In BOTH situations, it seems that the abilities are put on the stack AFTER spell is resolved AND BOTH Humility and Terrastadon are in play. It seems that it's still the order on whether Terrastadon/Humility came first that changes the outcome. But if abilities are put on the stack AFTER spell is resolved, it shouldn't matter whichever came into play first since regardless of the situation, the ability is still put on the stack upon resolution of the spell.

Just a little lost on this one, but otherwise it makes sense to me.

Again, there are two parts to it - the ability triggering, and the ability being put on the stack. They are not the same thing.

An ability will trigger when its condition is met (like something entering the battlefield). That trigger now exists, but waits to be put on the stack until the next time someone gets priority.

If Terastadon enters the battlefield first, Terastadon's ability has already triggered, so the Humility is irrelevant. If Humility enters the battlefield first, Terastadon has no abilities when it enters the battlefield.

I just want to verify the interaction with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...1&d=1295333654:
If I -1 Tezzeret on an artifact, it will be a 5/5. Then, if Humility enters the battlefield, it will be a 1/1 (with no abilities obviously).
HOWEVER, If Humility is on the battlefield and then Tezzeret's -1 is applied, the creature will be a 5/5 (still with no abilities, obviously).
This is one of those setting P/T based on time stamp situations, Correct?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jason

I just want to verify the interaction with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...1&d=1295333654:
If I -1 Tezzeret on an artifact, it will be a 5/5. Then, if Humility enters the battlefield, it will be a 1/1 (with no abilities obviously).
HOWEVER, If Humility is on the battlefield and then Tezzeret's -1 is applied, the creature will be a 5/5 (still with no abilities, obviously).
This is one of those setting P/T based on time stamp situations, Correct?

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Correct.

If I have already have Humility in play, then I play Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek, and then start activating my Foundry by sacrificing my Sword, do I just get 1/1 guys or 1/1 flying guys?

They won't have Flying.

Quote:

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613.1. The values of an object's characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card. For a token or a copy of a spell or card, that means the values of the characteristics defined by the effect that created it. Then all applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in the following order:
...
613.1f. Layer 6: Ability-adding and ability-removing effects are applied.

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Just to make sure, this makes all Equipment with Living Weapon better, right? They produce either 0/1 or 0/1 Germ tokens to carry them, so Humility changes the Germ tokens to 1/1's, while the equipment still grants the abilities, correct? I'm just testing my knowledge, as I'm about to start playing a G/W casual Enchantress deck with Humility in it. As far as I can tell:

7a: Germ is set at 0/0 or 0/1
7b: Humility sets Germ P/T to 1/1
7c: P/T adjustments given by the equipment

And I know that the abilities granted by the equipment work on a timestamp basis, as per:

613.6d If an Aura, Equipment, or Fortification becomes attached to an object or player, the Aura, Equipment, or Fortification receives a new timestamp at that time.

Just confirming that I'm not crazy. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bayentethene

Just to make sure, this makes all Equipment with Living Weapon better, right? They produce either 0/1 or 0/1 Germ tokens to carry them, so Humility changes the Germ tokens to 1/1's, while the equipment still grants the abilities, correct?

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Basically yes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bayentethene

And I know that the abilities granted by the equipment work on a timestamp basis, as per:

613.6d If an Aura, Equipment, or Fortification becomes attached to an object or player, the Aura, Equipment, or Fortification receives a new timestamp at that time.

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It's a bit more complicated, but generally equipment works very well with Humility.

An example:

Interaction between Humility and Sword of Fire and Ice.

Quote:

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Equipped creature gets +2/+2 and has protection from red and from blue.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, Sword of Fire and Ice deals 2 damage to target creature or player and you draw a card.

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+2/+2
-> Always works, because it happens in a later layer.


protection from red and from blue
-> This depends on the timestamps of Humility and equipping, because it belongs to the same layer.

Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, Sword of Fire and Ice deals 2 damage to target creature or player and you draw a card.
-> Always works, because this is not an ability of the creature, but an ability of the Sword itself.

Thanks muchly for the clarification, Taurelin! I've never rocked Humility in a tournament setting before, and want to make sure I'm on top of my game before I get going. :)

Does humility shut down cards like Meddling Mage and Phyrexian Revoker?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hyc8028

Does humility shut down cards like Meddling Mage and Phyrexian Revoker?

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Since its an "As it enters the battlefield" ability, you can still name a card, though the following clauses will not take effect.

I thought so also, but just to make sure I am correct. Thanks!

Quick question: I know that humility "works" with painter, but does the order in which they're played matter? When one is already on the field, and the other is played, both situations allow for the color-changing effects to happen- right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by laxkiddan

Quick question: I know that humility "works" with painter, but does the order in which they're played matter? When one is already on the field, and the other is played, both situations allow for the color-changing effects to happen- right?

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It doesn't matter which one is played first since it has nothing to do with Timestamps but rather with Rules Layering.

Humility vs Lavaclaw reaches

Layering still gives me serious headache, so ...

Lavaclaw reaches were animated as humility was long in play. Land turned into creature.

What its P/T?

The next step opponent activated pumping ability of animated Lavaclaw reaches. I believe that this land didnt had this ability due Humiliy.

Furthermore I am not sure if it turns back into land at the end of turn, however I just believe this will happen because this ability was sucessfully activated and its last effect will just end upon end of turn.

Under the active Humility, if Lavaclaw Reached was activated to turn into a creature, until the end of turn it would be a 2/2 black and red Elemental with "{X}: This creature gets +X/+0 until end of turn."

This time it had nothing to do with Layering, rather with Time Stamp. Humility has a replacement ability. It replaces all the P/T and abilities of the creatures. Once that's in check, if a creature under an active Humility changes it P/T or gains another ability, it would gain that ability.

In your case, Lavaclaw Reaches wasn't a creature when Humility's ability replacement was in check. It became a creature after that and gained its ability after that. Therefore it retains its P/T and abilities.

The same can be said with artifacts such as Phyrexian Totem or when creatures become targeted by spells such as Vines of Vastwood

It would not gain any new abilities. Humility still takes effect prior to the layer that grant those abilities. It would retain its new P/T settings until EOT however.